Separate amplifier (s) or internal?

audioman00

Audioholic
I have an IMHO awsome yamaha receiver that sounds better than any of the HK,AKAI,Pioneer,Kenwood etc. that I have previously had, But, The question is: Would I benefit from running a separate more powerfull amplifier to my main spkrs? I have no complaints about the highly underated 80wpc of the yammi, but maybe more power would in turns be more efficient and sound better. ?I dunno? What do you guys think? and maybe a suggestion on a really nice audiophile grade amp to use. Thanks for the help! -Brandon :confused:
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
If the underrated 80wpc is generating sufficient SPL for your room without clipping then there is no need for a seperate amp, however if you do need one and since you like the sound of the Yamaha, check out for Yamaha's MX-1 or MX-2 on eBay.

The only problem is that you can only use a 2 channel amp for music listening and you would have to reduce the its volume when doing HT for proper level matching.
 
rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
I think a big problem that most of us have here is never being satisfied with what we own. If you are truely satisfied as you say you are... don't buy a amplifier. I am sure there are other ways the money can be used to improve your HT.

P.S. Let your ears be the judge. Not numbers on a spec sheet.. :cool:
 
H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
audioman00 said:
I have no complaints about the highly underated 80wpc of the yammi
If you provided more information on your Yamaha receiver and the speakers it would be easier to help. Ultimately though, if you are happy with it now, there's no need to spend more.
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
You sound like you are itching to get more power from your system. I am not sure if the 80wpc is really underrated. Knowing japanese receivers, I'd say they're over-stated. But do check out the electric power consumption. Add up the rated power out from each channel. Their totals should fall below the electric power consumption. You cannot give more what you took in. That's immutable physics.

If your reciever has pre-outs, there are excellent power amps out there to consider. Just be sure, they're properly specified. Check to make sure the spec gives a conservative power spec that is measured on a CONTINUOUS basis at 8 ohms, 20hz-20Khz, ALL Channels Driven. Don't be misled by those specs that rate the power in only one channel at 1Khz into 4 or 6 ohm loads. They're anything but conservative. Just my thoughts.
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
WOW! didnt know all Japanese amps and receivers are over rated in regards to their power capacity. All the old issues of Stereo Review and Australian Hi-Fi tests show that most amps from Pioneer, Marantz,JVC, Denon and Yamaha usually delivered substantialy more power than what they claimed in their brochures. Pick up a Yamaha or Denon or Manratz reciever today and you will see a heavy transformer and capacitors. In fact the Yamaha recievers like the RXV-1400 and 2400 weigh in quite a lot more than their competition and it is usually due to their higher capacity transformers and use of heavier capacitors, if you need more proof, check out Audioholics first look on the Z-9 and see the massive caps and transformer used.
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Among receivers, Yamaha are probably among the heaviest out there. But for a 9.1-channel amp rated at 170wpc to weigh a measly 66 lbs betrays an underpowered condition. My old 5.1 Onkyo 100wpc weighs about 50 lbs and there's only a 16 lb difference???

A ROTEL power amp, the RMB1095 is conservatively rated at 200 watts CONTINUOUS power into 5 channels, all channels driven, and weighs 75lbs and actually has optional wheels under it. Even the Aragon 8008x5 amp which is a 200wpc 5-channel amp weighs in at more than 100lbs.

You may get awed at the power torroids and caps on the Z9, especially if you've seen other similarly underpowered designs. But they look the same on some stereo power amps of slightly higher ratings. In fact the Z9 brochure boasts of a couple of 28,000 mf caps, rated at 90 volts. I know of some 2-channel amps that uses FOUR 23,000mf caps rated at 120 vots. Nothing impressive about the Z9 in this regard. They're heavy alright. But they should be heavier for the touted 170 wpc into 7 channels.

But forget about weight. Check at the power consumption figures. Many jap receivers like the Pioneer VSX-D811 has a power consumption of 280 watts but it is shamelessly rated at 100 watts into 6 channels. How can a reciever deliver 600 watts when it eats only 280 watts? Same with some of the newer Pioneers, Onkyos, Kenwoods and Denons. They overstate their power rating but their power consumption betrays the lie.

