Shooting at Dark Knight in CO. What is WRONG with some people?

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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
A lone gunman dressed in riot gear burst into a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., at a midnight showing of the Batman film "The Dark Knight Rises" and methodically began shooting patrons, killing at least 12 people and injuring at least 50.
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead - Yahoo!

Prayers for the families of the dead and injured.

I just don't think I will ever understand why a person would do something like this.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
I hear you John. I Could not believe it when I woke up this morning. So sad and so senseless. I hope all the injured fully recover and the death toll does not go up.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Yeah, absolutely crazy. I have a few friends that are swat there in Denver, one of them told me what was going down about 20 minutes after the first call went out. Listened to most of it on a scanner app while at work.

Chaos......have felt disgusted the rest of the day.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Prayers for all the victims and all affected.
Mental illness has always been the big pink elephant in the room.
Unfortunately it's not as easy as a tooth ache to fix; and people don't accept treatment as willingly.:(
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Prayers for all the victims and all affected.
Mental illness has always been the big pink elephant in the room.
Unfortunately it's not as easy as a tooth ache to fix; and people don't accept treatment as willingly.:(
Amen to that, brother.

This guy had obviously lost the plot. As hard as it is for the families right now, I would have an easier time forgiving him, than those gangbangers who have shootouts in the middle of crowds, just because they don't give a cr@p about anyone else.:mad:

I have a hard time processing such tragedies. I know that they might not be able to control themselves, but why should some innocent bystander and their families have to suffer because of it?:(
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I hope all the injured fully recover and the death toll does not go up.
Agreed, except that I think the toll should go up by one. This isn't a knee-jerk, heartless comment on my part, IMO. I am partial to an-eye-for-an-eye, but even if I wasn't, this guy represents a clear and present danger. He inflicted a large amount of physical, mental, and emotional pain on a lot of people - and he intended even more. Find out what he knows (e.g. is he acting alone, or is he part of a larger entity) by whatever means necessary, then once he loses value, end it.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
This event is very sad, indeed. It's also a sad fact that there wasn't present an armed person with CCP and carrying who could have stopped the bad guy before he wrecked as much damage as he did.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
This event is very sad, indeed. It's also a sad fact that there wasn't present an armed person with CCP and carrying who could have stopped the bad guy before he wrecked as much damage as he did.
They were perfectly safe, it was reportedly posted as a gun free zone by the theater. :rolleyes:
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I have a hard time processing such tragedies. I know that they might not be able to control themselves, but why should some innocent bystander and their families have to suffer because of it?:(
That's the part that I really just don't get. WHY inflict pain on others who have nothing to do with your issues?

This event is very sad, indeed. It's also a sad fact that there wasn't present an armed person with CCP and carrying who could have stopped the bad guy before he wrecked as much damage as he did.
Someone carrying concealed would probably not made much of a difference. He had a gas mask and threw one or two gas canisters into the room. So it would have been hard to breathe and difficult to see. In a crowded place. the risk would be high to fire back because of the chance of hitting someone else.

He had a 100rd drum for the rifle. He intended to do a lot of damage. Reports are now saying he had been prepping for this for at least 4 months, and bought all of the weapons within the last two months alone.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Someone carrying concealed would probably not made much of a difference. He had a gas mask and threw one or two gas canisters into the room. So it would have been hard to breathe and difficult to see. In a crowded place. the risk would be high to fire back because of the chance of hitting someone else.
Even with body armor hits from 2-3 armed people would likely have driven him off before he could shoot 70 people. Even an ankle shot under the seats would have been better than just laying on the floor waiting for your turn to be shot. With a little luck their might even be an ex marine with a gun there. They train to deal with a lot thicker tear gas than that.

I'll never understand how anyone could harm an innocent human being - especially a child but I also suspect it won't be the last time. Between crazies and terrorists I think it's going to be a fact of 21st century life. If it's not a shooting it'll be a bombing, or poison, or airliners again, or some other sick act of violence.
 
