Sealed box frequency question

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi all! I’ve read the speaker design books through 1 time and am starting to work my way through some longhand speaker math. My first project is going to be a subwoofer, and as I’m still teaching myself through the equations with the goal right now of just getting the theory down, I’m already stumbling on a question:
In sealed boxes, how does one go about getting a good strong low extension?
My first run through with a Dayton ultimax 12” driver gave me a larger than recommended box and a Fb of between 34Hz and 29, depending on playing with Qtc(did .707 and .669 just to experiment.)
I don’t necessarily mind a large box, and I recognize this might not be the right driver for the goal... What should I look for in the specs that will help me achieve around -3dB at 20Hz? Is it just as simple as finding a low Fs?
Many thanks!
Glad to see you are seriously getting into speaker design.

First there is an easy way to spot if a driver should be loaded sealed or ported. Take Fs and divide it by Qes. If the ratio is less then 50 then that driver needs to be in a sealed enclosure. If the ratio is over 100 then the driver leads some acoustic loading. Between 50 and 100 the driver may work either way.

Now the important point is that a high Q system is going to have a prominent peaked resonance and be a nasty thumper. Some pop enthusiasts like that. I don't.

As Q is lowered there is loss of sensitivity and efficiency, Fs tends to rise and roll off transitions from fourth to second order. This is easiest seen in pipes like the TLs I design. A closed pipe with no damping has high output at the fundamental resonance. It has high output and is efficient. However it is resonant and has two peaks of impedance. It rolls off below resonance fourth order. Now if you sacrifice some output and efficiency by adding damping until you get one impedance peak, then you get second order roll off and the reproduction is essentially non resonant and low Q. Now system Q what ever you do will always be a little higher than the Qts of the driver. For low Q accurate reproduction you need to start with lower Q drivers. A ported reflex enclosure can not be damped in the fashion above or the box resonance is totally killed.

Now in a sealed enclosure F3 will always be substantially higher than the F3 of the driver. Also the lower driver Qts the higher F3 will be above driver Fs.

Now we get to Hoffman's Irons man's law. This says that low frequency output decreases with enclosure size.

Now the only reason to design drivers for sealed enclosures and build them is to reduce enclosure size. The penalty is massive inefficiency.

So if you have the space you don't build bass systems using sealed boxes. The downsides are highly significant.

The requirements for a good sealed sub, is a massive driver. It needs high power handling and very high excursion limits. Rear cone radiation is lost, and the system can only couple to the room from the front of the driver, which is very inefficient. There is no acoustic coupling like a Helmholtz resonator, a pipe, or a horn. In the latter three forms of loading the cone excursion is controlled by pressure changes behind the cone which are transformed to air displacement at the openings (ports or mouth).

So in a sealed alignment lots of power will be required, powering an expensive driver. Eq will be required at 12 db per octave starting just above F3. It is not possible to design or build a sealed sub without this equalization. This has to be part of the design.

If you have the space, in my view it is folly to do a sealed design. A design that can convert pressure behind the cone to air displacement is far preferable. If you have the space, horns and pipes are the best solution as reproduction can be made non resonant, something a reflex ported design can not quite match even under optimal circumstances.

Finally a word about where system Q should fall. As Swerd has pointed out it is accepted wisdom that 0.7 is the aim. However I don't think that is correct, and I'm not alone in that. The problem is that it is not easy to design and develop truly low Q (0.5 or lower) where reproduction is truly aperiodic and therefore essentially non resonant. We have become accustomed to the warmth of slightly resonant reproduction. However if you listen critically to live acoustic instruments, you can tell that your speakers are not really accurate. Really accurate bass reproduction demands a lower Q than 0.7. At first that lack of that artificial warmth takes people aback, but once that becomes you reference you are never happy again with higher Q bass resonances.

You have asked an important question that goes to the heart of getting really accurate and satisfying bass reproduction. Moving coil loudspeaker based systems seldom achieve this and very, very few commercial designs.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Glad to see you are seriously getting into speaker design.
First, thank you! I understand you have a good deal going on, and I am thankful for you taking the time to share with me.
I understand, in a loose sense, everything you wrote. ;) As I pointed out, I'm very early in this path. reading 4 or 5 books is not internalization or mastery! Rather the most dangerous time. :) I worked my way through the equations Alden discusses for designing a sealed enclosure with that Dayton 12" driver I referenced earlier in this thread. I know its not something I will build, but I'm doing the exercise for the experience of doing it.
Some of my numbers matched Dayton's recommendations somewhat, but not others. I'll re-read the chapter of course, and take another crack at it. I really feel it is important to understand the relations between parameters rather than just playing with a CAD. (I'll get there too, later this year, I hope!)
Admittedly, as I was immediately smitten with the sound of the Phil 3s, I am very interested in TLs and how they work. As a good deal of my listening is 2-channel with subs, I would like to have very good bass support for the 3s later this year. (The 3's should arrive within the next 2 months if all goes well.) In the meantime, I have my Outlaw X-13s to handle things. Of course those 3s are capable of full range production, though as I understand the Scan Speak woofers near their excursion limit at 20Hz. As I do like organ music, I want to make certain I have the appropriate bass support to be able to handle the octave from 15-30Hz.
That is my basic near term goal. I would also like to be able to build out the speakers for our greatroom. Not meant to be a true Hi-Fi rig, but I do want it to be... capable.

