Separate Amplifier Quandry

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
highfihoney said:
others may dissagree but from my experience you will get better performance running as much seperate amplification as possible.
I think very few people would disagree with you for reasons you cited, but I suspect even fewer people would be able to actually hear the differences.
 
G

gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
thanks for all the good dialogue. i DEFINITELY want to keep things as similar and as balanced as possible across the front three speakers (ideally, the front 3 speakers would all be timbre matched from the same manufacturer and all driven by identical amps). i already have a center ch speaker from a different manufacturer than my left/rights. so, i think using a hodge podge of amplification would only increase the risk of messing up the front soundstage.

thus, i am now looking at 2 options
1) a BK 200.1 for the center and a BK 200.2 for the left/rights
or
2) a BK 200.5

the 200.5 is basically 22' deep once you account for wires and enough room so that those wires are not crushed. that is a slight problem from the standpoint of component cabinets and fitting the amp inside. on the other hand, it seems silly to have an expensive ($1400, i think) dedicated monoblock on my center channel for use only during movies.

i guess i could buy the 200.2 for my left/rights and use one of my audiosource amp (200 watts bridged) for my center. it would be a different manufacturer, but at least it would be a a closer power match than my receiver alone could put out to the center channel. thoughts?
 
G

gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
jcpanny:

thanks for the tip. i'll check it out. i am probably going to buy the B&K 200.2. I am funny about buying big-tickets items online. I like to have a store to go to if there is a problem. In ancy case, I know the 200.2 will make me happy for 2 ch music. and, i will temporarily use one of my audiosources (200 watts bridged) for the center and surrounds. with movie soundtracks being all over the board in terms of quality, i think it will only be the rare instance (if at all) where i will notice a minor difference in the output from my B&K on the left/right and the audiosurce in the center.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
gcmarshall said:
...
yes, i agree. even with my cheap audiosource amps run in bridged mode, i heard distinct improvements in nearly all of my well-recorded DVD's versus my receiver alone. bono's voice in the Slane Castle DVD was previously muted and weak. with the amps, his voice sends chills down my spine. as someone who is generally cheap, i certainly appreciate the few previous posts from mtry and nick suggesting that separate amps may be throwing money to the wind. but, i am a convert and am lucky to be in a position to buy some serious adult toys .

In that case, you also need to know about human perceptions and the senses, how easy it is to fool the senses and distort reality.

Hence, unless you did a careful comparison of the two conditions I would suggest that maybe perception was not fully reliable? Science, a long time ago, realized theses issues and developed what is called the double blind protocol. More recently, 30+ years ago, audio started using these protocols with interesting outcomes:D
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
PENG said:
I think very few people would disagree with you for reasons you cited, but I suspect even fewer people would be able to actually hear the differences.
i totally disagree,it dont take a golden ear to hear differences in amplifiers it only requires that a person actually tries a few different amps:)
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
highfihoney said:
i totally disagree,it dont take a golden ear to hear differences in amplifiers it only requires that a person actually tries a few different amps:)
I'm a little confused, :confused: I've read a lot of people saying that many modern amps are very transparent and that there really isn't (shouldn't be?) a difference in "sound" between quality amps, just power output. I've also seen people saying there is a noticeable difference in "sound" between all amps.

Is the real difference (not percieved) noticeable at equal power outputs or is just the level at which each amp outputs sound?
 
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gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
well, the quandry deepens. went to my local B&K retailer tonight (magnolia, a best buy company). in typical bix-box store fashion, they can't get the B&K 200.2 (as of now - i usually get what i want somehow), even though they sell other B&K amps. looks like magnolia is just a best buy in disguise. a real custom AV shop would tell me they would get it no matter what they had to do to earn my business.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
I'm a little late getting into this thread but here goes. I have a B&K 7250 amp which is the older number for a 200.5. I like it a lot. It does tend to run hot so I keep it on a separate stand. I liked the wiring options for it since my speakers need to be biwired and the subs (I have two) also come from the left and right speaker outputs so I needed to have three 12g wires attatched to each left and right output. The B&K handles this well with two 12g twisted together and the sub wire attatched via a banana plug. See my pictures in the thread "At Long Last" in the theater photos section. Other amps do this as well and I can't really give you another reason why I chose it over the Rotel except that I bought a B&K preamp and they would match (big deal).