CaliHwyPatrol

CaliHwyPatrol

Audioholic Chief
Someone carrying concealed would probably not made much of a difference. He had a gas mask and threw one or two gas canisters into the room. So it would have been hard to breathe and difficult to see. In a crowded place. the risk would be high to fire back because of the chance of hitting someone else.
While I won't say you're wrong, because I don't know either, there are a few things to consider in this instance.

1. The actual incapacitation value of the gas canisters. Movie theaters are large rooms with high ceilings, there is a pretty good chance that the first mental image (a completely smoked out room) is inaccurate. While there was smoke in the room, witnesses reported still being able to see him and other patrons as the chaos ensued. What that means to me is someone who was in a position to respond would be able to make much more informed decisions that people have been speculating. Unfortunately, we won't know since nobody else was armed.

2. Hitting someone else seen as a bad thing. Of course, it is a bad thing, but there are a lot of what if's that come from that. What if an armed patron returned fire, incapacitating the shooter and hitting someone else in the process, but those are the only two casualties? 2 is a lot better than 12, especially when one of them is the shooter. You can't be certain that an armed patron would have caused more damage than good just as I can't be certain that they wouldn't have. However, it's unfair to assume that they would have when there was nobody there to defend that claim. All I know is what happens when an armed man with a gun goes up against several hundred unarmed people.

3. I'm not saying you are, but people are under the impression that someone responding would return fire instantly, without regard. This is another fallacy. Unless you're a specific target, you have all the time in the world to take in what's going on and how to respond. However, in real time, that would only be 10-15 seconds to get an accurate picture of what is happening and act accordingly. There were also times when he wasn't shooting, like during reloads or when his AR jammed. Another perfect chance to take him down. A lot of common sense and responsibility will come into play here, but that's something that comes with owning and carrying a firearm. To simply assume that anyone responding would be incompetent is an easy target when there wasn't anyone there carrying.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
All good points from CHP.

John (and anyone interested in self-defense in this kind of situation), might gain some insight from this good article. Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado | SOFREP

And just to mention...even though this fruitcake was wearing armor, he can still be had. It HURTS to get shot, even with body armor, and the right calibre certainly knocks him down...even with an on-the-armor shot.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
While I won't say you're wrong, because I don't know either, there are a few things to consider in this instance.

1. The actual incapacitation value of the gas canisters. Movie theaters are large rooms with high ceilings, there is a pretty good chance that the first mental image (a completely smoked out room) is inaccurate. While there was smoke in the room, witnesses reported still being able to see him and other patrons as the chaos ensued. What that means to me is someone who was in a position to respond would be able to make much more informed decisions that people have been speculating. Unfortunately, we won't know since nobody else was armed.
The assumption being, someone skilled enough to properly respond. Off duty cop even would have been able to adequately deal with the situation most likely, so in all likelihood, nobody there appeared prepared for something like that and that is to be expected. Everything would have been different had someone taken him down or returned fire at the very least, and I completely agree that had someone shot back, he would have been killed, injured or scared off and far fewer lives would have been lost. In a panic, most people are almost certainly trying to hide, escape or find a way to defend themselves. I also doubt that he was "invisible" to them in the smoke, as some said they could only see the muzzle flashes while others said they could clearly see him.

2. Hitting someone else seen as a bad thing. Of course, it is a bad thing, but there are a lot of what if's that come from that. What if an armed patron returned fire, incapacitating the shooter and hitting someone else in the process, but those are the only two casualties? 2 is a lot better than 12, especially when one of them is the shooter. You can't be certain that an armed patron would have caused more damage than good just as I can't be certain that they wouldn't have. However, it's unfair to assume that they would have when there was nobody there to defend that claim. All I know is what happens when an armed man with a gun goes up against several hundred unarmed people.
I am not saying I know how I would react either, but given enough opportunity, I'd like to think I would respond accordingly. I would risk hitting someone else to stop an assailant, but lately I've been shooting a few hundred rounds a week also. In the long run, I HIGHLY doubt return fire would have resulted in more casualties, because though he was armored, I guarantee he would not have expected return fire from patrons - he was armored for police.

