Should I add a DAC to my Denon AVR-3802?

[jfrye]

I'm interested in improving the sound quality of my Denon AVR-3802 based system. Would adding a mid-level DAC do that? Anybody done this? What were your results? Thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm interested in improving the sound quality of my Denon AVR-3802 based system. Would adding a mid-level DAC do that? Anybody done this? What were your results? Thanks.

Waste of money. What are your speakers? If you don't like the sound of your rig, look at the speakers first.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would listen to Dr. Mark.

DAC is a total waste of money.

 

[jfrye]

Good point

Waste of money. What are your speakers? If you don't like the sound of your rig, look at the speakers first.

It's not that I don't like the sound, I just want to improve it and get the most bang for my buck. I'm using Mirage FRx-3's for fronts, Mirage FRx-10 for sub and FRx for center and rears. Any ideas on better fronts/main speakers that would match well the rest of the Mirage system?

 

[GranteedEV]

It's not that I don't like the sound, I just want to improve it and get the most bang for my buck.

"I think my car's fast enough, but I'll definitely improve it if I add racing seats!"

You can always improve your system by adding better speakers. Everything else is just you being too afraid of real change and improvement, so you add things that make yourself think you're making a positive, "risk free" difference. See: DACs, Wires, Amps*, Pre-Amps, Stands.

*Amps can make a difference but only there's specific reasons when and why

 

[jfrye]

You lost me with the car analogy (not that I want an explination)

"I think my car's fast enough, but I'll definitely improve it if I add racing seats!"

You can always improve your system by adding better speakers. Everything else is just you being too afraid of real change and improvement, so you add things that make yourself think you're making a positive, "risk free" difference. See: DACs, Wires, Amps*, Pre-Amps, Stands.

*Amps can make a difference but only there's specific reasons when and why

and the too afraid of real change comment??? Good contribution. It seems to me that a separate DAC and not one bundled up with everything else in an AVR would be a step up and given the age of my Denon there are probably newer/better converters out there. But I don't really know hence the reason for my question. I also wouldn't call getting a DAC risk free. If that was the case I wouldn't be asking at all.

 

[GranteedEV]

a DAC is "risk free" in the sense that it won't change the sound of your speakers. Any improvement would necessarily be positive as it would be a function of placebo effect.

 

[bikemig]

Where would you put the dac in your system? I use one but then I don't have an AV receiver with a dac. It made a difference but not a huge one when I added the HRT streamer to my system. There are some good inexpensive dacs out there but it may not be the best bang for your buck.

 

[jfrye]

Between CD player and AVR

Where would you put the dac in your system? I use one but then I don't have an AV receiver with a dac. It made a difference but not a huge one when I added the HRT streamer to my system. There are some good inexpensive dacs out there but it may not be the best bang for your buck.

Output analog signal into the Denon.

 

[GranteedEV]

Where would you put the dac in your system? I use one but then I don't have an AV receiver with a dac. It made a difference but not a huge one when I added the HRT streamer to my system. There are some good inexpensive dacs out there but it may not be the best bang for your buck.

Yes, an external DAC is probably necessary for a computer based system because of analog circuitry noise within a computer.

 

[bikemig]

Output analog signal into the Denon.

If the analog signal is coming from a computer as a source, then use by all means get a dac. The HRT musicstreamer II is very cool and runs a $150. It uses a usb output. If you do not have a computer nearby that you wish to use, then the SB Touch is a great streamer and sounds good via the analog outputs. It runs around $300 and is a lot of fun plus it really opens the door to internet radio.

 

[sylvershadow]

not a waste of money, but a good investment.