Regardless, you mentioned something at the end of your post regarding the Qts... and I would appreciate if you could elaborate, please. In your opinion, what is the best Qtc for bass reproduction: you suggested lower than .7... but how much, please?

Again, thank you. I hope we get to talk more!

Cheers,
R
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Finally a word about where system Q should fall. As Swerd has pointed out it is accepted wisdom that 0.7 is the aim.
I believe I meant that a system Q = 0.7 is often the accepted compromise, not the aim. If my previous post didn't say that outright, I'm saying it now. A properly designed, critically damped, bass alignment where total system Q = 0.5 does sound better. I agree with TLS Guy's assessment that reproduced bass in home audio should sound non-resonant.

I don't know the total system Q for the bass module of the Phil3, but I would bet the mortgage it's close to 0.5.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I found some online graphics that illustrate the relationship between Q and bass resonance. The first graph below shows several frequency vs. SPL curves of one woofer in various cabinet designs with different Q values. Below that are several graphs of impulse response (time vs. SPL after a single brief impulse). They show increasing Q values lead to greater bass resonance or ringing that result in a 'boom box' sound. Note that Q = 0.5 has the shortest impulse response and the least resonance – the woofer cone stops moving faster than at higher Q values. Often this is spoken of as "fast bass".

1550663170653.png


1550663206453.png
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I found some online graphics that illustrate the relationship between Q and bass resonance. The first graph below shows several frequency vs. SPL of one woofer in cabinet designs with different Q values. Below that are several graphs of impulse response (time vs. SPL after a single brief impulse). They show increasing Q values lead to greater bass resonance or ringing that result in a 'boom box' sound. Note that Q = 0.5 has the shortest impulse response and the least resonance – the woofer cone stops moving faster than at higher Q values. Often this is spoken of as "fast bass".

View attachment 28327

View attachment 28328
I will reply to the OPs question here.

If total Q (Qtc) is 0.5 or less then the system is critically damped and convention accepts that definition. The problem is that there is a trade off between low Q and bass extension.

Now the Phil 3s are a hybrid system that uses a TL and exits into a tuned cavity. This is done to preserve bass output in a smaller cabinet.

However you can see that the speakers are not critically damped by the impedance curve.

Actual and measured.



Simulated.



Simulated frequency response.



Dennis wisely does not publish measured responses below 200 HZ. I say wisely, otherwise he would be endlessly replying to questions about validity given the means at his disposal. Note that the simulated response rolls off fourth order.

So now lets look at actual measured data from critically damped TLs, that do not exit into a tuned cavity.

Here the measured impedance of my center line.

This is the measured response of that line.



Note that there is only one peak of impedance and that roll off is second order. This is evidence of critical damping. The impulse curve which is very good, is the complete system including active BSC and the Eq in the crossovers to deal with what are not easy coaxial drivers to work with.

This is the impedance curve of the shorter line of the dual TLs.

This is the impedance curve of the longer lines. Both these illustrations are measured. As you can see there is just one peak of impedance.

This is the total system measured response, with both lines, active BSC and all crossovers. You can see that with room gain in their current position response is extended to 20 Hz. I can't measure lower than that, but roll off will be second order given the impedance curves.

Again for a total system the impulse curve shows a highly damped system.

The problem is that building a system like this takes up a lot of space and you end up with very large speakers. But Oh, is it worth it? The answer a resounding yes.

I'm going to post a YouTube of the Bach
Prelude and Fugue in D major, BWV 532
It is played on the magnificent Fritz Noak organ in the Lutheran church is Christ the King in Houston Texas. This has become known as the "Bach Organ" The work is impeccably played by Monica Czausz. This is how Bach should be played.

Although on YouTube the recording and sound is excellent and among the best organ recording technically that I'm aware of. Now i really highlights the benefit of a critically damped system. The detail and realism produced via critically damped speakers and this with a Q of 0.7 is blindingly obvious. The tight bass detail of the Noak instrument is perfectly preserved. It really sounds as if you are there. I'm familiar with the work of the New England organ builder Fritz Noak as we have a fine instrument of his in the chapel of the college of St. Benedict, St Cloud MN.

Here is the video.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Fabulous, @TLS Guy . Again, my thanks. That's a lot to chew on as I play with not so basic equations (to me). ;)

And the Bach performance was great!

This is going to be a fun path to walk.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I’ve read the speaker design books
Which ones? I've got one that threw me on page 3 with addition. :rolleyes:

If you have Ray Alden's book, Speaker Building 201
That very one ...

In general, the larger the sealed cabinet, the lower the Q.
Is it the opposite for ported? I'm pretty sure an inbox measurement showed me that increasing cab size raised the Q on a ported sub. And the nomenclature of Q(ts) and Q(tc)?
 
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