Separates vs. pioneer ICE receiver for RF7 II

[zumbo]

So in a controlled environment where my Adcom is operated within it's limit, and the Denon is forced to mirror that limit, the sound should be the same.

But, hand the remotes to the person in the blindfold. Let them control the volume. The Adcom will be pushed beyond it's limit. The Denon will remain clean at that limit, with reserve power to continue on.

Even if I only use my Adcom close to it's limit, after an hour or so, it will still need a break.

This is simple first-hand experience with identical speakers under real-world situations.

If all cars on the highway were controlled to operate at 70MPH, they would all be equal. This is an example of a controlled situation that should clearly explain my POV.

 

[Pyrrho]

DBT is another form of selling a product. DBT gets beaten to death here, just as ID brands do.

It's very easy to spot those who support DBT.

1) People selling the product.

2) People who own the product.

Resale value is a much better blind test. Knowing I can get all of my money back at any given time is of way more importance to me.

Pride of ownership is another.

Resale value tells you nothing about actual performance. I sold my McIntosh MAC 1700 for a normal market value, which, in my opinion, is vastly more than it is worth. And that is one reason why I sold it. It absolutely did not sound any better than gear I have owned that, on the open market, is about one tenth its dollar value. And being from the same era, not much different in quality of construction.

 

[zumbo]

I sold my McIntosh MAC 1700 for a normal market value, which, in my opinion, is vastly more than it is worth.

As mentioned, you got your money back.

Pride of ownership.

People such as myself who don't have the money to buy such gear have two options.

1)Buy premium used.

2)Buy new Chinese made Johnny-come-lately.

I know for a fact which one will give me my money back.

I know for a fact which one was built with pride.

Knowing that, I know which one sounds better to me.

 

[Pyrrho]

As mentioned, you got your money back.

Pride of ownership.

People such as myself who don't have the money to buy such gear have two options.

1)Buy premium used.

2)Buy new Chinese made Johnny-come-lately.

I know for a fact which one will give me my money back.

I know for a fact which one was built with pride.

Knowing that, I know which one sounds better to me.

In other words, you are judging "sound" by things other than the way it actually sounds.

In the case of the MAC, I bought it used and made a profit on selling it after hanging onto it for about 15 years. If I had purchased it new, I would have lost money on the sale. And that is almost always the case, if one buys gear new and then sells it later, one tends to lose money. If one buys used gear, if one does not overpay, one can tend to sell it for what one paid for it, and if one gets a particularly good deal, one can make a profit. This has nothing to do with whether it is an expensive item or a cheaper one.

 

[zumbo]

In other words, you are judging "sound" by things other than the way it actually sounds.

In the case of the MAC, I bought it used and made a profit on selling it after hanging onto it for about 15 years. If I had purchased it new, I would have lost money on the sale. And that is almost always the case, if one buys gear new and then sells it later, one tends to lose money. If one buys used gear, if one does not overpay, one can tend to sell it for what one paid for it, and if one gets a particularly good deal, one can make a profit. This has nothing to do with whether it is an expensive item or a cheaper one.

I clearly stated used throughout.

I clearly stated you can get 100%+ of your money back, as you did.

As for sound, I clearly stated more power. And, I gave specific situations.

As far as I can tell by reading the thread, you and I are on the same page. Unless you support buying Chinese made ID brands, which I do not.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Care to expound? 1 watt is 1 watt is 1 watt, provided distortion levels are beyond the threshold of human hearing. I listened to the RF7 with a Sonic Impact t-amp MANY times. Never had an issue- could not be distinguished from Carver amplifier in a blind test.

I know this topic has gotten beat to death on these forums, but it still fascinates me. I probably would not hook up a nice speaker at all to the PYLE amp- Just based on product reputation, but assuming one functions correctly, it should be indistinguishable from other amplifiers.

That said, I'm a fan of having products and paying for products that are built well, built to last, and find value in those features.

Sure! Let me try to explain myself better. I will 1st start off by agreeing with you that 2 things that are identical are, indeed, identical. So, yes, science says that 1 watt in box A is the same as 1 watt in box B.

What I should have said is - All watts are not delivered/executed equally. I will give some examples.

