Should I add Height to this setup?

[Linwood]

Stop the thread asap.

 

[Linwood]

Finally got a call back and the low voltage guys probably can't make it until after the first of the year, and the manager hasn't been able to ask the guy who came before his opinion, so I'm on hold for a while.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Finally got a call back and the low voltage guys probably can't make it until after the first of the year, and the manager hasn't been able to ask the guy who came before his opinion, so I'm on hold for a while.

That figures. Not a great time of year for such things lol.

 

[Linwood]

That figures. Not a great time of year for such things lol.

The speakers I think I want are not on sale anyway. Trying to hold off buying until I know the LV guys are coming so I can stay in the return window if they can't get the wire run.

Thinking of KEF Ci200ER pair, if anyone has opinions. All the other (non-sub) are KEF, not sure that matters, but happy with them.

Crutchfield recommends a "Dynabox". A very expensive piece of rubber in a box shape. Not sure about that, was thinking of just pushing up a piece of batt insulation, paper side down, and forming a tent over it. Again, opinions welcomed.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The speakers I think I want are not on sale anyway. Trying to hold off buying until I know the LV guys are coming so I can stay in the return window if they can't get the wire run.

Thinking of KEF Ci200ER pair, if anyone has opinions. All the other (non-sub) are KEF, not sure that matters, but happy with them.

Crutchfield recommends a "Dynabox". A very expensive piece of rubber in a box shape. Not sure about that, was thinking of just pushing up a piece of batt insulation, paper side down, and forming a tent over it. Again, opinions welcomed.

I think the ci200er will be great! It’s a good design and kef makes very good speakers. You should be very happy.
I used RSL c34e in my system and they are fantastic as well. The only thing nit I have is that they have a soft dome tweeter and the rest of my speakers are not. Not that big a deal.
As far as back boxes, I think it’s a good idea if you can. In my ceiling,I just pushed up the vapor barrier(plastic sheeting) with a slight stretch and it worked fine. However I have seen the batting technique you mentioned. Should work well too.
Interesting take on the upgraded streaming. Something I noticed on my pre Atmos 7.3ch system was that Atmos movies(TMNT was an early one for me) sometimes had much better “movement” through my speakers. Just seemed like panning and channel separation were better. Then after adding four Tops, it was complete. Per usual, not all soundtracks are created equal. Some are meh, and some have tricked me into moving out of the way from thinking I was gonna get hit. I demoed an electronic bands album, and there’s a persistent “sound” running throughout the track. It gave me the feeling of water drops landing on my neck. It was crazy. I don’t expect that from many sources, but man it’s cool sometimes.

 

[Linwood]

Speakers: Thanks.

Atmos movies(TMNT was an early one for me) sometimes had much better “movement” through my speakers.

Exactly. Though it is worth noting that the Knives Out movies (more so each time) probably get really good budgets and can afford better mixing. I know in this one the director and cinematographer seemed to be experimenting minute to minute with lighting, scenes inside the church would go from almost dark to over-bright, simulating the sun from behind clouds. It's actually quite a good choice for seeing how your TV is adjusted for HDR.

Though I also wonder how the 5.1 mix is produced, whether Netflix does that for streaming along with compression to its "standard" audience, or if it's a whole different master from the studio. I was a bit surprised that it was the same ... I guess title is the word... in Netflix, as when I upgraded it resumed in place, I didn't have to find a different version with Atmos/Dolby-Vision. If Netflix is doing it themselves, in some automated fashion to down-sample for the standard audience, it may explain why its quality is worse than simply the format change might imply.

 

[Eppie]

See if you can download the owners manual for the speakers and look at the installation instructions. My Paradigms only called for batt insulation on either side of the cavity and some in behind the speakers. They did not call for boxes. Other brands / models may call for boxes of a specific volume. Some will come with enclosures. Try and stick with what the manufacturer recommends. If it's an open back speaker, most just require insulation and use the entire wall/ceiling cavity as the enclosure.

 

[Linwood]

See if you can download the owners manual for the speakers and look at the installation instructions.

Thanks.

I did, it doesn't. All it says is "designed for dry-lined, stud-partitioned walls and ceilings". They list a rough-in box they sell as "optional". So there is no real guidance other than the implication by omission that no box is required. I think what I may do is order the boxes, and see how well I can get a bat stuffed above it, if it looks nicely sealed off from the blown in stuff leave it and return the boxes, if not I'll have them to try to stuff up in there.