Just to illustrate in contrast, the British ROTEL RMB-1066 is a 6-channel 60wpc amp that consumes 750 watts of power. The US-made Acurus A250 is a 2-ch 250wpc amp that consumes 1,200 watts. The US-made Aragon 800X5 in the above example eats more than 2,500 watts of electricity. You want more?

Does that speak of power efficiiency? BS. You tell me the japs have learned how to extract blood out of turnips? IF they can extract 1,000 watts total CONTINUOUS out of a power conumption of even 800 watts, they deserve a NOBEL prize in Physics for overcoming the immutable law that says, "you can't give more than what you took in." Period.

If you read those technical specs of most jap recievers and amps, you'd notice most of them are rated at 1khz and they are at least candid enough not to indicate "ALL channels driven". MEasuring a power output at 1khz with only one channel driven can extract the largest figures if you want to impress. That's because all the power available from the transformers are channeled into just that one amp channel driving just one frequency.

A CONSERVATIVE power rating is one that states the power as CONTINUOUS into 8 ohms, 20hz- to 20Khz, ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN. In this regard I can only name NAD, Rotel, Harman-Kardon who use this parameters as being conservatively rated, together with the Acurus, Aragon, Bryston, Fasse, Parasound, and other US and European brands.

Pls don't get me wrong as being critical of Jap receivers and amps. Let me reiterate that my criticism is against thier technical write-ups, not their units. What for? I can only imagine to mislead the unwary and uninformed. Like i said, in overstating the facts, they betray some degree of insecurities about their otherwise excellent products.
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
av_phile said:
Among receivers, Yamaha are probably among the heaviest out there. But for a 9.1-channel amp rated at 170wpc to weigh a measly 66 lbs betrays an underpowered condition. My old 5.1 Onkyo 100wpc weighs about 50 lbs and there's only a 16 lb difference???

A ROTEL power amp, the RMB1095 is conservatively rated at 200 watts CONTINUOUS power into 5 channels, all channels driven, and weighs 75lbs and actually has optional wheels under it. Even the Aragon 8008x5 amp which is a 200wpc 5-channel amp weighs in at more than 100lbs.

Nothing impressive there then, for only 2 channels of amplification, the Yamaha MX-1000 at 260Wx2 continuous at 8ohms weighs 68lb and has 10000 mF of capacitance with dual 750VA transformers. It is miniscule compared to Yamaha's MX-2000 which weighs and even heftier 78lb and only delivers 130W or the mightiest of them all the Yamaha MX-10000 at 151lb delivering 330Wx2. Point is that HT amps dont have to put up 170x9 simetaneously and when Audioholics tests the Z-9, I am sure it would meet their criteria to the specs.

You may get awed at the power torroids and caps on the Z9, especially if you've seen other similarly underpowered designs. But they look the same on some stereo power amps of slightly higher ratings. In fact the Z9 brochure boasts of a couple of 28,000 mf caps, rated at 90 volts. I know of some 2-channel amps that uses FOUR 23,000mf caps rated at 120 vots. Nothing impressive about the Z9 in this regard. They're heavy alright. But they should be heavier for the touted 170 wpc into 7 channels.

As long as they deliver close to their rated wattage, the requirment would be sufficient and 170W is no mean feat.

But forget about weight. Check at the power consumption figures. Many jap receivers like the Pioneer VSX-D811 has a power consumption of 280 watts but it is shamelessly rated at 100 watts into 6 channels. How can a reciever deliver 600 watts when it eats only 280 watts? Same with some of the newer Pioneers, Onkyos, Kenwoods and Denons. They overstate their power rating but their power consumption betrays the lie.

It isnt only Jap receivers per se, many so-called mega bucks Euro as well as US made receivers take the same liberty as Pioneer and the power consuption rating in the back is for nominal only, not peak as in case of the Yamaha Z-9 as well as their MX-1000 amp, the back says 450VA on the MX-1 as nominal, but the brochure rates the peak rating at 1500VA as the twin 750VA transformers would indicate. Do you really think the manufacturers would jeopardize their name for this kind of fallacy? Check the RXV-2400 brochure for the peak power consumption rating and you will see it is much higher than the one printed on the back of the unit. This is where you just jumped the gun without even checking all the facts.

