Separates vs. pioneer ICE receiver for RF7 II

K

karlmalone1

Enthusiast
Hey everyone i just got a KILLER deal on some klipsch rf7 II towers, and i can't wait to get them in. As far as powering them, i'm stuck. On one hand I could get a lower end receiever along with a 2 channel amp, such as the emotiva xpa2, and on the other i can just get one receiver, such as the pioneer elite sc-35, which has the ICE amp. The separates would cost a little more, but i'm willing to go that route if it's going to be substantially better than the sc-35. Would the sc-35 do the speakers justice? Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
Hey everyone i just got a KILLER deal on some klipsch rf7 II towers, and i can't wait to get them in. As far as powering them, i'm stuck. On one hand I could get a lower end receiever along with a 2 channel amp, such as the emotiva xpa2, and on the other i can just get one receiver, such as the pioneer elite sc-35, which has the ICE amp. The separates would cost a little more, but i'm willing to go that route if it's going to be substantially better than the sc-35. Would the sc-35 do the speakers justice? Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks
Well, Mail Man, I can tell you from experience that on those speakers I would save yourself the money and get the Pioneer Elite. I'm a dealer of Pioneer Elite, Klipsch, and a lot of other things both up and down on the price chain. You'll be over spending on seperates for those particular speakers. Save the monrey!

On a side note, the new Pioneer stuff is excellent!
 
K

karlmalone1

Enthusiast
Thanks for reply! Any particular information as to why you'd recommend that for these speakers? It just seems with the elite receiver i'd be getting 140w per channel and with the separates it would really give the speakers the power they want.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for reply! Any particular information as to why you'd recommend that for these speakers? It just seems with the elite receiver i'd be getting 140w per channel and with the separates it would really give the speakers the power they want.

Those speaker aren't gonna want much, though. They are crazy efficient and you'll likely never never exceed even a handful of watts.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Well, Mail Man, I can tell you from experience that on those speakers I would save yourself the money and get the Pioneer Elite. I'm a dealer of Pioneer Elite, Klipsch, and a lot of other things both up and down on the price chain. You'll be over spending on seperates for those particular speakers. Save the monrey!

On a side note, the new Pioneer stuff is excellent!
Curious if thats a back handed comment on the Klipsch????
 
K

karlmalone1

Enthusiast
Those speaker aren't gonna want much, though. They are crazy efficient and you'll likely never never exceed even a handful of watts.
Won't the speakers sound better at all volumes though with a very powerful amp?
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Won't the speakers sound better at all volumes though with a very powerful amp?
The amplifier is only going to supply the power that the speakers ask for. If the speakers only need (for the sake of discussion) 8 watts at any given time... all amplifiers capable of producing 8 watts in their specified operating range are equal.

You will never come anywhere near needing the power that either options you are looking at will provide. Headroom will never be an issue with those speakers. You could drive them easily with a 15 watt amplifier without issue.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Curious if thats a back handed comment on the Klipsch????

No, it is not a backhanded compliment. Those Klipsch speakers are rated to put out 101 dB @ 1 meter @ 2.83 volts (1 watt, if they are 8 ohms). That is very loud, and if you play them that loud for long, you will damage your hearing. Of course, you will probably sit more than a meter away from them, but still, they will produce a lot of sound with very little power. It is common for speakers to require 10 times as much power (or more) to produce that amount of sound.


Won't the speakers sound better at all volumes though with a very powerful amp?

No. If two amplifiers are identical, except that one is capable of putting out more power than the other, they will sound exactly the same as long as they are not asked to put out any more power than the lower powered amplifier. Extra power only matters if it is actually used.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
No, it is not a backhanded compliment. Those Klipsch speakers are rated to put out 101 dB @ 1 meter @ 2.83 volts (1 watt, if they are 8 ohms). That is very loud, and if you play them that loud for long, you will damage your hearing. Of course, you will probably sit more than a meter away from them, but still, they will produce a lot of sound with very little power. It is common for speakers to require 10 times as much power (or more) to produce that amount of sound.
I fully understand that- based on my first post... I was just curious if that was being said in a way to say don't waste your money on electronics for "inferior" speakers.. .Just curious if that was the point at all...

Perhaps he can answer that?
 
K

karlmalone1

Enthusiast
Ah ok thanks a lot guys, i think i'm going to go with just an elite receiver then. It's always fun to gain knowledge while saving money :p
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I fully understand that- based on my first post... I was just curious if that was being said in a way to say don't waste your money on electronics for "inferior" speakers.. .Just curious if that was the point at all...

