Say goodbye to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

[Francious70]

The question burning my mind is:

Clint, what do you mean when you say "Blu-Ray disc's have no cartridge"??

Paul

 

[Duffinator]

The question burning my mind is:

Clint, what do you mean when you say "Blu-Ray disc's have no cartridge"??

Paul

The original BD DVD's were in a cartridge, similar to a 3.5" floppy to protect them. They now look like a regular DVD.

 

[Catdaddy]

The blu-ray mechanism for embedding (writing/reading) information onto/from DVDs is different from how standard DVDs, and mostly HD-DVD- which is a slight deviation only from DVDs now. With blu-ray the digital information is coded very close to the surface of the disc (1 mm vs the 6mm of DVDs and HD-DVDs) and because of that, until recently, it was protected by a case so that the disc would not become unreadable because of the information getting damaged.

Someone has developed a kind of protective coating for discs that apparently make it much moreso unsratchable/undamageable. They say enough that even scratching it vigorously with a brillo pad the information remains protected.

Because of that new coating the need for the protective casing around the disc is gone, and now blu-ray DVDs will look similar to other discs (without the casing that it used to have.)

 

[Catdaddy]

I for one am hoping both mediums survive.

Nothing like competition between the two to drive prices down. It shouldnt cost anymore to makes these new DVDs once the initial refabs of the factories are done and im thinking that the markups for early adopters will be much less if there is a format war going on, then if there was a standard.

 

[goodman]

The Future's So Bright

The wife and I were in LV this week, so we stopped in at the Sony store to see what was new (actually three stops for me and two for her). If you ask about 1080p, they will take you in the back and demo the new SXRD front and rear projectors, feeding them with Discovery HD and HD Net off of satellite. Very nice. Then, if you ask politely, they will show you clips from Bewitched, Spiderman II and Stealth recorded on Blu Ray. Sure, your 480p player looks really good on your 1080i display, and the sound is imposing, if a little overblown, and harsh-sounding when you listen critically to the musical score. But, it's no match for Blu Ray. No artifacts. High contrast. High resolution. Just beautiful. The audio was equally impressive, in a very subtle way. Very clear, with no harshness or boom boom boom. Can you imagine what it will be like to experience a concert in your home with this level of audio and video quality? I can hardly wait for the hardware and the software to arrive.

 

[korgoth]

6 mm deep? how does that work.. dvd's are only 1 mm deep.

 

[Catdaddy]

My bad, its actually .1 mm and .6 mm, with the actual density of the disc being 1.2 mm. I typed that post from memory and inadvertantly, and erroneously, left out the decimal .

So the HD-DVD and standard DVDs have the information towards the middle of the disc while the blu-ray has it muchmoreso towards the surface.

 

[Cygnus]

Geez....and I was thinking about buying a DVD player reslly soon and a bunch of DVD's to boot...I guess I'll just have to wait for the new formats so that i'm not "out of date", though...

 

[Rob Babcock]

Geez....and I was thinking about buying a DVD player reslly soon and a bunch of DVD's to boot...I guess I'll just have to wait for the new formats so that i'm not "out of date", though...

I wouldn't worry about that, Cygnus. All of the new HD formats on the horizon promise compatibility with the old DVD standard. I expect you'll be able to watch them for years to come.

Besides, when will we really see them? Next year? The year after? The "drop dead" date for regular analog TV is supposed to be next summer, but not one expert I've heard thinks there's any chance it'll happen.

Lifes short. Buy a good but inexpensive player and enjoy the tens of thousands of high quality movies right now! Worry about new formats later. After all, we could get hit by a bus tomorrow!

 

[Duffinator]

Toshiba to use Microsoft Software

And the plot gets a bit thicker. Could this be the big score HD DVD was looking for? An article in the WSJ stated that Toshiba machines will use Windows CE on their HD DVD players but not the initial units.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050627/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_microsoft_toshiba;_ylt=AqZM_.TYylVqtZYPKC76daNj24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[Jedi2016]

Too little, too late, I think. The general consumer isn't going to want a computer in his entertainment center, he's going to want a DVD player. I'm pretty sure my Sony 575 doesn't have an operating system. And I don't think it's needed.. I mean, do you really need Windows to operate "Play", "FF", "Eject", "Pause", etc? Please.

