Simple Amp

[ski2xblack]

Those are a pretty cool gift to receive. They are also from deep down the audiophile rabbit hole, at least as far as how most folks use them, e.g. with high source impedance amps and such. There is a bit of method to that madness, as an amp with no damping factor to speak of will result in more bass than a typical, near zero output impedance amp would. Examples would be some of the First Watt offerings or some of the more crude tube amp designs. Either of those would be an option if you were to DIY.

If you plan on pairing them with a more normative amp (one with near zero output impedance), I would check to see if the speakers have any sort of BSC (baffle step compensation) in the form of some sort of passive network bits. You may have to pull the driver to determine this. If there is none, as is likely the case, as audionuts don't approve of passive bits in the signal path, you should consider it. TLS can probably give you some specific ideas as to what exact approach to use here. It will make the speakers sound better, IMO.

Also, you mentioned some Salks or equivalent down the road. Those will require more proper amplification, where the Fostex can be driven with just about anything due to their high sensitivity and easy load. You could very well keep the amp limited to "inexpensive and sufficient" for now (everything mentioned upthread so far would qualify, but I would suggest those with tone controls).

 

[marksas]

I would absolutely recommend going with a 2ch integrated over an AVR for starters. You didn't mention if you needed a DAC or not, if do than the previously mentioned Yamaha S"01" series (501 etc) would be a great. If a built in DAC is not necessary and you want a smaller form factor, then I would look for a Rega Brio. There are plenty the previous "R" models on the market in the $500 range, or you can grab the newest model for $995 from Musicdirect and others.
Lastly, for a good but cheap "place holder", check out Emotiva's newest integrated amp, the TA-100.

 

[Kyngfish]

I would absolutely recommend going with a 2ch integrated over an AVR for starters. You didn't mention if you needed a DAC or not, if do than the previously mentioned Yamaha S"01" series (501 etc) would be a great. If a built in DAC is not necessary and you want a smaller form factor, then I would look for a Rega Brio. There are plenty the previous "R" models on the market in the $500 range, or you can grab the newest model for $995 from Musicdirect and others.
Lastly, for a good but cheap "place holder", check out Emotiva's newest integrated amp, the TA-100.

Don't need a DAC. I have one from Cambridge Audio that's supposed to be OK. Right now the biggest thing is simplicity and form factor. The place I'm going to put the setup doesn't have a big entertainment center and the shelves are 12 inches deep.

From what I'm reading and the suggestions on here it looks like the Marantz 5005 on the budget end, and the Cambridge CXA60 at my upper limit are good options. I haven't seen anything about the Rega Brio so I'll check that out. Any input about how it compares to those other two?

EDIT: I just started reading up on the Brio and maybe it's a bit better than the CXA60 - but how does the R compare?

I'm still trying to understand the needs of a full range driver vs standard speakers and why a crude DIY tube amp might fit the bill...

 

[KEW]

I'm still trying to understand the needs of a full range driver vs standard speakers and why a crude DIY tube amp might fit the bill...

It is really not so much about a full range driver as it is about the efficiency of such a large horn cabinet.
The bottom line is your speakers are extremely efficient and don't need much power at all!

I have a friend who has a similar speaker and one day, just for yucks, he wired his iPod earbud output directly to one of his speakers. Though not loud, it actually filled the room!

Most speakers would only make some scratchy noises from an earbud output!

 

[marksas]

Don't need a DAC. I have one from Cambridge Audio that's supposed to be OK. Right now the biggest thing is simplicity and form factor. The place I'm going to put the setup doesn't have a big entertainment center and the shelves are 12 inches deep.

From what I'm reading and the suggestions on here it looks like the Marantz 5005 on the budget end, and the Cambridge CXA60 at my upper limit are good options. I haven't seen anything about the Rega Brio so I'll check that out. Any input about how it compares to those other two?

I'm still trying to understand the needs of a full range driver vs standard speakers and why a crude DIY tube amp might fit the bill...

12" shelves? yikes. How are you considering the Marantz and Cambridge amps that are 15" deep approx? The Rega is slightly less deep but still might be an issue for you. Rega has been around for a long time and make quality components and turntables among other things. Here's a review of the latest model Brio, the older Brio R garnered pretty much the same reviews...
https://www.whathifi.com/rega/brio/review

Another 'less deep' option would be the NAD 316BEE, simple but quality integrated.

If I were in your shoes I would buy or experiment with options that would best fit those speakers and the restricted space you have to work with and not necessarily what's going to be good for 'future' speakers down the road. If you're thinking about a DIY tube amp, than maybe try looking at some of the inexpensive tube amps already on the market, like the Nobsound MS-10D (actually a hybrid amp) or the similar one from Monoprice, also Yaquin, or even Jolida.