Perhaps he can answer that?
He did not say they were inferior speakers. He said that it would be a waste of money buying expensive power amps to drive them. Given their sensitivity, unless one is trying to fill an auditorium with sound (or a room the size of an auditorium), or one is trying to go deaf very quickly, there is no need for much power for them, even if they will handle 250 watts. So it would be a waste of money buying a separate power amp to drive them, when one is going to be buying a receiver anyway. Probably, there is no surround receiver made by any reputable company that cannot drive those to levels that would be dangerous for one's hearing.

I once heard some Klipschorns driven by a cheap boombox, because thieves broke into the owner's house and stole his electronics, but evidently the speakers were too big to conveniently take. So, the owner was temporarily using a cheap boombox to drive them, until he bought new components. It worked surprisingly well (well, not so surprising when one considers that it only takes 1 watt to produce a stunning 105dB with them). The RF-7 II is not quite as sensitive, so that cheap boombox might not be able to adequately drive them. However, any receiver with any pretensions to decent performance will be more than adequate.
 
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adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
He did not say they were inferior speakers. He said that it would be a waste of money buying expensive power amps to drive them. Given their sensitivity, unless one is trying to fill an auditorium with sound (or a room the size of an auditorium), or one is trying to go deaf very quickly, there is no need for much power for them, even if they will handle 250 watts. So it would be a waste of money buying a separate power amp to drive them, when one is going to be buying a receiver anyway. Probably, there is no surround receiver made by any reputable company that cannot drive those to levels that would be dangerous for one's hearing.

I once heard some Klipschorns driven by a cheap boombox, because thieves broke into the owner's house and stole his electronics, but evidently the speakers were too big to conveniently take. So, the owner was temporarily using a cheap boombox to drive them, until he bought new components. It worked surprisingly well (well, not so surprising when one considers that it only takes 1 watt to produce a stunning 105dB with them). The RF-7 II is not quite as sensitive, so that cheap boombox might not be able to adequately drive them. However, any receiver with any pretensions to decent performance will be more than adequate.
Seriously, I get all the sensitivity stuff... I'm not trying to be difficult, but don't answer for him.. he mentioned nothing of sensitivity, and only that separates would be a waste of money.. I was just curious as to why HE thought that... Perhaps the thought the speaker wouldn't be worth it- for reasons other than sensitivity...

Did you read any of my posts? I fully understand all of what you're trying to say..... I was curious as to what HE was saying...
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
Those speaker aren't gonna want much, though. They are crazy efficient and you'll likely never never exceed even a handful of watts.
Curious if thats a back handed comment on the Klipsch????
The amplifier is only going to supply the power that the speakers ask for. If the speakers only need (for the sake of discussion) 8 watts at any given time... all amplifiers capable of producing 8 watts in their specified operating range are equal.

You will never come anywhere near needing the power that either options you are looking at will provide. Headroom will never be an issue with those speakers. You could drive them easily with a 15 watt amplifier without issue.
No, it is not a backhanded compliment. Those Klipsch speakers are rated to put out 101 dB @ 1 meter @ 2.83 volts (1 watt, if they are 8 ohms). That is very loud, and if you play them that loud for long, you will damage your hearing. Of course, you will probably sit more than a meter away from them, but still, they will produce a lot of sound with very little power. It is common for speakers to require 10 times as much power (or more) to produce that amount of sound.





No. If two amplifiers are identical, except that one is capable of putting out more power than the other, they will sound exactly the same as long as they are not asked to put out any more power than the lower powered amplifier. Extra power only matters if it is actually used.
He did not say they were inferior speakers. He said that it would be a waste of money buying expensive power amps to drive them. Given their sensitivity, unless one is trying to fill an auditorium with sound (or a room the size of an auditorium), or one is trying to go deaf very quickly, there is no need for much power for them, even if they will handle 250 watts. So it would be a waste of money buying a separate power amp to drive them, when one is going to be buying a receiver anyway. Probably, there is no surround receiver made by any reputable company that cannot drive those to levels that would be dangerous for one's hearing.

I once heard some Klipschorns driven by a cheap boombox, because thieves broke into the owner's house and stole his electronics, but evidently the speakers were too big to conveniently take. So, the owner was temporarily using a cheap boombox to drive them, until he bought new components. It worked surprisingly well (well, not so surprising when one considers that it only takes 1 watt to produce a stunning 105dB with them). The RF-7 II is not quite as sensitive, so that cheap boombox might not be able to adequately drive them. However, any receiver with any pretensions to decent performance will be more than adequate.
Seriously, I get all the sensitivity stuff... I'm not trying to be difficult, but don't answer for him.. he mentioned nothing of sensitivity, and only that separates would be a waste of money.. I was just curious as to why HE thought that... Perhaps the thought the speaker wouldn't be worth it- for reasons other than sensitivity...

