Salk SoundScape 8

[Irvrobinson]

Check soundstage's anechoic chamber measurements for deviation from linearity. The salon2s are great measuring speakers, but they're not perfect.

Why is it the case? I dunno. the tweeter probably can't handle as much heat?

No, they're not perfect. Actually the old Dunlavy VIs (I was considering the Vs years ago) measured better, at least according to John Atkinson's tests. I wasn't trying to defend the Revels. As I've said before, I didn't design them, I just bought them.

I'm still not seeing how the deviations from linearity tell you anything about power handling.

 

[walter duque]

No, they're not perfect. Actually the old Dunlavy VIs (I was considering the Vs years ago) measured better, at least according to John Atkinson's tests. I wasn't trying to defend the Revels. As I've said before, I didn't design them, I just bought them.

I'm still not seeing how the deviations from linearity tell you anything about power handling.

I've listened to the Revels bevore, I would just like to ask you how much power can they handle. It has to be a lot, because my rear surrounds take 500 watts no problem.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I've listened to the Revels bevore, I would just like to ask you how much power can they handle. It has to be a lot, because my rear surrounds take 500 watts no problem.

I use 4x300w/ch to power them (the woofers are rolled off below 80Hz at 6db/octave, the mids/highs run full-range) and now I'm pretty happy with how effortless they are at realistic volumes. How much more they'd handle, or whether I'm already on the hairy edge, I have no idea.

The best part of the Revel is the tweeter; it's amazing at realistic volume levels. I've never heard the RAAL, but considering how realistic the Revel's highs sound I'm wondering how much better the RAAL could be. I've never heard the two together; I'm waiting to hear what ADTG says. He will be, perhaps, the first person in the universe to own both...

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm still not seeing how the deviations from linearity tell you anything about power handling.

How not? It's a power compression test.........that's exactly how we hear power handling. Our ears are much more sensitive to linear distortion than non linear distortion, especially between 1-6khz

He will be, perhaps, the first person in the universe to own both...

No, I think someone sold their Gem2s for a pair of Vapor Audio Cirrus, which uses the 70-20XR

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think he's building any crossovers for Salk.

If he was doing that, he'd get sick of eyerolling at all the $$$ Duelend capacitors, Mills resistors, etc that go into people's custom Salk speakers

I thought Dennis built the XO for the SS8?

 

[Swerd]

I thought Dennis built the XO for the SS8?

Dennis designed the SS8 crossover and built a prototype for real world testing. Someone in Jim's shop builds the production crossovers.

Dennis designs and builds each of the Philharmonic Audio crossovers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Dennis designs and builds each of the Philharmonic Audio crossovers.

Good to know.

 

[Nuance AH]

So you guys will be comparing which speakers again?

I must have missed this. Here is the speaker list:

Vapor Audio Joule's
Philharmonic 2's
Salk SoundScape 10's
Salk HT2-TL w/LCY tweeter
Ascend Tower's with RAAL tweeter
PSB Image T55's
Salk SongTower RT's w/LCY tweeter

And here is the front end electronics quote from TJHUB's post in the GTG thread at AVS Forum:

My gear list:

Source: Logitech Touch
My Touch is running the SoundCheck TT3.0 mods with the volume lock activated (very important, and a long story). The Touch is fed via wired ethernet cable from a server computer in my basement. The server computer is set to do all of the FLAC decoding and streams PCM to the Touch. The Touch is also powered by a DIY power supply that almost made me flip out the first time I heard it. The performance is FAR better than just using an off the shelf linear power supply.

DAC: Eastern Electric MiniMax Plus
The DAC is completely stock at the moment, and will likely stay that way. I am using a Psvane 12AU7 tube though. I have some opamps I've rolled, but I'm very happy with the sound as-is.

Preamp: Rogue Audio Perseus
The preamp is 100% stock including the tubes. Since its arrival in my setup, I have been completely satisfied with it's performance. It basically just disappears completely with the tubes providing a more 3D and layered sound stage. For the record, there is no traditional warm or tube sound allowed in my house. I look to get the sound as realistic as possible.

Amps: Odyssey Audio Stratos Extreme SE Monoblocks
These monos have the "Extreme SE" upgrades which are dual transformers, and upgraded wire/components inside. It is my understanding that they output a little over 200wrms into 8ohms, and approximately 360wrms into 4ohms.