 

[TLS Guy]

Those are a pretty cool gift to receive. They are also from deep down the audiophile rabbit hole, at least as far as how most folks use them, e.g. with high source impedance amps and such. There is a bit of method to that madness, as an amp with no damping factor to speak of will result in more bass than a typical, near zero output impedance amp would. Examples would be some of the First Watt offerings or some of the more crude tube amp designs. Either of those would be an option if you were to DIY.

If you plan on pairing them with a more normative amp (one with near zero output impedance), I would check to see if the speakers have any sort of BSC (baffle step compensation) in the form of some sort of passive network bits. You may have to pull the driver to determine this. If there is none, as is likely the case, as audionuts don't approve of passive bits in the signal path, you should consider it. TLS can probably give you some specific ideas as to what exact approach to use here. It will make the speakers sound better, IMO.

Also, you mentioned some Salks or equivalent down the road. Those will require more proper amplification, where the Fostex can be driven with just about anything due to their high sensitivity and easy load. You could very well keep the amp limited to "inexpensive and sufficient" for now (everything mentioned upthread so far would qualify, but I would suggest those with tone controls).

The amp is not critical. I would not use a single ended triode amp though. That approach s loony. A good tube amp between 10 and 20 watts per channel would be fine. A solid state amp will also be fine, especially the little Brio would fit his requirements perfectly.

There is no BSC network, nor is one required. These speakers as I said before need to be placed deep in the corners. I hope he has good corners, that is important. In addition the whizzer cone helps correct for BSC.

The JW driver and the Mark audio drivers also do not need a BSC network. It is taken care of mechanically by the way the cones behave.

I'm most familiar with Lowthers and the JWs. My father had great admiration for Lowther. Neither the Lowthers or properly loaded JW modules sound in the least bit bass deficient.
One of the best features of the Lowthers in fact the bass. It is detailed and light on ts feet from these very low Q drivers. To not spoil it I think would take a custom designed sub. I think pretty much all the subs talked about here would ruin the delicate balance of those speakers. So a sub should be well down the list of requirements.

It is the same with my TLs. Pretty much any sub talked about here would run the effect of my speakers. The bass is just incredibly realistic and articulate and never intrudes.

 

[Kyngfish]

I'm most familiar with Lowthers and the JWs. My father had great admiration for Lowther. Neither the Lowthers or properly loaded JW modules sound in the least bit bass deficient.
One of the best features of the Lowthers in fact the bass. It is detailed and light on ts feet from these very low Q drivers. To not spoil it I think would take a custom designed sub. I think pretty much all the subs talked about here would ruin the delicate balance of those speakers. So a sub should be well down the list of requirements.

Lol - the Rega looks like a good option - you're sort of making me want to buy some Lowthers now, I haven't thought about them in a decade and I was honestly thinking of going for one of the Salk or Philharmonic Slims in a year once I get my house - now you're making me question that. If I did the Lowthers the current cabinet might be A-OK but I might also have to build a new cabinet which, although fun, would only add to the list of projects that includes 2 project cars and an engine rebuild. Off topic, but do Lowthers in a good cabinet compare to the Salks or Philharmonics?

I'm REALLY analog. I like to listen to music in a low-key manner while i eat breakfast or cook or drink coffee. If I want to blast something loud - I have a setup from Bowers and Wilkins that can handle that duty.

This setup is specifically just for me.

 

[Kyngfish]

12" shelves? yikes. How are you considering the Marantz and Cambridge amps that are 15" deep approx? The Rega is slightly less deep but still might be an issue for you.

Yes - totally understood, but since i built the shelves I can modify them, but since it's a floating setup and the wall is pretty empty (and I like it that way) the thought of filling it up with an old school amplifier with a bunch of knobs and lights kind of bums me out.

Obviously the turntable will also present a problem.

I know I'm being difficult here - but I do appreciate all the inputs from people here. I'm trying to walk a balance between the "look" I want, without sacrificing too much quality. Second question really is, is making the leap from 500 to 900 going to give me a huge leap in performance as well. I don't want to spend 1000 on an amp that a year from now could be replaced. But if 1000 will give me something I will conceivably keep instead of place-holding, then let's do it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Lol - the Rega looks like a good option - you're sort of making me want to buy some Lowthers now, I haven't thought about them in a decade and I was honestly thinking of going for one of the Salk or Philharmonic Slims in a year once I get my house - now you're making me question that. If I did the Lowthers the current cabinet might be A-OK but I might also have to build a new cabinet which, although fun, would only add to the list of projects that includes 2 project cars and an engine rebuild. Off topic, but do Lowthers in a good cabinet compare to the Salks or Philharmonics?