Microsoft should have known which side to back.. their world is the PC world, and the PC world, as I understand it, is firmly behind Blu-Ray, largely because of it's increased storage capacity, which is far more important for PC users than production cost. I see this as nothing more than an attack by Microsoft against it's main competition in the consumer-electronics market. An attack that will probably fail. All the backing in the world can't change the fact that Blu-Ray is still superior technology.

 

[Duffinator]

All the backing in the world can't change the fact that Blu-Ray is still superior technology.

Just like a Sony Beta-max video player.

 

[Jedi2016]

Just like a Sony Beta-max video player.

From what I've read, that's somewhat of a misconception. While Betamax was "superior" to VHS in terms of picture quality, the difference was barely noticable, if at all, on a standard television. Betamax was also lacking decent audio for it's first few years (until the later release of Betamax Hi-Fi, which I think was just before VHS came out).

What killed Betamax was it's size. At the time that VHS came out, Betamax tapes could only hold one hour of video, where VHS could hold two (pre-EP/SLP). It gave the opportunity for Hollywood to release films on tape (which I think they were reluctant to do on two Betamax tapes). And for all the people who bought VCRs, they could tape movies off of TV without having to A) spend more money on more tapes, and B) have to switch tapes in mid-film.

Betamax eventually released longer tapes with two-hour capability, but by the time they did, it was too little, too late. VHS was firmly established, and the Betamax format was effectively dead.

The other big problem plaguing Betamax was that there was only one brand of player: Sony. For whatever reason, they had the damndest time getting other manufacturers on board to make Betamax VCRs.

They don't have those problems this time. Space is not an issue, since they have more than their competition this time around. Manufacturer support is also taken care of, since they've got companies like Mitsu****a supporting Blu-Ray. I don't have the whole list handy, but they've got a LOT more support this time around.

The only thing HD-DVD currently has going for it is the startup costs. But most of those costs will never make it's way to the consumer, so will pretty much be a non-issue for Joe Consumer who goes to buy a movie, as they'll be comparably priced.

And even if HD-DVDs are cheaper to manufacture, at what point is that no longer an issue? What happens if, say, Batman Begins comes out on two-disc HD-DVD, but WB later finds out they can fit the film plus extras on only one Blu-Ray disc? Suddenly it's Blu-Ray that's cheaper (since it's practically impossible for per-disc costs of Blu-Ray to be double that of HD-DVD).

That's my take on it, anyway. Most of it seems common sense to me.. I really can't imagine someone honestly believing that HD-DVD is superior in any concievable way.

 

[Duffinator]

That's my take on it, anyway. Most of it seems common sense to me.. I really can't imagine someone honestly believing that HD-DVD is superior in any concievable way.

Do you really think that matters? Really? I don't remember that much about the VHS Betamax war but one point you forgot to mention was COST. VHS was cheaper and contributed to its win. And size? The first VCR my family owned was a top loading Panasonic that was huge and weighed maybe 30+ pounds. I hadn't heard the size argument before. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of lesser technologies beating out better technologies due to COST.

I'm no techie but besides the larger storage capacity on BD DVD what technology is going to be noticeable to the consumer? If I'm watching either format at 1080P will I be able to tell which is which??? Beyond early adoptors will the average consumer care? The PC is another matter.

And who cares if HD DVD uses two discs and BD DVD uses one? Does it matter now? Lots of movies have the extras on a seperate disc, it doesn't bother me any. Many of the early DVD's were double sided but you rarely see them now. Why is that? COST It's cheaper to use two single sided DVD's verses one double sided one. And it could be that two HD disc are cheaper than one BD disc.

On the support side both formats have plenty of support while I do think BD has the edge there I don't think it's by a lot. What really matters here is the movie studios. They have the content and the motivation for tight DRM. I believe the movie studios and COST will be the deciding factors when all is said and done. I just don't see the superior technology by itself winning the battle. Of course we will all win if the two sides can come to an agreement and just one format arrives at your favorite consumer electronics store.

I agree BD is the better technology and I hope it wins. But I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Duffinator - I gotta say that cost is NOT an issue - profits are the only thing that matters. If it costs twice as much, but you earn 40% more net profit due to volume, then which do you use.

