Shouldn't I be able to tell the difference?

V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
I have a Yamaha DSP-A3090 that I have used as my home theater receiver for years. I'm upgrading now to something more modern that can handle HDMI and the latest lossless audio formats.

I also have an old Yamaha MX-1000 amp. The 3090 is rated at 80W/channel, and the 1000 at 260W/channel. I set up the 3090 to pre-amp out only the left channel and then ran that through the 1000 and to my RTI-12s. The right channel was driven off the 3090's internal amp.

The 3090 THD is .0015, while the 1000 THD is .003. Not counting sound quality, shouldn't I be able to hear a volume difference between the left and right channels (260W left, 80W right). I know you don't get the full wattage until max volume, but I would think at 1/3 to 1/2 volume I would be able to tell the difference. The sound identical. Am I just not understanding how audio watts works?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I have a Yamaha DSP-A3090 that I have used as my home theater receiver for years. I'm upgrading now to something more modern that can handle HDMI and the latest lossless audio formats.

I also have an old Yamaha MX-1000 amp. The 3090 is rated at 80W/channel, and the 1000 at 260W/channel. I set up the 3090 to pre-amp out only the left channel and then ran that through the 1000 and to my RTI-12s. The right channel was driven off the 3090's internal amp.

The 3090 THD is .0015, while the 1000 THD is .003. Not counting sound quality, shouldn't I be able to hear a volume difference between the left and right channels (260W left, 80W right). I know you don't get the full wattage until max volume, but I would think at 1/3 to 1/2 volume I would be able to tell the difference. The sound identical. Am I just not understanding how audio watts works?
Good question indeed:)
But, reality is not that simple, nor easy.;):D

Firstly, you compared a left channel sound to a right channel sound. That is not a good way to compare.
Second, if the left and right channels were initially at the same volume, the volumes should increase linearly as you increase the input signal and you would not notice anything untill you exceed that 85 watts on both speakers, not likely to happen unless all your bass is to the left and right channels only.
Thirdly, no real reason for them to sound different in the first place. Both are well designed to be transparent and they are.:D
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
OK, I guess I left a little bit out. I turned off all audio processing effects on the 3090. I was listening to a CD which I believe left/right audio volumes are the same.

So, basically, I won't notice a difference until I go above 85 watts and then the right channel would distort, while the left channel would be clean up to 260?

Ok, what about this: The MX-1000 is a 2 channel amp that can drive three sets of speakers. If I use 2 outputs on the 1000 to bi-amp the RTi-12 on the left channel, would that make it sound louder at the same volume setting than the non-biamped RTi-12 on the right channel running off the 3090? Just an exercise in theory here.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Depends on the amplification ratio of the external amp compared to the one in the AVR.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Let's lay all the groundwork here:

First - Regardless of THD rating you won't be able to discern a difference between these two amplifiers without going beyond one or the other's capabilities (IE Clipping). Distortion isn't audible to humans unless it exceeds 1%, both of those components are far under that distortion rating so they are both going to put out exactly what goes in giving you clean, undistorted, and color free amplification.

Second - Just because the DSP-3090 is rated 85 watts per channel doesn't mean each channel has a cap limit of 85 watts. Normally such ratings are closer to an ACD rating (all channels driven) and doesn't reflect what one or two channels may be capable of outputting at any given moment. A integrated home theater amplifier like the DSP-3090 may be capable of outputting more than 200 watts from one channel at any given moment because each bi-polar transistor set is usually rated much higher than the specified wattage per channel rating. On the DSP-3090 I would assume that the specified output of a single output transistor to be higher than 200 watts, they do this to allow one channel to deliver more power when it's needed as well as protect the circuit from frying from too much power. The power supply, transformer and capacitors primarily, are big enough on the DSP-3090 to make it a formidable 2 channel system (which is what I like about multichannel amplifiers and receivers).

You see, because the system is meant to handle 5 or more channels of power the transformer and capacitors are often bigger than a similarly rated stereo receiver, and more often than not have far great headroom than a stereo receiver of similar rating. My guess is that if you where to benchtest the DSP-3090 which has a similar amplifier to the DSP-1000 (a very stout unit) that with 4 ohm loads with 2 channels driven at or under the specified THD that it would output around 200 watts per channel ore more, it may even do this at 8 ohms. I've looked closely at the output stage on the DSP-1000 and the transistors are quite large and indeed capable of handling some heavy duty stuff. The transformer is one of the largest iron core transformers I've seen in such a component and the 2 capacitors are nearly as large as cans of Redbull which if I recal correctly where 15,000uF a piece.:eek: Needless to say it's got enough power to drive most speakers to ear bleading levels without stress unless you are talking about driving speakers with super low sensitivity and extremely reactive loads.

Third - The MX-1000 is a fine amplifier. Be sure that you understand that just because it has outputs for 3 separate banks of stereo speakers that each output has it's own dedicated output. Bi-amping from there would be more like Bi-wiring, which is a complete waste of time and wire.

Fourth - You could effectively bi-amp by using both the DSP-3090 and MX-1000 since you have already confirmed the input sensitivity for both the on board amplifier and MX-1000 are the same, however you might find that if you pushed too hard you may accidentally start losing drivers due to overpowering them. The specifications indicate that you should power the RTi 12 with anything from 50 watts - 500 watts per channel. To power these speakers with a 500 watt per channel amplifier is absolutely unnecessary for almost every application. Even in an active x-over array the low end drivers would be the first to go unless you put a subsonic filter on them and replaced the low end support with a couple of heavy duty subwoofers that would be able to keep up with such a tremendous level of output.