I'm REALLY analog. I like to listen to music in a low-key manner while i eat breakfast or cook or drink coffee. If I want to blast something loud - I have a setup from Bowers and Wilkins that can handle that duty.

This setup is specifically just for me.

I would see how you like the Fostex drivers. If you like that sort of sound, then ask Lowther to recommend a suitable driver from their huge number. They are very helpful. Many years ago used to hang out there when the great Donald Chave was in charge.

Now bare in mind I don't use these type of drivers. The down side is a somewhat rough and rising HF response. Lowther in recent years have done a really good job of taming that.

Now the Salks and others will have a smoother mid and HF response.
What I don't like about conventional speakers is the bass. A lot don't and try various approaches like open backed speakers (Saul Linkwitz). I like the reverse tapered aperiodically damped transmission line. I have learned to design them to produce just the realistic natural bass I favor.

Over in the US the mass loaded transmission line like Salk and Philharmonics have had a following. These I regard as modified tuned reflex enclosures. The impedance curves of this type of loading show that the reproduction is resonant. That may or may not bother you. People who have become long adjusted to listening to speakers have become used to and expect resonant reproduction. There are a few hold outs like myself who have not become accustomed to it.

 

[marksas]

Yes - totally understood, but since i built the shelves I can modify them, but since it's a floating setup and the wall is pretty empty (and I like it that way) the thought of filling it up with an old school amplifier with a bunch of knobs and lights kind of bums me out.

Obviously the turntable will also present a problem.

I know I'm being difficult here - but I do appreciate all the inputs from people here. I'm trying to walk a balance between the "look" I want, without sacrificing too much quality. Second question really is, is making the leap from 500 to 900 going to give me a huge leap in performance as well. I don't want to spend 1000 on an amp that a year from now could be replaced. But if 1000 will give me something I will conceivably keep instead of place-holding, then let's do it.

I think I'm seeing your vision now...I've been in a similar situation where sometimes besides good sound you need a certain aesthetic to go with it. Not sure if you already have a turntable, but I could certainly picture a sleek Rega turntable and the clean looking Rega Brio sitting on that shelf together! Btw, the Rega has a phono input. I can't compare the two Brio models as I haven't owned them, but I was VERY close to buying the new one recently, so I did tons of research on them. The 2017 model is still very new so there's not a ton of data out there yet, but those who have listened all say it's a step up from the previous. However, I would take that with a grain of salt, the older R model was no slouch and was a very good performer. In this case it may come down to how much you want to spend.

As a wild card, i'm going to throw another option at you that was highly recommended to me recently and would fit your space perfectly. The "Dayens Ampino". These are hand built in Serbia and have built a great reputation as the epitome of a "giant killer"...which represents incredible value. Google them. I see you can buy a new one on Audiogon right now for $672 which is the 'upgraded version'.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-dayens-audio-ampino-integrated-amplifier-mundorf-eb-alps-blue-velvet-2017-06-16-integrateds-11725-commack-ny

Here's some pro reviews as well...
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/04/dayens-ampino-integrated-amplifier/

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dayens/ampino.html

 

[Kyngfish]

As a wild card, i'm going to throw another option at you that was highly recommended to me recently and would fit your space perfectly. The "Dayens Ampino". These are hand built in Serbia and have built a great reputation as the epitome of a "giant killer"...which represents incredible value. Google them. I see you can buy a new one on Audiogon right now for $672 which is the 'upgraded version'.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-dayens-audio-ampino-integrated-amplifier-mundorf-eb-alps-blue-velvet-2017-06-16-integrateds-11725-commack-ny

Here's some pro reviews as well...
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/04/dayens-ampino-integrated-amplifier/

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dayens/ampino.html

Thanks! I'll forever remember 6moons as the place that went crazy over the T-Amp (which I still have by the way)

 

[marksas]

Thanks! I'll forever remember 6moons as the place that went crazy over the T-Amp (which I still have by the way)

No prob...I use a T-amp in my office setup w/ DIY speakers, works great.

 

[ski2xblack]

The JW driver and the Mark audio drivers also do not need a BSC network. It is taken care of mechanically by the way the cones behave.

Never tried a JW, or a Lowther ($$$$), but at your (TLS') suggestion I did try a MA alpair-7 (I think? This was a couple years ago), which didn't need any bsc or other contouring, but it was also notably less sensitive than the Fostex and TB drivers I also had on hand. Seems the "built in" bsc came in exchange for sensitivity. And my experience involved using either mltl-reflex or aperiodic vents, not back loaded horns as the OP has. He should be much better off in terms of bass/tonal balance/bsc, so thanks for clarifying that. I'm not sure I approve of sending him down the Lowther path, though...he could buy a pair of nice Philharmonitors for less than the cost of a single Lowther driver!