 

[TLS Guy]

The speakers I think I want are not on sale anyway. Trying to hold off buying until I know the LV guys are coming so I can stay in the return window if they can't get the wire run.

Thinking of KEF Ci200ER pair, if anyone has opinions. All the other (non-sub) are KEF, not sure that matters, but happy with them.

Crutchfield recommends a "Dynabox". A very expensive piece of rubber in a box shape. Not sure about that, was thinking of just pushing up a piece of batt insulation, paper side down, and forming a tent over it. Again, opinions welcomed.

I have serious problems the way these ceiling speakers are usually installed. All speakers need the optimum box for Thiele Small parameters of the driver.
KEF don't publish the T/S parameters of their ceiling speakers. They do however publish the optimal sealed box volumes, which you can be sure are calculated from the T/S parameters. The optimum box volume for the KEF Ci200ER is 2.12 cu.ft.

This is the pdf. for optimal use of KEF ceiling speakers.

I think all ceiling speakers should be in the optimal box, but few are. In my view that is a problem. I calculated the optimal box for my ceiling speakers and built four of them, one for each speaker. Now the box should be filled with damping material but the material should not be compressed. So I strongly advise that you build, or contract those boxes to be built. I recommend contractor grade MDF 3/4" to construct them from.

 

[Linwood]

The Dynabox devices are 0.76cf not including the volume taken up by the speaker itself (not sure if that should count). To get 2cf I would have to open up the sheet rock between two joists, deal with all the falling insulation, try to build a box from below (possible, though I'm not a great carpenter). and then try to put it all back together.

I'm not quite sold that is worth it. 60+yo rockwool blown in insulation is a mess, and more concern is with a box built I'd need to try to get some replacement insulation up there, more or less through the box that is supposed to keep it from falling out. Is all that really worth it for 1.5cf more?

Or is using too small worse than leaving it semi-open (insulation bat behind it, but not air tight)?

 

[TLS Guy]

The Dynabox devices are 0.76cf not including the volume taken up by the speaker itself (not sure if that should count). To get 2cf I would have to open up the sheet rock between two joists, deal with all the falling insulation, try to build a box from below (possible, though I'm not a great carpenter). and then try to put it all back together.

I'm not quite sold that is worth it. 60+yo rockwool blown in insulation is a mess, and more concern is with a box built I'd need to try to get some replacement insulation up there, more or less through the box that is supposed to keep it from falling out. Is all that really worth it for 1.5cf more?

Or is using too small worse than leaving it semi-open (insulation bat behind it, but not air tight)?

I can't tell you, as they don't publish the T/S parameters. If they did I could model it.

I used these drivers. The optimal box for these is 0.25 cu.ft. They are perfect for ceiling Atmos speakers.

You can see two of the four in this photo with the grills on.

They have been ideal for Atmos speakers.

 

[Linwood]

They are perfect for ceiling Atmos speakers.

They require more prep than I was hoping to do (when I said I'm not a great carpenter, I'm a terrific barn-stall type carpenter, but as things get more finished and pretty I'm worse and worse). I really like the idea of cutting a round hole (on the KEF's) and having them just clamp in with a grill to hide the rough part of the hole cut.

But it does raise an interesting question -- what makes a "perfect" Atmos speaker?

I did a bit of searching and convinced myself the aimable tweeters are at best a gimmick and at worst a bad idea; my Crutchfield guy said to go at least 8" to get the deeper bass quality, but I've read very little discussion if there are distinguishing factors to look for.

 

[Happy Joe]

I’d think the Klipsches would be more dynamic. Maybe you’re not a fan of bright speakers??

I an a fan of balanced flat speaker response. I have tried bright speakers in the past and they are OK if you have a parametric equalizer, or are using a tri-amp setup, to tame them... I gave up on that sort of thing decades (around the 1980 's) ago...
I found that I do not like the horn tweeter sound of smaller klipsch speakers (the folded Klipsch horns are very good, IMO). Horn tweeters are the primary reason that I removed the the klipsch towers from the system after roughly 3 months of trying to adapt to them... Its a personal thing. Some folks actually like the klipsch horn tweeters.. I also have a klipsch center channel speaker in storage to keep the other unacceptable speakers company... I might use the stored speakers in the computer room/den if I decide to get back into gaming (unlikely).
I much prefer the flatter sound of the resurrected NHT's With SEAS dome tweeters...I am torn on deciding to get better speakers than the poke r700s (l'm considering the better offerings from SVS and, perhaps Golden Ear and a few others) If I can find some locally to do a test listen. Finding really good speakers to do a trial listen to is tough.