Just to illustrate in contrast, the British ROTEL RMB-1066 is a 6-channel 60wpc amp that consumes 750 watts of power. The US-made Acurus A250 is a 2-ch 250wpc amp that consumes 1,200 watts. The US-made Aragon 800X5 in the above example eats more than 2,500 watts of electricity. You want more?

Does that speak of power efficiiency? BS. You tell me the japs have learned how to extract blood out of turnips? IF they can extract 1,000 watts total CONTINUOUS out of a power conumption of even 800 watts, they deserve a NOBEL prize in Physics for overcoming the immutable law that says, "you can't give more than what you took in." Period.

No Japanese dont have the mental capacity to even come close to the superior European brain, as a matter of fact no Asian can even dare to go into that territory.

If you read those technical specs of most jap recievers and amps, you'd notice most of them are rated at 1khz and they are at least candid enough not to indicate "ALL channels driven". MEasuring a power output at 1khz with only one channel driven can extract the largest figures if you want to impress. That's because all the power available from the transformers are channeled into just that one amp channel driving just one frequency.

That is what an ideal HT situation decrees as one never sees a situation where all channels are driven.

A CONSERVATIVE power rating is one that states the power as CONTINUOUS into 8 ohms, 20hz- to 20Khz, ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN. In this regard I can only name NAD, Rotel, Harman-Kardon who use this parameters as being conservatively rated, together with the Acurus, Aragon, Bryston, Fasse, Parasound, and other US and European brands.

In many tests done by various European magazines, Yamaha and Marantz consistently test with higher power ratings than the names you mention above.

Yamaha brochure states their rating at DIN 20Hz-20KHz as well as at 1KHz.

Pls don't get me wrong as being critical of Jap receivers and amps. Let me reiterate that my criticism is against thier technical write-ups, not their units. What for? I can only imagine to mislead the unwary and uninformed. Like i said, in overstating the facts, they betray some degree of insecurities about their otherwise excellent products.
Yes as the Europeans typically over price their technicaly ordinairy products just on the basis of hype, myth and lineage if there was ever any. You arent being critical of Japanese brands, in one shot, you have just wiped out all their past as well as present offerings and acheivments as sheer marketing gimmick. It seems that all of us who are unfortunate to own these lowly, over rated, under powered wheezers of Japanese products should hang their heads in shame, or else junk them and rush to the European or US brands and pay heavy price for their entrance fee and that too all for myth. Well some of us here are quite contended with our anaemic, underpowered Japanese inferior and lightweight products.

BY THE WAY, the word Jap is a derrogatory one as bad as Chink, Gook etc. Please refer to them as Japanese, at least give them that much even if you think they are inferior to you and your products.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Yamahaluver said:
the RXV-1400 and 2400 weigh in quite a lot more than their competition and it is usually due to their higher capacity transformers and use of heavier capacitors, if you need more proof, check out Audioholics first look on the Z-9 and see the massive caps and transformer used.
Why should he look at the z-9 in order to make a comparison based on your recommendation of the 1400/2400?

By the way...

The Yamaha 2400 are 34.2 lbs each
The Pioneer Elite 53tx is 38 lbs.
Denon 3803 38.4 lbs.

Though you re right to say the 1400 is the heavier in it's price class, the 2400 is simply not.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
audioman00 said:
I have an IMHO awsome yamaha receiver that sounds better than any of the HK,AKAI,Pioneer,Kenwood etc. that I have previously had, But, The question is: Would I benefit from running a separate more powerfull amplifier to my main spkrs? I have no complaints about the highly underated 80wpc of the yammi, but maybe more power would in turns be more efficient and sound better. ?I dunno? What do you guys think? and maybe a suggestion on a really nice audiophile grade amp to use. Thanks for the help! -Brandon :confused:

The only way the Yahmaha receivers appear underated is in two channel mode (which is how their watt-per-channel figures are derived). Most receivers will do around 10% to 15% more than rms when only in two channel mode. When you run your 80 watt per channel receiver will all channels driven simultaneously and see the numbers, then tell me if it is "underated". The Yahamaha RX-V730 tested in Sound and Vision april 2003? rated at 75 watts rms per channel x 6 did a measley 26.5 watts rms all channels driven simultaneously.