Fifth - I would suggest keeping the MX-1000 is it's output capability is obviously beyond the DSP-3090 and will certainly have twice the headroom with twice the capacitance. Use the MX-1000 in conjunction with whatever new receiver or preamp/processor you happen to get.

Sixth - Let me know what you plan to do with your DSP-3090, I may have a specific use for it should you decide to let it go. I just picked up a pair of Vandersteen 2Ce towers and would like to have good clean power in a single component as well as have the function of an RF AC-3 input so I can utilize my laserdisc player's full potential.

Good luck!:)
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Also the Polk RTi 12s are quite an easy task to drive for most decent receivers and amplifiers as the RTi 12s have a reasonable sensitivity. The RTi 12s do have a slightly higher impedance curve than most making them difficult for a lower current receiver or small amplifier to drive correctly, but they are a very well rounded speaker considering their cost. You wouldn't expect one to spend that much on speakers and buy an Insignia receiver from Best Buy anyway.
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
Also the Polk RTi 12s are quite an easy task to drive for most decent receivers and amplifiers as the RTi 12s have a reasonable sensitivity. The RTi 12s do have a slightly higher impedance curve than most making them difficult for a lower current receiver or small amplifier to drive correctly, but they are a very well rounded speaker considering their cost. You wouldn't expect one to spend that much on speakers and buy an Insignia receiver from Best Buy anyway.
First, let me say thanks to everyone for the great responses so far. I'm a newbie here and these are newbie questions, and I appreciate all the help.

I plan to replace the 3090 with a Yamaha RX-V863. I need something for the lossless audio formats of Blu-ray and hdmi. I was just going to give the 3090 to my grandmother. She won't appreciate all its capabilities by far. I may just sell the MX-1000 along with my CX-1000 preamp the I was planning to sell anyway. If I can't tell the difference with the 3090 rated at 80 watts for my normal listening levels, the 863 at 105 watts should be fine. Though- the 863 does weight a lot less- by half- than the 3090. That makes me wonder if it was built with the same quality and overengineering in mind.
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
By the way- I currently have a self amped 10" Harmon Kardon sub handling the bass- to be replaced by a 12" Polk eventually.

If you like the RTI-12's you can get them for less than $400 each at Amazon right now.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You have gotten good info here, but at the same time, it is excellent that you are running these trials to find out for yourself. If you actually heard a difference it would probably be because of a faulty component in one of the units.
However, to insure your test is more accurate, switch your unit to "mono" for any future trials. This would give you the exact same signal going into both units. Like you, I would have thought you would have needed to use the balance control to compensate for the more powerful amp. Thanks for asking the question!
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
Not sure how to put the 3090 in mono mode- there is a switch on the back for 5 or 7 channel output, and turning all effects off puts it in pure 2 channel mode no matter where that switch is set. The pre-outs are accessible for the front right and left channels individually by removing a crossover pin. I removed it for the left channel only and set all effects off (pure 2 channel stereo) for this test.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
In order to come get mono you would have to use a source that happens to have two sets of stereo outputs and just use both of the left outputs to run into a stereo input on the DSP-3090. You could also use a y-adaptor.

The RX-V863 is a very nice receiver, but it won't rival the DSP-3090 in power. On the other hand, it should be more than enough to handle the Polks. If not, the 863 has preouts.;)
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
I would have thought the 863 would have been able to at least keep up with the 3090 because they are both Yamaha and the 863 is rated higher. FWIW, I paid $1699 for the 3090 in Germany in 1997 when I was in the Army over there. I also have a TX-492 tuner that goes with it, since the 863 already has a tuner built in.

But then again, the 3090 weighs in at over 50 lbs, while the 863 is only 29..... Maybe I should just get the 863 first and make sure it will fill my needs before I get rid of anything else.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Not sure how to put the 3090 in mono mode.
My bad, I assumed it was common feature. I checked my own Marantz and I can select mono under "Multi Room" or as one of the Tuner modes. However, it does not appear to be an option for the mains.
(though I can't see much use for it other than what you are trying to do).
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Maybe I should just get the 863 first and make sure it will fill my needs before I get rid of anything else.
Not a bad idea, however I'll bet it will be plenty to drive those speakers. As I mentioned in another post those speakers aren't very hard to drive and with a 90dB sensitivity rating they would probably get pretty good output with the RX-V863. I have speakers that are less efficient connected to a much lower power source and I get very respectable levels of output in a medium size room. Of course it can't hurt to keep the MX-1000 around until you are sure since it's certainly not losing any value.
 
V

VTX1800N1

Enthusiast
In order to come get mono you would have to use a source that happens to have two sets of stereo outputs and just use both of the left outputs to run into a stereo input on the DSP-3090. You could also use a y-adaptor.

The RX-V863 is a very nice receiver, but it won't rival the DSP-3090 in power. On the other hand, it should be more than enough to handle the Polks. If not, the 863 has preouts.;)
Considering I'll be running a 12" powered sub, I think it will be ok.
 

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