Did you read any of my posts? I fully understand all of what you're trying to say..... I was curious as to what HE was saying...
1st, I would like to point out that speaker manufacturers are notorious for inflated sensitivity ratings (and lots of other specs for that matter). Klipsch reviews often show they are guilty of this fudging of numbers. I have read quite a few fact pages over the years with independent measurements showing anywhere from -3 to -6 difference from what Klipsch claims.
A lot of manufacturers will take the peak sensitivity rating from a given frequency point and list that as how the speaker performs. Others are more honest/practical and will take the average over the frequency spectrum. Don’t be fooled, there are many ways to increase sensitivity with the detriment of sound quality.

Some manufacturers do this because they realize that an absolute ton of people purchase on measurements/stats without hearing the product or even finding a knowledgeable person to help them who will take their best interest to heart. Look at the recent HSU debacle on their sub review on this site. HSU is apparently furious and working like mad dogs to disprove and discredit Audioholics while frantically trying to find other reviews that show AH is wrong and that HSU is right. Why? Because they sell on specs. It’s in their best interest to have the most impressive specs and the lowest price.
That’s why online only companies and their marketing shtick (along with accompanying fanboys/inside plants) sometimes really get my blood hot.

There is a major conflict of interest between the company manufacturing the products and also producing that performance stat information. RARELY and with very few models, are online manufacturers allowing their products to be reviewed. They often, as we’ve seen in the AH subwoofer thread, try to control the results. AH didn’t cave, but I would bet so so many others absolutely DO.

It’s actually worse than Bose marketing, IMO. At least you can listen to Bose for free in a store rather than be forced to “buy & try”. Which, BTW, reminds me of As-seen-on-TV infomercials. If someone is ever selling you on their return policy…. they want your money in hand and are betting on the consumer accepting the product as good enough and not wanting to do the work to send it back.

Here are your problems with purchasing solely on spec….

1. The spec driven consumer who is doing the purchasing believes the numbers 1st, and not their ears. People hear what they are told to hear. This is why audio demos are recommended to go like this: Predict (Tell someone specifically what to listen for), Show (Play preselected demo), Confirm (Did you hear that?). This is a consumer suffering from psycho acoustics just as much as the consumer who feels that the more he spends the better it sounds. Both can be easily mislead by numbers before ever actually hearing anything.

2. Lots of things “sound good” to our ears, regardless of spec. If you played 10 different subwoofer tracks I bet very few consumers could tell you which one went down to 20hz and which was only 25, for example. And, again, depending on the demo…. errrr, SPEC….. How long can the sub actually hold that note without breakup? Same thing with speakers and sensitivity. Yeah, it might hit 98 at one point, but be down to 91 at others. What is real? What matters?

3. People bash Bose for not publishing specs, and rightfully so… but Bose is available to at least listen to…. for free… at a store. Online companies often times produce BS specs that 99.9% of consumers will NEVER know if they are correct or not. On top of that, you then have to “Buy & Try” in your home.

4. There are so many more things I could list about buying on spec, vs. buying on brand, vs. buying on OEM, vs. buying on price, vs. buying on…..

But I digress….

As far as powering those speakers with anything is concerned, well, that's a bit of a misnomer. I would not advise that. All "watts" are not created equal. Here are 3 different pieces of electronics I would not use to power those. All with low watts....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-2046

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-380

http://nuvotechnologies.com/simplese.htm

I also wouldn't use any sort of entry level off-brand receiver. I've tried that in several experiments on larger speakers and it does not end well! :eek:
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
OP,

To me, the bottom line is that if I want BIG sound out of a BIG speaker I need to have enough power to do so. I’m not even really referring to loudness here. Klipsch speakers, in general, typically offer more dynamics and detail at low volume listening. But, as with any speaker I’ve ever heard, at low volumes there is a tremendous amount of low-end & midrange lacking and there are lots of sounds lost or overpowered by some of the more attractive ones (meaning: the ones our brains/ears tend to focus on).

Why it’s important to power the speakers in question adequately…..

They have HUGE 10” woofers! You need power to really move those things and make them sing properly, even at lower volumes. Receivers today are heads and shoulders above where they were 10 years ago. All across the price spectrum you’ll see that quality, in general, has really gone up due to extreme competition between the major brands: Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz. Although, I will say that the entry level stuff in like the sub $500-$550 price range will still drag their behinds on entry level mid-range speakers. Besides power, there are other significant differences between the sub $1000 receivers and the upper tier flagship stuff. The quality of an amplifier and its electronic components absolutely matter if you have speakers that can perform.