To Kyngfish, yes, even your little T-amp would work with the Fostex speakers, but I would strongly recommend something with tone controls. As has been mentioned up thread, these full-rangers most often exhibit hot response at higher frequencies and can really benefit from rolling the treble off.

 

[Kyngfish]

To Kyngfish, yes, even your little T-amp would work with the Fostex speakers, but I would strongly recommend something with tone controls. As has been mentioned up thread, these full-rangers most often exhibit hot response at higher frequencies and can really benefit from rolling the treble off.

Yeah, I wasn't really expecting to use the T amp in this setup but if it's worth somehow using it, I'm all ears. When I used it a long time ago, it really wasn't powerful enough for the speakers I had.

 

[ski2xblack]

Those Fostex are quite sensitive. Even the T-amp would get them screaming loud.

Haven't you had the chance to listen to them yet? Get too it, man! (And use your corners as TLS suggest; consider their response will tend to collapse into a beam at higher frequencies, so toe them in to avoid splashing side walls with treble, and don't sit directly on axis; be gentle-the wide band drivers are not meant to be flogged with copious power; cue up some of your favorite tunes and get to the music!)

 

[Kyngfish]

Haven't you had the chance to listen to them yet? Get too it, man! (And use your corners as TLS suggest; consider their response will tend to collapse into a beam at higher frequencies, so toe them in to avoid splashing side walls with treble, and don't sit directly on axis; be gentle-the wide band drivers are not meant to be flogged with copious power; cue up some of your favorite tunes and get to the music!)

Haven't. Have to drive two hours to pick them up and won't get to it until next weekend probably.

 

[Verdinut]

Yes - totally understood, but since i built the shelves I can modify them, but since it's a floating setup and the wall is pretty empty (and I like it that way) the thought of filling it up with an old school amplifier with a bunch of knobs and lights kind of bums me out.

Obviously the turntable will also present a problem.

I know I'm being difficult here - but I do appreciate all the inputs from people here. I'm trying to walk a balance between the "look" I want, without sacrificing too much quality. Second question really is, is making the leap from 500 to 900 going to give me a huge leap in performance as well. I don't want to spend 1000 on an amp that a year from now could be replaced. But if 1000 will give me something I will conceivably keep instead of place-holding, then let's do it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd modify the shelf to get one which would accept deeper equipment.

BTW, the Yamaha A-S501 which I recommended in a previous post has a phono input as well. IMO, that makes it with all its other features a very interesting product for the asking price. It has Bass & Treble tone controls but otherwise not too many knobs on it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Never tried a JW, or a Lowther ($$$$), but at your (TLS') suggestion I did try a MA alpair-7 (I think? This was a couple years ago), which didn't need any bsc or other contouring, but it was also notably less sensitive than the Fostex and TB drivers I also had on hand. Seems the "built in" bsc came in exchange for sensitivity. And my experience involved using either mltl-reflex or aperiodic vents, not back loaded horns as the OP has. He should be much better off in terms of bass/tonal balance/bsc, so thanks for clarifying that. I'm not sure I approve of sending him down the Lowther path, though...he could buy a pair of nice Philharmonitors for less than the cost of a single Lowther driver!

To Kyngfish, yes, even your little T-amp would work with the Fostex speakers, but I would strongly recommend something with tone controls. As has been mentioned up thread, these full-rangers most often exhibit hot response at higher frequencies and can really benefit from rolling the treble off.

The JW and Mark drivers are not high sensitivity drivers. They are mid Q. Qts around 0.35. Flux density s average. I did try and horn load a JW once. The speaker had far too much bass. These high sensitivity speakers are low Q and very high flux density. That means they really have to horn loaded to be listenable.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah, I wasn't really expecting to use the T amp in this setup but if it's worth somehow using it, I'm all ears. When I used it a long time ago, it really wasn't powerful enough for the speakers I had.

The T-amp will be powerful enough to drive those speakers.

 

[KEW]

If I were in your shoes, I'd modify the shelf to get one which would accept deeper equipment.

BTW, the Yamaha A-S501 which I recommended in a previous post has a phono input as well. IMO, that makes it with all its other features a very interesting product for the asking price. It has Bass & Treble tone controls but otherwise not too many knobs on it.

Don't forget the variable loudness knob! As far as I'm concerned, that is the biggest reason to buy a Yamaha integrated (although it is competitive without this knob). Still a clean face with two small leds (power and input). 3 if you run pure direct!

Also note that if you do not need a DAC, you can save some bucks buying the A-S500 ($350 refurb at A4L)