A DAC is not a waste of money at all if you are listening to digital music. if you run mp3 or wma or itunes though your speakers, you are not an audiophile and don't deserve to be in this forum. the only way to truly listen to good music is through a lossless format (FLAC is one of the most popular and best). if you run a 24/96 or even a 16/48 lossless audio signal through your receiver's dac and then through a high quality dac such as a burr brown, you will hear the difference. and while it seems these super high dac's are super expensive, Logitech makes a network player that will stream lossless audio wired or wirelessly to your receiver and uses a burr brown 24/192 dac, which is one of the best in the market. this doesn't cost thousands, but more like $300. I myself have one and i can absolutely hear the difference. although if you play more of cd's most cd players have at least a 24/96 dac in them, although they won't be as high end as a burr brown. so no, a dac is not a waste of money at all.

 

[highfigh]

A DAC is not a waste of money at all if you are listening to digital music. if you run mp3 or wma or itunes though your speakers, you are not an audiophile and don't deserve to be in this forum. the only way to truly listen to good music is through a lossless format (FLAC is one of the most popular and best). if you run a 24/96 or even a 16/48 lossless audio signal through your receiver's dac and then through a high quality dac such as a burr brown, you will hear the difference. and while it seems these super high dac's are super expensive, Logitech makes a network player that will stream lossless audio wired or wirelessly to your receiver and uses a burr brown 24/192 dac, which is one of the best in the market. this doesn't cost thousands, but more like $300. I myself have one and i can absolutely hear the difference. although if you play more of cd's most cd players have at least a 24/96 dac in them, although they won't be as high end as a burr brown. so no, a dac is not a waste of money at all.

Your first post here and you tell someone they're not an audiophile & don't deserve to be in this forum? Really? Really?

If you want to think you're an audiophile, go shout it from the mountain tops. See who gives a rat's azz.

BTW- most good receivers have Burr-Brown and similar DAC chips and they're only distinguishable under the best of circumstances. Once any ambient noise enters the room, most audible improvements are gone.

Your last sentence is wrong if the receiver has digital inputs- the CD player's DAC doesn't even enter the audio stream if the digital out is used. Converting from the analog outputs to digital and then to analog is just adding two more steps in the signal chain and will not improve anything. The data on the CD is digital and if you choose to use the analog outputs, your sound quality is at the mercy of the player's DAC.

 

[Swerd]

When AVRs, like the OP's Denon 3802, get analog signals, the first thing they do is digitize the signal. All the preamp functions, such as tone control, bass mangement, etc. are done digitally. After that, the digital signal is converted to analog and sent on to the amp section.

If a digital signal (such as PCM from a CD) is sent directly to the AVR, it stays digital through the various processing steps, and is then converted to analog as above. If this digital signal is first converted to analog by a DAC on a CD or DVD player, or through an external DAC, the AVR will re-digitize it, process it, and convert it again to analog. (Highfigh did mention this in his post.)

There is one exception to this, Pure Direct mode. Various makes of AVRs use different names for this, and I'm not sure if the Denon 3802 has it or not. They bypass digitizing an incomig analog signal, perform minimal processing, and send the analog signal on to the amp section with minimal processing.

Unless something like a Pure Direct mode is available, using an external DAC adds additional, unnecessary processing steps to the signal path.

Is there a reason why no one has mentioned this to the OP, or am I missing something?

 

[bikemig]

BTW- most good receivers have Burr-Brown and similar DAC chips and they're only distinguishable under the best of circumstances. Once any ambient noise enters the room, most audible improvements are gone.

Your last sentence is wrong if the receiver has digital inputs- the CD player's DAC doesn't even enter the audio stream if the digital out is used. Converting from the analog outputs to digital and then to analog is just adding two more steps in the signal chain and will not improve anything. The data on the CD is digital and if you choose to use the analog outputs, your sound quality is at the mercy of the player's DAC.

I think highfi is right that even with a computer playback system, it makes sense to try out the digital inputs in an AV receiver before thinking about investing in a stand alone dac. Where dacs make the most sense is with computer playback and a 2 channel rig that lacks digital inputs. That said, I love my SB Touch and use it (and its dac) rather than my AV receiver's.