The bottom line is that the flagship products from these receiver brands are so good today that they’ve really raised the floor for the need to go to separates. It’s tough to go off of spec sheets because there is a lot of false information out there. In the end, you typically don’t need $3k in electronics to make a $3400 pair of loudspeakers sound their best. $1300 - $1800 from a flagship receiver should provide everything those speakers need to sound their best in a typical family room/mid-large(ish) sized theater room and at very loud (theater or concert level) volumes.

Keep in mind, if we’re talking Revel Salon2, Canton Reference & Vento, or KEF Reference type of speakers then we’re having a totally different conversation as those speakers need a lot of power to move properly. Those are also in a totally different price point as well.

Hope some of this helps the OP and anyone else reading.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
More power is better IMO.

Used high-end separates are better IMO.

Don't buy into this "gonna sound the same" bit. It's just not true. For mass produced receivers/avrs with similar specs, yes. But not for every situation.

I just built a 2.0 rig using an old Denon POA 2200 amp I purchased for around $300.

I also purchased a Quad 99 pre-amp for around $300.

Be patient, wait, and watch. Jump at just the right time, and you can end-up with a very high-quality system for a fraction of retail.

If you buy wisely, you should always be able to get 100%+ of your money back at any time.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
You can give yourself a very simple lesson in the resale value by looking at used gear on Audiogon.

Don't judge by the selling price. Judge by the sold price.

Don't judge by one sell. Watch several.

See which items/brands move, and which ones don't.

Study desired products. Pretty easy to figure-out.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
As far as powering those speakers with anything is concerned, well, that's a bit of a misnomer. I would not advise that. All "watts" are not created equal. Here are 3 different pieces of electronics I would not use to power those. All with low watts....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-2046

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-380

http://nuvotechnologies.com/simplese.htm

I also wouldn't use any sort of entry level off-brand receiver. I've tried that in several experiments on larger speakers and it does not end well! :eek:
Care to expound? 1 watt is 1 watt is 1 watt, provided distortion levels are beyond the threshold of human hearing. I listened to the RF7 with a Sonic Impact t-amp MANY times. Never had an issue- could not be distinguished from Carver amplifier in a blind test.

I know this topic has gotten beat to death on these forums, but it still fascinates me. I probably would not hook up a nice speaker at all to the PYLE amp- Just based on product reputation, but assuming one functions correctly, it should be indistinguishable from other amplifiers.

That said, I'm a fan of having products and paying for products that are built well, built to last, and find value in those features.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
More power is better IMO.
Won't make a difference if "less power" is never exceeded.

Used high-end separates are better IMO.
Why? What do they do that an integrated can't? (to be fair, I use separates, probably always will now- placebo)


I just built a 2.0 rig using an old Denon POA 2200 amp I purchased for around $300.

I also purchased a Quad 99 pre-amp for around $300.

Be patient, wait, and watch. Jump at just the right time, and you can end-up with a very high-quality system for a fraction of retail.

If you buy wisely, you should always be able to get 100%+ of your money back at any time.
I agree- Those are both extremely well built components at excellent prices that will last for years to come. Good investment. A 600 dollar Integrated/AVR (Whilst providing the same audible qualities) can't really even compare in terms of overall build quality and longevity.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Care to expound? 1 watt is 1 watt is 1 watt, provided distortion levels are beyond the threshold of human hearing. I listened to the RF7 with a Sonic Impact t-amp MANY times. Never had an issue- could not be distinguished from Carver amplifier in a blind test.

I know this topic has gotten beat to death on these forums, but it still fascinates me. I probably would not hook up a nice speaker at all to the PYLE amp- Just based on product reputation, but assuming one functions correctly, it should be indistinguishable from other amplifiers.
DBT is another form of selling a product. DBT gets beaten to death here, just as ID brands do.

It's very easy to spot those who support DBT.

1) People selling the product.

2) People who own the product.

Resale value is a much better blind test. Knowing I can get all of my money back at any given time is of way more importance to me.

Pride of ownership is another.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Won't make a difference if "less power" is never exceeded.
Any time you are able to reach the limit of the speaker while the amp is well below it's limit. My 2200(300w@4ohm) doesn't even get hot while driving the 4ohm 87db load to ear bleeding levels.

OTOH, my Adcom 7605(175w@4ohm) gets very hot. It also runs-out-of-gas. I can send it into protection mode, and things get a little nasty before. Very compressed sounding.

The 2200 just gets louder. Detail remains the same.

Why? What do they do that an integrated can't? (to be fair, I use separates, probably always will now- placebo)
Depends on the integrate.
 
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