On the down side, it is a heavy amp at about 70 lbs and there are no handles which would be nice. The power button is very flimsy but I only use it to turn the whole thing off during a thunderstorm. I think they fudged on the power rating too. Based upon principles elsewhere in audioholics I estimate it to be between 175 and 185 wpc in reality. This may have been addressed when the model numbers changed.

If you can find a Sherbourn amp which is identical to the Outlaw apparently, you might like it. It is essentially five separate amps in one box. That Emotiva looks nice too. Cheaper than B&K too. If there is anything I would upgrade it would be to a seven channel amp to biamp the main speakers. I would need to replace my 7250 since I don't have room for another box, and I don't have that kind of cash to spare.

So what are these amps gonna push anyway?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Jack Hammer said:
I'm a little confused, :confused: I've read a lot of people saying that many modern amps are very transparent and that there really isn't (shouldn't be?) a difference in "sound" between quality amps, just power output. I've also seen people saying there is a noticeable difference in "sound" between all amps.

Is the real difference (not percieved) noticeable at equal power outputs or is just the level at which each amp outputs sound?

It's more of an output issue.

Take car audio and low spl competition subs. Bass is an area where a strong amp is needed. When one compares a weak amp to a high end amp as far as car audio goes, there's a night and day difference. I've got two dual voice coil 4 ohm subs wired in parallel. The class D amp I am using is seeing a 1 ohm load. If I had a low end Pyramid amplifier trying to push these, I'd have a serious fire or a dead amp in a matter of minutes.

I think the same is true with home audio. If you take demanding speakers and expect solid bass while listening at reference levels, you better put some money into your amp section. Many of those who choose separate amps prefer to listen to music without subwoofers. Many demanding tower speakers do a fine job with bass when pushed with proper amplification.

Bass management has curbed the need for high power amplifiers. Many nowadays purchase large powered subwoofers, and leave the receiver to drive the mids and highs on the 5, 6, or 7 channel surround speakers. They aren't getting the full potential out of their woofers, but with the powered sub, it's not necessary. This holds true primarily for movies and surround music.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
highfihoney said:
i totally disagree,it dont take a golden ear to hear differences in amplifiers it only requires that a person actually tries a few different amps:)
You confuse me, I responded to the following:

Originally Posted by highfihoney
others may dissagree but from my experience you will get better performance running as much seperate amplification as possible.


You already anticiptated others may disagree with you, but I understood your comments were based on your experience.

Well, if you read my response again you would notice that I actually agreed with you that one should get better performance with separates. Based on my own experience though, few people could "actually" hear the difference (i.e. better performance). Perhaps I should substitute the word "few" with "not everyone", to be more politically acceptable. I should also add that there were times when I thought I heard differences between amps while people around me did not. Even when I thought I heard the differences, it was never "day and night", or "huge" type of difference. That said, I was talking about comparing something like a Yamaha RXV-2400, Denon AVR-3805, to amplifiers such as Adcom, Anthem, NAD etc. If I were to compare them to one of those top of the line McIntosh, Krell, Conrad Johnson etc., may be the difference would be more obvious.

I don't doubt you could hear the differences between amps, but I, and many of my friends couldn't, not reliably anyway. May be some of us are just not as gifted, and there is really nothing to disagree about.
 
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pearsall001

Full Audioholic
I think one would be hard pressed to actually hear a difference regardles of price or name. Slight improvements, maybe but the mind & ears can really play tricks on you. We hear what we want to hear.
 
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gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
DAN,

thanks for your info and for telling me how your 7250 has performed for you. curiously, B&K's literature showing specs for its amps do not mention 20hz-20khz in stating its power output rating. an unrelated website i found showed the B&K power specs only measured at 1Khz. thus, i am not confident that their 225 wpc (for the 200.2, for example) is an accurate rating. that being said, B&K did write me to tell me that they rate all of their amps across the frequency spectrum. it just begs the question why their literature and their web page does not plainly state this for the world to see.

in ancy case, the 200.2 is a good price point and i thought was locally available. turns out it may not be. back to square one.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Many online websites are authorized to sell the products they offer. Many are actual stores. I am not, in any way, scared to buy from a reputable website. The product has to be shipped to a dealer the same way it has to be shipped to you. And, many times you can get a better product for a better price. I do believe in keeping my business local and having a good relationship with my local dealer. And, I will pay a little more for the added security. But, when the merchandise is not available, or up-to-snuff, there is no other option. Other than a long drive.:(

I have not purchased from this link, so you will have to research for yourself:
http://www.hometheaterbythesea.com/Amps-C974.aspx#
 
