Rythmik or SVS?

[herbu]

Unless your room is extreme with treatments and bass traps, his room has much more in common with yours and mine than an anechoic chamber does.

That makes sense. I never thought of it that way. So if you assume your room will likely have built-in low bass gain, especially if you put your sub(s) in a corner, some low roll off in the sub(s) response could actually result in a flatter response in your room. Interesting point.

 

[KEW]

Ahh! I just noticed this graph of "Room Gain Control Settings" for the SB13-Ultra!
SB13-Ultra

That is the type of flexibility I am talking about.


Again, note that the lessor SB12-NSD is EQ'ed to stay flat lower than any settings the Ultra will allow! It is interesting that SVS is adding the cost for technology to do this on their lower model and not considering it useful on their flagship sealed sub!
SB12-NSD

And here is the JLAudio E112 which I could not tame the bass on in my room!
JL Audio E112 (black curve, red is for E110)

You can see why I would be reluctant to recommend the SB12-NSD to anyone wanting to use it for music. They are very likely to have the same issue I did with the E112s - not being able to level out the bass with the mid-highs after room gain.

 

[Steve81]

Seems like that would be a tough nut to crack for most of us. Would need to measure a flat source in your room, then find a sub/speaker whose anechoic response is the inverse?...I can see how finding a sub whose response is the inverse of your selected room and position would be best... but could you realistically do that?

In my case, I did pretty much what you describe. I had a flat emitter (the PB13), and measured the in room response sans any EQ with Omnimic. I was able to get a much better in room response with the PB13's built in controls (Room Comp, PEQ) than what Audyssey ever delivered on its own. Later down the line, I did some compression sweeps and found that the top end response (50Hz+) would droop a bit at higher output levels, which is a bit reason why I opted to go in a different direction.

As far as how realistic it is to follow that path, you really just need to be able to take measurements. Close miking a sub ala Jman gives you a good idea of what its anechoic response looks like. Combined with the response at the MLP, you can get an idea of what the room does to your response, and work from there.

 

[PENG]

In my case, I did pretty much what you describe. I had a flat emitter (the PB13), and measured the in room response sans any EQ with Omnimic. I was able to get a much better in room response with the PB13's built in controls (Room Comp, PEQ) than what Audyssey ever delivered on its own.

Did you have XT at the time? I had similar experience with the AV7005 that has the XT only. The AV8801's XT32/SubEQ HT was able to dial the PB13 in to near perfection. I did touch it up with just one adjustment with the sub's PEQ to reduce a dip at 50 Hz by about 2 dB but I am not even sure if I should have left that alone. After making that adjustment if I ran Audyssey again it would bring that dip back and I would have to re-apply the PEQ manually.

 

[Steve81]

Did you have XT at the time? I had similar experience with the AV7005 that has the XT only.

Yes, just XT, not XT32 w/ SubEQ.

 

[3db]

Which "Bass Extension" setting (on the amp panel of your Rythmik) do you use?


From Rythmik's quick guide:

I just looked at it. extension set to low, slope rolls off at 12db, crossover set to 250 Hz on sub but 80 on the AVR and phase set to 0

 

[KEW]

I just looked at it. extension set to low, slope rolls off at 12db, crossover set to 250 Hz on sub but 80 on the AVR and phase set to 0

For music, you should try medium or high and see how it compares (per Rythmik's recommendation). I don't know if they changed it, but used to be, YPAO did nothing to EQ bass.

 

[KEW]

Some more info on room gain:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/1261-room-gain.html

 

[KEW]

I wish I had read this earlier!
From Data-Bass here are Josh Ricci's comments on the PSA XS15se:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=105&mset=117

... with a gently sloping low end that corners at 30Hz and appears to enter a sealed systems natural 12dB/octave roll off below that point. It should be a good match with the boost often seen in the low bass once placed in room.

You can view the FR measured by Ricci at the above link. It shows a smooth curve with the FR down about 10dB at 20Hz!

 

[KenM10759]

Count me in as a new SVS SB1000 owner as of 10-13-15. Least money of Rythmik vs. SVS and all graphs, charts, and other empirical data aside, its the perfect fit for the space I have and suits my needs and wants to a "T".

Cash & carry from my local dealer, no UPS anticipation.

 

[3db]

For music, you should try medium or high and see how it compares (per Rythmik's recommendation). I don't know if they changed it, but used to be, YPAO did nothing to EQ bass.

I run Pure Direct for music letting my towers provide the bass. That way I'm hearing the speakers, not a corrected version of the speakers. Its my quirk I realize. I chose the sub's setting because its purpose was intended for Home Theater and I want the extension. Even in this setting, the sub's bass is actually very good.

 

[herbu]

I run Pure Direct for music letting my towers provide the bass. That way I'm hearing the speakers, not a corrected version of the speakers.