The BG Radia PD-6Ci http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/PD-6Ci-literature.pdf is one of the absolute best, most unique sounding -in-ceiling/wall speaker I have ever heard. They are excellent, with a distinct way of delivering music! They sound incredible, with real bass and a presence that radiates in your ears.... if powered properly. When not.... they lack dynamics and sound dead - gross, actually.

I have a pair in my master bedroom ceiling run into a small closet. I switch amplifiers in and out to play around with these all the time.

This: http://sonos.com/products/zoneplayers/zp120/default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033 sounds excellent at all volume levels. 55watt a channel digital amp.

This: http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8255&class=Receiver&p=i is good down low, but gets muddy when I turn it up louder. 50 watt per channel.

This: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-2046 15 watt a channel amp is disgusting! Boring, flat, dead, not separation of music. NOTE: The 40 W/Ch does much better. It's listenable, but the "WOW" is lacking from the BGs.

4 generations earlier of this: http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR509&class=Receiver&p=i sounds excellent and really no different than the Sonos amp at similar volume levels.

But this: Provided the most out of the speakers at every volume level. http://signalpathint.com/index.php/decco/the-decco.html 50 watt per channel with the Sonos ZP90 (same thing as the ZP120 but w/out the amp section).

I've listened to these different pieces of gear I don't know how many times on these speakers. Many many many. I've used different sources as well. An iPod, a Zune, a cable box, a CD player, a Rhapsody. I've critically challenged myself to NOT hear any sort of difference. But there is.

Here's something I found funny.....
I have those BGs on an A/B switch. This one right here: http://www.parts-express.com/1/1/8872-dayton-audio-iws-ab-wall-a-b-speaker-switch.html . This is so that I can switch the music from my master bedroom into the master bath and allow people to sleep. Side A is the BG PD-6Ci, Side B is a Jamo dual voice coil indoor/outdoor speaker http://www.jamo.com/eu-en/products/i-o-6-52dvca2-description/ . Guess what!!!!!????? No difference in sound quality between anything I play on it.

I have done this amp switching on a great many of different types of speakers. I have these in our showroom: http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=CI-7.3-QM and there's a significant change in sound between the amps with the same results like with the BG. These Phase Techs are spectacular sounding speakers, but gross with the Pyle amp. I've also played around with these and a Nuvo Simplese system like what I linked you earlier. Does not sound like it's supposed to. but, on simpler speakers.... all about the same accept for when they get really loud things can get gross with the Pyle amp.

Here are some more tests....

Right now, in front of my at my PC I have 2 pair of speakers not 2 feat away.
- Jamo C 601 and Sunfire CRM-2
http://www.jamo.com/eu-en/products/c-601-description/
http://sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=24

That's a $438 pair of speakers and a $1600 pair. Both bookshelves. With the little Pyle amp, they both sound great (I like the way cheaper little Jamos better for this purpose, BTW). Very good! This is with a mini-jack to rca cable run from my PC into the Pyle. But that's at 2 feet away from my head and at very low volumes. I took them both into my 12-19 sitting room and tried them out. The Sunfire got pretty gross (blaring) as I had to turn the volume up, the Jamos did fine up until I got to what I would consider a movie volume, then it was really harsh.

I then put them on the Decco and even at low volumes I was getting real detail out of the speakers. As the volume increased I didn't have that urge to wince, like with the little Dayton amp.

Once, about 4 years ago, I had a large set of BG ribbons in for demo http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/FS-520 Radia Product sheet .pdf. I used a 125 watt Sony receiver to try and power them. Uh.... no. They struggled mightily. I mean, no life in these things. I switched over to a Parasound 2125 (same rated watts, BTW) and the speakers came to life. Granted, I still didn't care for them all that much, but they at least put out some sound.

I have a ton of examples where switching out a receiver or amp to upgrade or down made a difference in the sound quality of a system. A lot of receivers are the same in their given price points, as are a lot of amps (it all depends on the "manufacturer") but putting more real power into a speaker usually only results in better sound.

That's why when you said that you can put 15 watts in the RF7II and it will be fine I thought to speak up. Every amp/receiver/etc. does not sound the same with every speaker. Everything has it's optimal balance for what it minimally needs to sound it's best in a given environment. An OK pair of speakers will not sound great with a great amp, but a great pair of speakers can sound bad with an OK amp.