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indcrimdefense

Audioholic
after numerous demos of various components over the past year, I can't say that I ever noticed a difference in sound quality between a 2 channel amp and a 5 channel amp used for only 2 channel. I certainly heard differences in sound quality between different amplifiers, but that differences heard between different amplifiers also depends on what your using as a pre-pro. B&K makes a great product for the money, and I demoed a B&K stereo pre-amp & B&K 125.2 amp, which I eventually returned, after comparing the B&K amp to a demo krell kav-2250, which I purchased. for comparison, both amps were used w/ am avm 20 pre-pro, and the krell made a noticeable sonic improvement in clarity, detail and obviously power. however i was shopping a couple of days ago and heard the same B&K set up with the new paradigm flagship towers and it sounded fantastic.

after months of demos and experimentation, my advice when buying any component is to demo at home before purchasing, or at a minimum get the store to set up whatever your looking to purchase with as close to your speakers and components as possible, but this is a far distant second to a home demo. certain components just don't sound that good when paired together, or perhaps better put, certain components when paired together don't make a sonic improvement which justify what you paid for the new component. for example, a cary cinema 6 pre-pro and cinema 5 amp sounded fantastic paired together, but the same amp with my denon 2805 receiver was not much of an improvement, and certainly not enough of an improvement to justify the cary amp $5000 msrp. however a krell showcase 5 when paired w/ the 2805 sounded fantastic.

when i purchased the krell kav-2250, i was not necessarily looking for a 2 channel amp, but got such a good price on it that i could not pass it up. the krell paired w/ the avm 20 was as good as a combo for music as i have heard at home, and i have now ordered a avm 30 (400 less & several upgrades over the avm 20) which i am anxiously awaiting the arrival of.

another option for a 3 channel amp is the cary cinema 3 (3x200). the cinema 2 is one of stereophile's 2005 recommended components, and the cinema 5 has received alot of awards as well. i loved the cary cinema 5 amp i had for several lenghty demos, but always had a hum w/ it that i could not get rid of. after talking to cary, it was there opinion that it was specific to that particular demo unit, and they wanted it returned to the factory, so i didn't buy it. i eventually need to buy another amp, and am still considering buying a cary amp as one of the possibilities.

my best advice is to do some home demos and listen for yourself, and then you can make an informed purchasing decision.
 
G

gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
thanks everybody. i have also considered the B&K 200.5 (5 ch) as 3 ch amp for my front 3 speakers (and using the 2 surround channels to bi-amp my main left/rights). i know the grand debate about bi-amping (probably little if any benefit, which i believe), but i am really trying to get as good 2 ch performance as possible, while at the same time having a seamless soundstage across the front three speakers (and while buying locally and not spending Krell-type money).
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
gcmarshall said:
thanks everybody. i have also considered the B&K 200.5 (5 ch) as 3 ch amp for my front 3 speakers (and using the 2 surround channels to bi-amp my main left/rights). i know the grand debate about bi-amping (probably little if any benefit, which i believe), but i am really trying to get as good 2 ch performance as possible, while at the same time having a seamless soundstage across the front three speakers (and while buying locally and not spending Krell-type money).
B&K amps sound good to me but their damping factors are not very high. Those numbers are high enough for me, but some (e.g. mulester7) may want them higher.
 
R

rollinrocker

Audioholic
marshall,

I can only say that i've had the rotel 1095 in my system for about eight months. It is an excellent amp for surround and 2-channel duties, you would not be shortchanged in any way. I love the amp. That said, a friend of mine uses a b&k in his setup, and i think it sounds great! His amp is 5x105, and i and i would recommend it highly.
 
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gcmarshall

Full Audioholic
so, i ordered the BK 200.2 (2x225 into 8 ohms) amp from magnolia tonight. they had to order it from their seattle flagship store. should be about a week to arrive at my local store where i will pick it up. i will post thoughts once i get it up and running. of course, the last time i had an electronics store (hi fi buys) order an expensive piece of equipment for me, the box showed up at the store looking as if it had been dropped from a high speed 18 wheeler on a dark wet interstate and then run over by a car. needless to say, hi fi buys (unable to find a replacement and unwilling to work too hard for my business) lost that sale quicker than they could blink. hopefully i will have better luck this time.
 
The13thGryphon

The13thGryphon

Audioholic
Magnolia is a pretty good store. I think they'll do right by you. I've purchased gear from them in the past.
 

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