This in no way means that the receiver will sound bad. They get good reviews on their sound quality and features. It just means it will not do too well with inefficent speakers, a large room, or be real dynamic when all channels are running simultaneously.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
In that particular review, it states that the 26 wattage figures were measured after the unit went into its protection mode. The review does not indicate the figures before this occured. This protection mode is a common feature that many all-in-one units (ie. receivers) in this price range possess.

I agree that one would not be wise to drive inefficient speakers with sub $1000 units. Even then, the line gets blurry...

best,
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Japanese cars, lawn equipment, stereo equipment, motorcycles, and pretty much anything with an engine or electronic, are the best.

BUT, when it comes to getting the most POWER for your dollar, you can't beat a good ole American V8 or healthy amp! :D
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Sorry to ruffle feathers among japanese (not jap) reciever/amp owners. Just for you info, I also own Yamaha, Denon and Onkyo stuff, receivers, amps and playes, starting out with Sansui units early on.

I may not have said it in a nice way. But I just want people who buy these products to have a better understanding of what they are getting. Like I said, it is not their products I am distressed with, it's their technical write-ups. And not all, but many late models. My early sansui and onkyo products did state their power rating conservatively, using CONTINUOUS, across the entire audible frequencies, and with ALL CHANELS DRIVEN. Something many late japanese models are not saying when they publish their power figures.

And yes I agree that many boutique brands out there, including some that i've mentioned, have prices of mythical proportions. But at least their technical write-ups are anything but over-stated. Their marketing hypes are focused elsewhere. But let me just say that precisely because these exotic brands do not benefit from mass production and economies of scale that virtually al consumer Japanese electronics have, they carrry fantastic SRPs. Same with speakers and players whose SRPs could be as much a product of marketing hype as the fact that they are hand-built or produced in scant quantities.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Even if it did go into protection, what is the point of having a receiver that cannot drive all of its channels simultaneously into 8 ohms? The last time I checked, movies use all five channels, as does five/seven channel stereo for music, dolby pro logic II music, ect.
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
I think the bottom line here is if you want more power you're simply going to have to pay for it. There just isn't enough room inside a standard sized receiver to build in serious amp sections. The flagships of several companies certainly have tried but 170WPC out of a receiver is a helluva lot different than an amp. As long as people understand the difference & aren't misled there shouldn't be any huge gripes. But I agree with several posts here in regards to false claims. I don't like it! But that's why I enjoy this forum. Two years ago I had no friggin clue about the differences in power ratings. I can now shop more intelligently from what I've learned, & not just for receivers or amps.
Receiver manufacturers do a good job of providing us with an opportunity to build a HT/sound system on almost any budget. I like that.
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
zipper said:
As long as people understand the difference & aren't misled there shouldn't be any huge gripes.
I hope they do understand. This is all what i want to achieve in my posts - no false expectations from what you buy.
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
av phile,
I appreciate your input in this forum. I am not an EE but do possess a fair understanding of Ohms Law. I agree that,in regards to power claims,that the #'s many times do not add up.My question is: Are they really supposed to? If there really is no "standard" to rate a power supply,except WPC,how does the true layman make a choice.We on this forum all know that the $199 Sony that claims 100 wpc is really a joke. But there are millions who don't.
 

audioman00

Audioholic
can't get put more out than you take in

:) This is a very true satement, I never thought of it that way :D

All I have to say in this matter is please folks, buy a decent receiver. Spend the extra to get something that is not built like a pez dispencer! It really does HAVE to weigh at least 25-60lbs to produce anywhere near that amount of true RMS power. I am ashamed of the industry for some of the garbage they produce these days :mad: 100 wpc,40hz-20khz @ 0.08%thd MY ***! ;)
 
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