I hope that I have clarified myself better. If not, I'll be happy to provide more real life example where I've encountered real world differences in performance between products.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Care to expound? 1 watt is 1 watt is 1 watt, provided distortion levels are beyond the threshold of human hearing. I listened to the RF7 with a Sonic Impact t-amp MANY times. Never had an issue- could not be distinguished from Carver amplifier in a blind test.

I know this topic has gotten beat to death on these forums, but it still fascinates me. I probably would not hook up a nice speaker at all to the PYLE amp- Just based on product reputation, but assuming one functions correctly, it should be indistinguishable from other amplifiers.

That said, I'm a fan of having products and paying for products that are built well, built to last, and find value in those features.

Also, as a follow up to my post above....

We once designed a really neat, mid level theater for a home show using BG in-walls. The PD-6LCRi here: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/PD-6LCRi-literature.pdf We used an $600 Pioneer Elite to power the theater. It was outstanding. So much so that people would come around the corner in the basment and exclaim "WOW!" and ask to take pictures. I was very proud when people asked me how much something like that cost and when told they made a face like... "Is that it?". I worked hard to design a really special, budget friendly room. It blew away the other theaters in the other houses. Ours was the only one pictured in the newspaper and the only one mentioned on the radio adds and on TV. It was sweet and under $8k. So much so that the builder has built the same layout in two other homes. We did both theaters.... used the same speakers, wire, room was exactly the same size and shape.

One home owner let us use the $600 Elite and it turned out fabulous. Just like the show. The other decided he would just "go get a receiver" as his budget started shrinking while building the house. He bought an entry level Sony receiver (still was rated the same as the Elite). He said that it seemed similar to the one I was going to sell him so he thought it would be fine. NO. It sucked. I plugged it all in, stepped back and looked at my design and was heart broken. he bought, what I feel, are great speakers for his room size and then destroyed it by not giving the speaker what it needed to sound amazing. Not just good... amazing (BG even recommends that $500 6LCRi over their $800 SA-200... and I agree). Sure, my client liked it. For him it was great. Remember my earlier post where I pointed out that most people have no idea what something is supposed to sound like? Well, I do and I designed that particular system to sound a hell of a lot better than that.

He then brought out one of the 1st Sony LCD projectors he had in his old house and had me install it. That's when I felt sick. That thing was 6 years old and made a BluRay copy of KingKong look like a 16bit Genesis game. The way LCD was when it 1st came about... well, it had deteriorated quite a bit. Just gross. I just hooked it up, showed him how to work it, got my last bill paid and left. Shaking my head and really bummed. Proper amplfiers matter to great speakers and I've never felt that a speaker sounded worse for putting better amplification on it. But I certainly can find a bunch of different examples of where they sounded bad from a cheap one.

 

[adwilk]

Any time you are able to reach the limit of the speaker while the amp is well below it's limit. My 2200(300w@4ohm) doesn't even get hot while driving the 4ohm 87db load to ear bleeding levels.

OTOH, my Adcom 7605(175w@4ohm) gets very hot. It also runs-out-of-gas. I can send it into protection mode, and things get a little nasty before. Very compressed sounding.

The 2200 just gets louder. Detail remains the same.

I understand that- I was simply stating that (given your example) if neither Denon nor the Adcom were pushed to their limits, then having a higher power amplifier is moot. Basically- having headroom is great, extra headroom means nothing when limitations arent exceeded....

More power in your case was needed, you exceeded the limits of the Adcom. Your blanket statement of more power is better is questionable. I get your point, but its not that absolute.


Definitely do agree with your statements on resale and pride of ownership... Same reason I've purchased many items- audio related or not..

 

[adwilk]

Sure! Let me try to explain myself better............... If not, I'll be happy to provide more real life example where I've encountered real world differences in performance between products.

The problem is all your "tests" are based on your perceptions- some serious subjectivity...

Examples of your impressions are fine, but it don't make it so...

 

[InTheIndustry]

The problem is all your "tests" are based on your perceptions- some serious subjectivity...