Cables: Don't kid yourself, they matter!
For those that care... I have a Black Cat SilverStar 75 digital coax between the Touch and my DAC. I am in the process of trying to decide between the Sweet Spot Reveal IC's and Morrow MA2 IC's. Both sound fantastic, but offer slightly different presentations. Either sets sound absolutely wonderful, so I'm having a difficult time picking a "winner." I'm running a DIY pair of PCOCC speaker cables that I think are the best I've heard. I purchased them pre-made with a loose Litz braid for $60.00 shipped.

Of course my speakers are Salk HT2-TL's with the older LCY ribbon tweeter. I don't think I've found their limits yet, but I don't think I'll be trying to anymore either. I've loved them since day one, and I've heard no other speaker I'd rather have. I do have an interest in possibly getting some Magnepan's in the future.

I do run a pair of EQ'd DIY 18" TC Sounds LMS-Ultra's for both music and HT. I hope to be able to show their performance for music at the GTG, time permitting. I think they are absolutely spectacular, and I can't live without them for my room. Of course they will likely be out of the room for the GTG to allow every speaker to display its full performance. I'm not worried about my HT2-TL's as they easily shake the floor with their bass output.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Check soundstage's anechoic chamber measurements for deviation from linearity. The salon2s are great measuring speakers, but they're not perfect.

Why is it the case? I dunno. the tweeter probably can't handle as much heat?

I finally got around to searching for this review. I'm still not seeing what you're seeing. All of the graphs I see are for measurements in the 85-90db range, and I can't believe that's enough to test the power handling of the tweeter. Or if it is, and what I'm hearing at higher volumes is compression effects, all I can say is that compression effects sound damned good.

I would also like to thank you for the review pointer and the linked measurements. I hadn't seen them before, and the measurements are extremely interesting. The THD measurements, especially, may give me an indicator to why the Salon 2 sounds so much cleaner with an 80Hz-6db/oct high-pass filter, because I'm guessing the D18+ has substantially lower distortion below 80Hz than the Salon 2 does, and rolling off the Salon 2 woofer response probably decreases THD in the important 40Hz-150Hz range.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Vapor Audio Joule's
Philharmonic 2's
Salk SoundScape 10's
Salk HT2-TL w/LCY tweeter
Ascend Tower's with RAAL tweeter
PSB Image T55's
Salk SongTower RT's w/LCY tweeter

Should be quite interesting. I believe many of us will like to know the results.

 

[GranteedEV]

I finally got around to searching for this review. I'm still not seeing what you're seeing. All of the graphs I see are for measurements in the 85-90db range, and I can't believe that's enough to test the power handling of the tweeter.

deviation from linearity, is a measurement which measures the 70db @ 2m response.

Next it measures the 90db @ 2m response and highlights the difference. As you can see:

It is not compressing at 90db. Many speakers will bow out at this drive level. since the Salon 2 can handle a 90db sweep, it was measured again at 95db:

You can see the tweeter's thermal limits starting to surface. Now you won't likely have a 95db @ 6khz and even then 2db is an acceptable dip. For reference that's about 101db @ 1m and about 92.5db @ 3m which is pretty damn loud for treble which mostly consists of light harmonics.

I was simply pointing out that in comparision, the tweeter on the PSB Synchrony:

Shows more composure, looking almost identical at 95db as it does at 70db.

You can also see that its woofers and mids show less composure, and are more likely to be taxed by audio content (95db @ 500hz is a lot more likely than @ 5khz)

Or if it is, and what I'm hearing at higher volumes is compression effects, all I can say is that compression effects sound damned good.

That's not heavy compression, and it's at very high frequencies. I doubt you tax your tweeter that much.

The THD measurements, especially, may give me an indicator to why the Salon 2 sounds so much cleaner with an 80Hz-6db/oct high-pass filter, because I'm guessing the D18+ has substantially lower distortion below 80Hz than the Salon 2 does, and rolling off the Salon 2 woofer response probably decreases THD in the important 40Hz-150Hz range.

Not likely.

In the bass, non linear distortion (THD) only really adds some minor richness to the sound, even at 30% THD we don't recognize it as such.

I'm pretty sure your cleaness is all about the linear distortion (frequency response) in the room (below the shroeder frequency).

I'm sure having a lot more wattage on tap doesn't hurt.

 

[DS-21]

No, they're not perfect. Actually the old Dunlavy VIs (I was considering the Vs years ago) measured better, at least according to John Atkinson's tests.

Did you ever own those?

Fantastic sounding speakers, with the right head-vise...

Seriously, I've never, ever heard better-sounding headphones! Portability sucks, though.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Did you ever own those?