ALWAYS: The one that gives you the most profit.

With BD being in PS3, and a million+ units going into people's homes the first year of release, the early adopters of BD will be every single gaming kid on the face of the earth. Really, it's going to be in so many homes it will blow about every other new technology out of the water. HD-DVD just doesn't have that level of market penetration available to it, which will enormously impact its muscle power to pull in movie studios for production runs.

"Well, do we make product for the 100,000 HD-DVD players or do we make product for the 2,000,000 BD players?"

Since PS3 will be sold at a hardware loss, which they shoot to recoup in software sales, it is likely you will be able to purchase a BD combined with the PS3 for under $500.00 which is far less than most stand alone players will run in either format.

I don't know if I will get BD or HD-DVD - but you better believe I will be getting a PS3.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I haven't viewed either format, but the early reports from the tech writers is that image-wise, Blu-Ray leaves HD-DVD for dead. Unlike the old Beta vs VHS thing, it's reportedly not even close. Given the storage limitations with HD-DVD, the compression artifacts are supposedly pretty bad. Unless I'm getting bad intel, no one will tolerate HD-DVD if they ever A/B it against Blu-Ray.

Take this with a grain of salt as it's not my own experience, but it's what I've read.

 

[Jedi2016]

Do you really think that matters? Really? I don't remember that much about the VHS Betamax war but one point you forgot to mention was COST. VHS was cheaper and contributed to its win. And size? The first VCR my family owned was a top loading Panasonic that was huge and weighed maybe 30+ pounds. I hadn't heard the size argument before. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of lesser technologies beating out better technologies due to COST.

By "size", I was referring to storage capacity.. hehe. The same way that a DVD9 is "bigger" than a DVD5, even though they're physically the exact same size.

Price worked out in a similar way.. I think (I'm not sure, though) that the tapes themselves were pretty close in price. The difference being that, because Betamax tapes didn't hold as much, you had to buy more of them.

Price was a factor in the players, though, because Sony had little or no hardware support for the format, where there were plenty of different models of VHS players/recorders, which allowed the price to come down much faster.

Rob, do you have any links for that image-comparison analysis? I don't find it hard to believe, myself. If you put the same movie on both discs, and compress each one to fill the disc entirely, then the BD version will be more than half-again as large, which is a BIG deal when it comes to compression. I work with video quite a bit, and I hate compression artifacts with a passion. I'm glad that my current low-end TV doesn't allow me to see them, because I know I have a few poorly-compressed DVDs on my rack. (Statistically, I have to.. hehe. It's a big rack. )

That reminds me, I have to go through and figure out which movies I'll need to replace next-gen once I upgrade to HD. Not all of them, thankfully.. that'd be several thousand dollars.. hehe.

 

[Duffinator]

ALWAYS: The one that gives you the most profit.

Which is almost always the one with the lowest cost.

I'll believe there's a difference in picture quality when I see it myself. An HD disc will easily fit a movie without going crazy on the compression. They may have to use a second disc for extras but I don't see the video compression being very different between the two.

Like I said, I hope BD wins out but just because it's a better technology doesn't mean it will automatically win. Let's hope there's a unified format for Christmas because I wan't my HD quality DVD!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It's going to boil down to how Joe Consumer deals with the new technology, and if he can play the new formats in his $39 Wally World dvd player. The market still isn't ready for full blown 1080i when it hits the streets in '07. Consumers will need to rent cable boxes to decipher an HD to SD signal because their 27" consoles work fine. They are going to kick and scream about paying an extra $5 a month to rent this new cable box when their current sets are "cable ready."

We here at Audioholics are all way ahead of the curve. Only a few marketing execs understand the demand aspect of the new technology. No one disagrees that the new standard will be beneficial to everyone, but it's the cost to the consumer that plagues the system. Profits aren't made if consumers don't buy. An earlier post said profits are more important than cost. Bose took it one step further, and ran away with market share. It's a marketing game.

Hey, if it was up to me, I'd put more R&D into secure digital cards. Non moving parts, user friendly, and oh so small. It's the best thing to happen to the photo industry.

 

[REWJR]

HD-DVD 45GB triple layer it's over