Examples of your impressions are fine, but it don't make it so...

LOL...

There is no problem with honest subjectivity. In fact, I prefer it in reviews far more than measurements. Look at your example when you stated that you used a T-amp with the RF7. You used a real world example. The only thing I would caution with real world examples is that there are always many different situations than one’s own to consider when recommending products. Application & variables are words I use often. People ask all the time for speaker/electronics advice... "Which is best?" To which I answer... "For what?" . Because practical application is all that truly matters.

There is no point to science if it has no real world implications. We can theory craft about what "should" sound better/worse until we're blue in the face, but real world usage trumps anything that a graph can show me, which is why I use real world experiences in my posts where I can. Graphs can be manipulated and lied from behind, my ears cannot.

Psycho acoustics affects those "unbiased" (I use that term w/ sarcasm) by science just as much as the guy who listens to the price of gear and judges it better or worse. The sad part is that "listening" to measurements is often times believing in lies, as I stated with Klipsch sensitivity ratings. There are as many lies out there in audio specs as there are truths and possibly more so. Why? Because, there's more money in it as people tend to listen to specs and graphs and not the actual product.

That is NOT to say measurements are a waste. They are valuable to a point! But, I find them more valuable when taken into the context of a projects design goals in real-world application.

"Knowing" what sounds best before actually hearing it is the biggest sin in audio, IMO. That's why I always try and experiment with different things. I have absolutely, positively ZERO bias accept to my clients. I want to help them spend their money, not waste it. So, if we can get an amp for $50 to sound as good as one for $200 then I'm all for it! I will make my money regardless... or I won't do someone's project. It's a simple business model that our client's love.

As to your last statement...

At the end of the day, my biggest asset as to the validity in what I write/recommend is that I "DO" for a living while most other read and theorize. That certainly doesn't mean that I'm always correct, either! I'm more than excited and eager to learn new things or ways to implement, but I think it shows that I at least have substantial real world reference and experience to back up what I say. I feel that my experience can be described as more than an "impression". One gets an impression from a 5 minute demo. Professional Expertise comes from living with these products literally 24/7 for the past 11+ years.... That and this $2,500 THX certificate from Lucasfilm (that's a joke.... it cost way more than that when I factor in travel time/costs ).

At the end of the day, this is a really fun hobby where there are many different ways to accomplish one's goals!

 

[zumbo]

I understand that- I was simply stating that (given your example) if neither Denon nor the Adcom were pushed to their limits, then having a higher power amplifier is moot.

But, it's not moot. I will take used highly regarded high power over new lower power Johnny-come-lately any day. And, it will sound better.

More power in your case was needed, you exceeded the limits of the Adcom.

This is where you have a little confusion. I am speaking of two separate systems using the same brand/model speakers. The system with the Denon outperforms the system with the Adcom.

Your blanket statement of more power is better is questionable. I get your point, but its not that absolute.

More quality power to be specific.

 

[DenPureSound]

Ah ok thanks a lot guys, i think i'm going to go with just an elite receiver then. It's always fun to gain knowledge while saving money

Depends how big your room is, and what SQ level you want there and what your sources are.

Putting all that aside, I would go with the XPA-2 or TWO MonoBlocks - as the AVR's just do not have it in Power, believe me I have been there, let alone the AVR's won't give you the Big Front SOUNDSTAGE feeling either, but I would spend less on the AVR, and go with One BIG Amp or Two Separate MonoBlocks!!

Keep in mind that the Pioneer Elite at best is only 140W per Ch. with TWO Driven, that is why they sale a separate amp also. If you want the PUNCH, get some POWER there....even w/ Klipsch's of which I have also here.

But, save the $ now, and you will spend it later for some good POWER Amp(s)... JIMOpinion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here are your problems with purchasing solely on spec….

1. The spec driven consumer who is doing the purchasing believes the numbers 1st, and not their ears.

In other words, these consumers will believe that a speaker with the flattest frequency response will sound the best and is the most accurate even before they actually listen to the speakers; they crown the winner even before they actually listen to the speakers?

I think as long as their ears truly agree, then there is no problem with that.

The fact is, not all speakers with "flat" frequency responses sound good to everyone.