3. I'm not saying you are, but people are under the impression that someone responding would return fire instantly, without regard. This is another fallacy. Unless you're a specific target, you have all the time in the world to take in what's going on and how to respond. However, in real time, that would only be 10-15 seconds to get an accurate picture of what is happening and act accordingly. There were also times when he wasn't shooting, like during reloads or when his AR jammed. Another perfect chance to take him down. A lot of common sense and responsibility will come into play here, but that's something that comes with owning and carrying a firearm. To simply assume that anyone responding would be incompetent is an easy target when there wasn't anyone there carrying.
There were accounts that said he never once reloaded. He had a 100rd drum on the AR but it jammed, then switched to shotgun and handguns. I am not assuming someone who was carrying would be incompetent, but not all those who are carrying are trained to deal with a situation like this. I certainly am not, though I would expect that at least a moderate percentage of those carrying would be.

All good points from CHP.

John (and anyone interested in self-defense in this kind of situation), might gain some insight from this good article. Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado | SOFREP

And just to mention...even though this fruitcake was wearing armor, he can still be had. It HURTS to get shot, even with body armor, and the right calibre certainly knocks him down...even with an on-the-armor shot.
Armor was protecting vitals, but legs and arms are up for grabs, and a gas mask doesn't stop bullets. This was not a situation for "shoot to disable" either; this is an "end as quickly as possible" situation. I would expect that someone truly carrying for personal defense would also be loaded up with personal defense ammo as well, and that's definitely going to hurt even on the armor for sure, if not penetrate it.

Nice, I read that linked article and one thing he mentions, I've always done out of habit as well. While eating, I sit somewhere against the wall where I can see everything and know my ways out. I also normally have my high output LED flashlight which has a "blind" strobe mode, though had not entirely considered it "tactical". Another point that he didn't only sort of touched on - what you hide behind matters. A table or car door protects in the movies only - they won't stop most bullets in real life.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I'll start off by saying that I am not against firearms ownership and the right to defend oneself - using deadly force, if necessary. But, a common statement in this thread seems to be "if only there was another armed person in that theatre, far fewer people might've been shot". Well, that's like saying: "if only there was no hunger", "if only there was no pollution", "if only there were no corrupt politicians". In other words - pie in the sky. I'm not trying to ridicule and I apologize if anyone takes offence. I just want to put a different perspective out there.

Just for arguments sake, consider armed civilians in every single crowd, in every single venue, 24/7/365. That would be millions, upon millions of gatherings. How many accidental or mistaken shootings would occur every year in the USA? I'm pretty certain that it would dwarf - by a wide margin - incidents such as this. It's just the laws of probability.

Of the millions of sane, law-abiding, armed citizens that would be required in order to have at least one in attendance at all public gatherings, how many would have the training and fortitude to act in an effective manner?

The likelihood of innocent bystanders being shot by somebody trying to take down the lunatic is pretty high as well. I would think that the probability of a lawsuit in such a case is about 101%. Of course, a possible future lawsuit isn't something one can really worry about in the moment. I'm just sayin'...

How about this option? What if we invested as much into treating mental illness as we do into protecting ourselves from such individuals? A lot (not all, of course) of these incidents could be stopped before they happen. I guess the problem is, how do you quantify the incidents that you prevent? It ends up becoming a catch-22: If such problems aren't occurring, why should we invest in preventing them?
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
How about this option? What if we invested as much into treating mental illness as we do into protecting ourselves from such individuals?
Agreed.
I'd like to substitute your 'pie in the sky' reasoning with my own.:D:)
What if we invested as much into treating mental illness, as when we give billions to other countries as bribes, while calling it diplomacy.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
How about this option? What if we invested as much into treating mental illness as we do into protecting ourselves from such individuals? A lot (not all, of course) of these incidents could be stopped before they happen. I guess the problem is, how do you quantify the incidents that you prevent? It ends up becoming a catch-22: If such problems aren't occurring, why should we invest in preventing them?
If the guy is crazy, he isn't exactly likely to go to go down to the doctor's office and say "Hey, I'm crazy, please treat me." It is fine to say "treat them" but if you can't identify them, you can't treat them. That's how they slip through the cracks right now.