Enjoy!

 

[Linwood]

Finding really good speakers to do a trial listen to is tough.

And the lack of any nearby audio stores makes it really tough for most of us, we have nothing to go by but internet reviews (or pretend simulations such as Crutchfield offers for some). I realize that those stores often did not have ideal setups for comparison, but it least there was SOME ability to compare and listen. Now it's buy and return as a trial, and for something like floor towers the re-package and return is pretty painful even if not costly.

When I was buying photo gear, at least I knew a ton of photographers can could put my hands on a Sony Alpha 1 or a Nikon Z9 and actually try it.

With home theater gear it's tough. And getting harder to sort out all the sponsored/affiliated stuff, as well as the "that person is an idiot" if they hide it well.

 

[Happy Joe]

I hear you!
After my abortive attempt at Atmos using refelctive speakers;, I'm not sure what to try. I don't like patching holes in the wall board, the texture pattern is difficult to reproduce.
I will probably do the wait and see thing... while shopping for better front speakers... shopping is free.

Enjoy.

 

[Linwood]

shopping is free

No, it's addictive. It's like wandering in an ice cream shop. After you browse a bit and read reviews (that's a taste on their little spoons) and next thing you know there's a 3' long empty sundae dish in front of you and only one spoon and you're out of Tums. And yet you look up when the clerk said "we just got a new flavor, want to try it?".

I came into this whole thing trying to figure out a good wireless solution for surrounds. Now I have 5 new speakers, 2 more coming, a new amp....

And I'm still hungry.

And the government failed us -- not one of those things had a big warning about "This product causes addiction and low bank balances, and should be consumed only by people independently wealthy and with endless free time".

 

[TLS Guy]

No, it's addictive. It's like wandering in an ice cream shop. After you browse a bit and read reviews (that's a taste on their little spoons) and next thing you know there's a 3' long empty sundae dish in front of you and only one spoon and you're out of Tums. And yet you look up when the clerk said "we just got a new flavor, want to try it?".

I came into this whole thing trying to figure out a good wireless solution for surrounds. Now I have 5 new speakers, 2 more coming, a new amp....

And I'm still hungry.

And the government failed us -- not one of those things had a big warning about "This product causes addiction and low bank balances, and should be consumed only by people independently wealthy and with endless free time".

Well, I did caution you against going down this Atmos "rabbit hole". I take it your attic is full of blown insulation as is mine. I installed the Atmos boxes before the insulation was blown. If you are going to open up the ceiling, someone needs to go up there and move the insulation out of the way, or you will have real mess on your hands. I think it a bad idea not to enclose a driver and have it exposed to an attic space. If you mount a speaker and box on the ceiling and NOT in it, it will look like H. Gear that does not look nice has zero pride of ownership.

I bet you have a good C & C shop that would make your back boxes in no time if you design it. Since I was busy and had no workshop while the home was under construction, I had these back boxes made in a C & C shop, which they did literally in minutes. I had them build the four enclosures for our Great Room in wall system. I arrived at 8:00 AM and I left at 11.00 AM with 7 speaker enclosures, made perfectly, for a very reasonable charge.

In your case I do think you need to have someone clear the insulation before cutting any holes. You need to run the wiring, which should be put in conduit.
Once the boxes are mounted you can connect and mount the speakers, and then place a grill over them. Attention to detail is alway important, and after you have spent what you have, you need to do the job properly or scrub it. Only you can decide if two Atmos speakers are worth the trouble.

 

[Linwood]

If you are going to open up the ceiling, someone needs to go up there and move the insulation out of the way, or you will have real mess on your hands.

I'm waiting to hear back from them, but last visit the low voltage guys said they could not get to that area. I'm counting on cutting a hole and pushing a glow stick up and over the duct that is in the way of them reaching it. The joist to rafter distance there is probably 12-15" or so and the duct takes all that up as it feeds 3/4 of the house length. For the same reason if I dump a lot of rockwool out, I'm not sure I can replace it. A 8" hole I figure I can cope with, cutting out a 16" x 2' box area is a lot more to cascade down.

It's just the wrong time of year to get trades in to do anything. Especially a small job. These guys did really good work for me last visit running ethernet, they managed to get 4 of the 5 I wanted run. One they couldn't reach (different place), but we daisy chained off a switch in the other direction. These are guys that all day, every day they do nothing but run low voltage wire, so when they say "can't get there" i tend to believe them. I'm certainly not going up there, it's more like spelunking than working in an attic.