My thoughts exactly. I don't think there is any way I can do a better job, (even if I had all the measurement equipment in the world), mating my towers to the subs than Dennis did mating the drivers within the towers.

 

[KEW]

I run Pure Direct for music letting my towers provide the bass. That way I'm hearing the speakers, not a corrected version of the speakers. Its my quirk I realize. I chose the sub's setting because its purpose was intended for Home Theater and I want the extension. Even in this setting, the sub's bass is actually very good.

That explains everything! You are using the sub as an "HT only" sub! I did not realize that!
My point is that were you to listen to music on this system; using your sub as it is currently tuned, it should have way, way, too much deep bass in-room. If you tried listening to some of your favorite "bassy" music and the sub engaged, you would know exactly what I have been obsessing over! Change the extension to high and you will have a better experience (for music).
It is a safe bet that if you were to measure FR from the listening position, you are running at least 5dB (and likely closer to 10dB) hot down around 20Hz. However, unless you are listening to a movie with an emphasis on music, you will not mind (and probably will enjoy) the extra bass!
As much as I hate "bass bloat" when listening to music, for most movies, I turn up the subs 6dB... and sometimes more for a rowdy action film!
When listening to music you can tell the bass is too pronounced and resolution of upper bass is lost to the overblown lower bass. But for HT, if there is an explosion 25 ft away or if a dinosaur stomps, who is to say what the correct balance of bass is? For the explosion, you don't really want the real experience, but getting more than the recording engineer "intended" is not a bad thing as long as you are not breaking too much stuff in your home!

This guy ran his subs too hot despite repeated complaints from the neighbors!

 

[3db]

That explains everything! You are using the sub as an "HT only" sub! I did not realize that!
My point is that were you to listen to music on this system; using your sub as it is currently tuned, it should have way, way, too much deep bass in-room. If you tried listening to some of your favorite "bassy" music and the sub engaged, you would know exactly what I have been obsessing over! Change the extension to high and you will have a better experience (for music).
It is a safe bet that if you were to measure FR from the listening position, you are running at least 5dB (and likely closer to 10dB) hot down around 20Hz. However, unless you are listening to a movie with an emphasis on music, you will not mind (and probably will enjoy) the extra bass!
As much as I hate "bass bloat" when listening to music, for most movies, I turn up the subs 6dB... and sometimes more for a rowdy action film!
When listening to music you can tell the bass is too pronounced and resolution of upper bass is lost to the overblown lower bass. But for HT, if there is an explosion 25 ft away or if a dinosaur stomps, who is to say what the correct balance of bass is? For the explosion, you don't really want the real experience, but getting more than the recording engineer "intended" is not a bad thing as long as you are not breaking too much stuff in your home!

This guy ran his subs too hot despite repeated complaints from the neighbors!

I have listened to music with the sub and it does a good job even in this setting. The thing is, music, at least the genres I'm listening to, doesn't have much content down in the 20 Hz region. If you look back at my review, I noticed pitch changes in bass during movie soundtracks that I've not heard with the PSB. It really is an articulate sub.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Update: I finally decided on Rythmik. I called them to ask about the differences between F12 and F12G, and I'm glad I did - when I mentioned the size of my room, Brian (I think it was) said the 12's aren't sufficient for a room larger than 2200 cu.ft. He recommended the L22 or E15. I knew there was a B stock E15 on clearance for just over $1000, so I snatched it up. I figure there's no point in spending almost $1000 to get something that won't work in the space, when I can spend a bit more and get something that will work. (And Jman chose this sub over the SB13-Ultra – how can I go wrong?)


Now I just need to wait ... and figure out how I'm going to get 100 lbs up 3 flights of stairs....

 

[Steve81]

Now I just need to wait ... and figure out how I'm going to get 100 lbs up 3 flights of stairs....

A hand truck wouldn't be a bad way to go.

 

[3db]

Update: I finally decided on Rythmik. I called them to ask about the differences between F12 and F12G, and I'm glad I did - when I mentioned the size of my room, Brian (I think it was) said the 12's aren't sufficient for a room larger than 2200 cu.ft. He recommended the L22 or E15. I knew there was a B stock E15 on clearance for just over $1000, so I snatched it up. I figure there's no point in spending almost $1000 to get something that won't work in the space, when I can spend a bit more and get something that will work. (And Jman chose this sub over the SB13-Ultra – how can I go wrong?)


Now I just need to wait ... and figure out how I'm going to get 100 lbs up 3 flights of stairs....

Congrats

 

[KEW]

Now I just need to wait ... and figure out how I'm going to get 100 lbs up 3 flights of stairs....

One step at a time...

 

[3db]

One step at a time...

Two at a time will get you there twice as quick

 

[KEW]

Two at a time will get you there twice as quick

3 flights of stairs + 2 steps at a time + 100lbs!
Do you think I could get the ambulance guys to carry it to the top before we head for the hospital?