Fantastic sounding speakers, with the right head-vise...

Seriously, I've never, ever heard better-sounding headphones! Portability sucks, though.

I've never heard the VI, only the V, which I spent hours listening to. Awesome speakers in need of a better tweeter, so I thought at the time. Huge, pricey, world-class sealed-system bass, superbly flat frequency response (better than the Salon 2 in that regard).

 

[nemir]

I must have missed this. Here is the speaker list:

Vapor Audio Joule's
Philharmonic 2's
Salk SoundScape 10's
Salk HT2-TL w/LCY tweeter
Ascend Tower's with RAAL tweeter
PSB Image T55's
Salk SongTower RT's w/LCY tweeter

After carefully reading every post in this thread, I so want to hear someone's revel salon2s in this list.

ACTD, you sure you can't make it?



I do have another question now, though. Looking at the soundscapes as an example; they come in three different types, and different price ranges. Seems to me that the primary difference between them is that the bigger, more expensive speakers have same tweeter and mid-range, but more bass. Why would someone choose to spend extra money on the pair of speakers with more bass if they already own an amazing pair of subs that they can crossover to?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

After carefully reading every post in this thread, I so want to hear someone's revel salon2s in this list.

ACTD, you sure you can't make it?



I do have another question now, though. Looking at the soundscapes as an example; they come in three different types, and different price ranges. Seems to me that the primary difference between them is that the bigger, more expensive speakers have same tweeter and mid-range, but more bass. Why would someone choose to spend extra money on the pair of speakers with more bass if they already own an amazing pair of subs that they can crossover to?

For aesthetics, statement, or those who don't care for subwoofers. Some believe in 2.0 Pure Direct.

 

[GranteedEV]

Why would someone choose to spend extra money on the pair of speakers with more bass if they already own an amazing pair of subs that they can crossover to?

Getting crossover to a sub right can sometimes be screwed up...many 2ch people prefer no sub at all even if it gives worse bass quality.

Either way, those bass drivers handle 300hz on down. So output from 600hz to 300hz may not be the same. Subs don't cover that range.

The SS10 and 12s don't quite have the same tweeter as the SS8 by the way. Even though the driver is the same the baffle construction is different, which may affect absolute performance with respect to diffraction effects.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Why would someone choose to spend extra money on the pair of speakers with more bass if they already own an amazing pair of subs that they can crossover to?

If you run your mains full-range and they roll off significantly higher than the subs (like, say, 50Hz) you'll have an overall response bump above the mains roll-off. I think it makes the system sound muddy when you turn up the sub enough to get the low-bass right.

If you run your mains with a high-pass filter many people find 80-100Hz to be a good knee frequency for a smooth response curve. A 6db/octave high-pass filter at 80Hz means that your mains must still be quite powerful in the 40-60Hz range.

As someone once said, the speakers most likely to blend with subwoofers the best are those that need them the least.

 

[nemir]

If you run your mains full-range and they roll off significantly higher than the subs (like, say, 50Hz) you'll have an overall response bump above the mains roll-off. I think it makes the system sound muddy when you turn up the sub enough to get the low-bass right.

If you run your mains with a high-pass filter many people find 80-100Hz to be a good knee frequency for a smooth response curve. A 6db/octave high-pass filter at 80Hz means that your mains must still be quite powerful in the 40-60Hz range.

As someone once said, the speakers most likely to blend with subwoofers the best are those that need them the least.

THanks for the great response Irv. Now I not only understand better what is going on between the sub and the main speakers, I understand that I really have a heck of a lot to learn about how to tailor the system I end up going with.

Fun!

 

[Nuance AH]

Getting crossover to a sub right can sometimes be screwed up...many 2ch people prefer no sub at all even if it gives worse bass quality.

Either way, those bass drivers handle 300hz on down. So output from 600hz to 300hz may not be the same. Subs don't cover that range.

The SS10 and 12s don't quite have the same tweeter as the SS8 by the way. Even though the driver is the same the baffle construction is different, which may affect absolute performance with respect to diffraction effects.

This is exactly right.

By the way, JTR and Seaton Sound will now be represented at the GTG on Saturday. The more the merrier.

 

[GranteedEV]

This is exactly right.

By the way, JTR and Seaton Sound will now be represented at the GTG on Saturday. The more the merrier.

Do be sure to level match... no point cranking those speakers up just to show they can go to eleven. Though cranking all represented speakers up to compare is certainly a worthy goal.

Either way, you guys are officially having like... the ultimate GTG.