But anyway, that Pioneer AVR is great enough for those Klipsch speakers.

 

[PENG]

LOL...

There is no problem with honest subjectivity. In fact, I prefer it in reviews far more than measurements.

The first person who took a flight in the 747 did rely on a lot of theory, measurements, and some simulation. If one has to take a flight first to feel it out before taking a real flight (circular logic) then we will still be walking, let alone going to space. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying but I am just making a point that while subjectivity based on one's experience is important, we should not discount theories and measurements. Afterall, as I repeated my point in the past, engineers based their design mostly on known/proven theory and rely on lab measurements for verification/feedback. Once the finished product hit the market, then people start forming subjective opinion on their performance. Something does not sound totally logical to me.

 

[PENG]

The fact is, not all speakers with "flat" frequency responses sound good to everyone.

I don't know what it takes for people to understand this simple logic. The fact is, speakers with flat frequency produces flat frequency response such that when you put it in a room the person may not perceive flat response but if he/she EQ it he/she would know the base line. So that, we may say is a fact.

Now, not everyone prefers the sound of flat response, and that is also fact but then what do you want the manufacturers to do. How do they know what people prefer? How many speakers we have to audition in our own room before we know we found the one we like to hear.

That's why I always rely on specs, but honest specs, and measurements that verify the specs. I will then take the speakers home and EQ them to my liking if required, only if required. So fare I don't have to EQ them, flat response speakers seem to work well for me.

To me, specs and measurements rule and I know to others, they choose with their ears but I wish them luck and that they have lots of time to experiment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Specs mean quite a lot to me, not just with speakers, but with receivers, pre-pros, and amps.

What each of us expects is different.

I expect my front main speakers to be close to 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB @ 90dB reference from 1m distance in an anechoic chamber.

But different people measure differently, and most people (other than the manufacturer) do NOT measure in an anechoic chamber.

In my experience only speakers with similar specs sound great to me. But then again, when I audition, I only listen to 2.0 in Direct Mode.

People don't set up a 2.1 system for me to audition.

Perhaps I should ask next time.

 

[zumbo]

Some fine material within for the OP to chew on. OP?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some fine material within for the OP to chew on. OP?

I think we got him at "the new Pioneer stuff is excellent!"

 

[karlmalone1]

Yeah i'm here, just been researching for about 10 hours straight various receivers, separates vs. a/v, ect....phew, the amount of information on the internet is overwhelming....i'm still not sold on one way vs. the other. I see that the Pioneer has class D ice amps vs. A/B if i went the separate route with emotiva....any difference here?

 

[InTheIndustry]

Yeah i'm here, just been researching for about 10 hours straight various receivers, separates vs. a/v, ect....phew, the amount of information on the internet is overwhelming....i'm still not sold on one way vs. the other. I see that the Pioneer has class D ice amps vs. A/B if i went the separate route with emotiva....any difference here?

In general the ICE amps are going to run cooler and be more energy efficient. The North American Sales Manager for Totem raved about them when he found out I was a dealer. Said he had heard the SC-37 on the new Tribe V and thought it was phenomenal. Most $2k+ main stream receivers are going to be great products capable of powering most speakers out there.

You could do seperates, yes. However, I would NOT do the Emotiva Preamp. Instead, get the Emotiva amp or a Parasound New Classic 5250 (if budget will allow you to stretch) and use a Pioneer VSX-32 (MSRP $800) for the preamp and rear speakers. I don't know if with those speakers you are going to get some sort of sonic benefit of going to an amp that big, but it's an option. In fact, if you did the Emotiva & VSX-32 it could turn out to be a bit cheaper maybe?

I had a client who wanted to pick his own gear and have us install it. He liked doing the reasearch and having a hand in things. We got him a BIG Atlantic Technology 8200e system, a Denon 4311Ci, and he got the Emotiva amp. I hooked it all up one way, then changed the speaker wires around to try the other. No difference accept that the volume was louder at different points on the knob. Either way, the system sounded great and got loud enough for the room. The bottom line was that the 8200e mains were set up to THX standard 80hz crossover, so they weren't running full range or under any durress.

All of this has to do with the speaker, the room, the setup, and your prefered volume level.