Nobody noticed this guy bought 6000 rounds in a short amount of time? Isn't that a pretty BIG red flag?
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I can only speculate but if I was placed in a situation like that I don't think I would have been able to effectively engaged the suspect with my .45 before the damage was done. Dark, loud, smoke, caught by surprised, filled to capacity theater, and once he started firing you would have movement(pushing, shoving) from every which direction.

It's one of those worst case scenarios that I don't think even someone with CQC training, armed with a side arm would have been effective in stopping him unless you were in the seats near him and could get right up on him for a head-shot.

I've been in the "sh*t" before and it takes some deep down intestinal fortitude to charge someone as he's unleashing some serious firepower.

If there was a CCW owner present I believe the death toll would probably been around the same, just the likelihood of the suspect having been killed would have been higher.

Just my .02
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
If the guy is crazy, he isn't exactly likely to go to go down to the doctor's office and say "Hey, I'm crazy, please treat me." It is fine to say "treat them" but if you can't identify them, you can't treat them. That's how they slip through the cracks right now.

Nobody noticed this guy bought 6000 rounds in a short amount of time? Isn't that a pretty BIG red flag?
I understand what you mean, but I have a hard time believing that there were no warning signs whatsoever before this happened. A significant proportion of the inmate population have mental problems. I realize that it isn't as simple as saying "treat them". But, the lack of treatment has big impact on our crime statistics.
 
CaliHwyPatrol

CaliHwyPatrol

Audioholic Chief
The assumption being, someone skilled enough to properly respond. Off duty cop even would have been able to adequately deal with the situation most likely, so in all likelihood, nobody there appeared prepared for something like that and that is to be expected. Everything would have been different had someone taken him down or returned fire at the very least, and I completely agree that had someone shot back, he would have been killed, injured or scared off and far fewer lives would have been lost. In a panic, most people are almost certainly trying to hide, escape or find a way to defend themselves. I also doubt that he was "invisible" to them in the smoke, as some said they could only see the muzzle flashes while others said they could clearly see him.

Exactly. The problem I've been running into when talking with people about this is them assuming that anyone responding would have made the situation worse, when in all reality there is no way to know because it didn't happen.

I am not saying I know how I would react either, but given enough opportunity, I'd like to think I would respond accordingly. I would risk hitting someone else to stop an assailant, but lately I've been shooting a few hundred rounds a week also. In the long run, I HIGHLY doubt return fire would have resulted in more casualties, because though he was armored, I guarantee he would not have expected return fire from patrons - he was armored for police.

I may not be completely up to date on what he was wearing, but I was under the impression that he was wearing a tactical vest, which is actually not bullet proof. If this is true, any decent body mass hit would have been effective. If he was wearing bullet proof armor, it would still hurt and be disorienting. At the very least he would have known people were fighting back.



There were accounts that said he never once reloaded. He had a 100rd drum on the AR but it jammed, then switched to shotgun and handguns. I am not assuming someone who was carrying would be incompetent, but not all those who are carrying are trained to deal with a situation like this. I certainly am not, though I would expect that at least a moderate percentage of those carrying would be.

The time from when his AR jammed and when he switched weapons is more than enough to rush him, and if you're armed, take a few well timed shots. Rushing him would take some serious cajones, I wouldn't fault anyone for not doing so. Heck, just thinking about it scares the crap out of me. That could be a different story though if an armed patron took advantage and sent some lead his way.



Armor was protecting vitals, but legs and arms are up for grabs, and a gas mask doesn't stop bullets. This was not a situation for "shoot to disable" either; this is an "end as quickly as possible" situation. I would expect that someone truly carrying for personal defense would also be loaded up with personal defense ammo as well, and that's definitely going to hurt even on the armor for sure, if not penetrate it.

Nice, I read that linked article and one thing he mentions, I've always done out of habit as well. While eating, I sit somewhere against the wall where I can see everything and know my ways out. I also normally have my high output LED flashlight which has a "blind" strobe mode, though had not entirely considered it "tactical". Another point that he didn't only sort of touched on - what you hide behind matters. A table or car door protects in the movies only - they won't stop most bullets in real life.
Responses in bold!

I like that article, partly because I have been instinctively doing those things most of my life. I do like the flashlight bit though. It's something so simple that can make a world of difference.
 
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