RXV 2500: the best way to get the sound of music in real space?

[listener-only]

Is the Yamaha RXV 2500 the best way to get the sound of music in real space?

I’m a long-time believer in using electronic trickery to simulate acoustic space, starting with di-pole screens, adding a Koss 4DS “echo-box” in the ‘70’s, graduating to “time delay” [and sonic holography] with a Carver C-4000, then a Yamaha DSP-1 with six channels [and lots of absurd effects --fun, but a little noisy with some functions. What kind of music needs phlanging, anyway?], and, finally, a Yamaha DSP A2070. [By the way, I’d be glad to sell any of this equipment, in boxes, at reasonable prices, if there are collectors out there.]

I’m now looking to upgrade, again, with the goal being simulating live music [in acoustic environments] from the recordings I own. I realize, I will almost certainly end up paying for lots of video/home-theatre -oriented wiring in any component I buy, which only my son will appreciate.

So the question is, does an RXV 2500 simulate more realistic acoustic environments than other electronics available? My DSP-1 offered 12 environments [along with four “video sound programs” which I never used, and fifteen interesting {once or twice} effects]; my DSP A2070 also has twelve music environments [with four more for “concert video” and seven home-theatre modes, again, useless to me.] A new RXV 2500 would cut me back to only eight environments [and, of course, even more unwanted video-theatre programs. Perhaps my son, who can stay awake watching movies on TV screens, will be grateful.]

I don’t need an upgrade in power from the A2070. [I use a powered subwoofer {A/D/S} and a power amp {Carver 1.5t} for the main channels.] My main reason for upgrading now is that my old [ancient, actually ~1970] Soundcraftsman equalizer is finally beyond repair, and Yamaha’s YPAO equalization appeals to me --especially having all six channels equalized. However, I’m afraid I’ll miss the wider selection of acoustic environments.

Background: I have probably over 1,000 stereo and a couple of hundred mono recordings, and I don’t buy many new recordings, these days. I listen mostly to blues, pre-nineties rock, post-fifties jazz, sub-Saharan and Caribbean music, chamber music, and opera. I use A/D/S L7e main speakers, four Pinnacle satellites, no center speaker, and a regrettably small [13’x 13’. A friend borrowed the dipole screens long ago.] listening room.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

What a great old eq - Soundcraftsman. If you have the cash and the time, I would wait for the new Yamaha's to come out this summer or fall. The new 4600 model would probably cater to your high end equipment better than the 2500. I absolutely love the flexibility and sound of my Denon 3805. Some guys who own the Yamaha's don't use the YPAO because it's not a perfect system. If you've been away from HT for several years, you'll be amazed at what these new mid to high end receivers can do. The on screen displays are so helpful. If you are into acoustic enviroments, then the Yamaha is the way to go. I personally don't use the DSP modes, favoring the DPLIIx and DTS instead. The ones I find most interesting are the 5/7 channel stereo and jazz club.

 

[WooHoo]

Is the Yamaha RXV 2500 the best way to get the sound of music in real space?

I thought in the '70's it was Panama Red and Koss headphones!!

 

[listener-only]

Yep, you remember right, WooHoo. Pro-4 AAA's, preferrably matched up with a Grado. But I can't remember the other part.

 

[xray]

Listener-only

You sound my vintage, listener-only. In the 70" I had an Apt-Holman preamp, Dynaco 416 amp,an Onkyo FM only tuner, and Infinity QLS speakers with nine elements in each--not to mention a turntable of some sort, a pain in the neck. While listening to Mozart's Magic Flute finale, I looked up and the entire cast of singers were lined up 16' wide with the sound individually produced as if at a live production, something I'd never heard before or since--I later made the mistake of moving the speakers a little and the magic disappeared. But in the venacular of the day, it was a "rush."
The big problem in those days was the lack of a remote control for any eqipment so you spent your time chasing the preamp on the other side of the room. Still have the above stuff plus an Acoustic Research AR-1 that brought us acoustic suspension speakers. All I wanted was a remote and delay but now that I have them things don't sound as good.

 

[listener-only]

You sound my vintage, listener-only. In the 70" I had an Apt-Holman preamp, Dynaco 416 amp,an Onkyo FM only tuner, and Infinity QLS speakers with nine elements in each--not to mention a turntable of some sort, a pain in the neck. While listening to Mozart's Magic Flute finale, I looked up and the entire cast of singers were lined up 16' wide with the sound individually produced as if at a live production, something I'd never heard before or since--I later made the mistake of moving the speakers a little and the magic disappeared. But in the venacular of the day, it was a "rush."
The big problem in those days was the lack of a remote control for any eqipment so you spent your time chasing the preamp on the other side of the room. Still have the above stuff plus an Acoustic Research AR-1 that brought us acoustic suspension speakers. All I wanted was a remote and delay but now that I have them things don't sound as good.

X-ray – I had some of that old Dynaco and such for many years, and borrowed a friend’s AR-1’s and coveted 3a’s in the late sixties. Also wanted his AR turntable [Absence of cueing lever is even better than no remote {see below} --kept us from skipping and repeating tracks.] I still use an old Technics turntable, which I’d’ve to replace, somehow, if it went kaput. In my kitchen system I still use a heavy, old HK Citation Twelve, built from a kit and upgraded with MOSFET’s [not by me, I’m sorry to admit]; it sounds great and runs cool.
Unlike you, I don’t much regret old components' lack of remotes; I find remotes make me fiddle, when I mean to listen. On the other hand, I don’t seem to have the will-power to lock the remotes away in a drawer. On the third hand, they’re lost half the time, anyway.

One pundit has suggested that the solution to my query --the best way to get the sound of music in real space-- would be to sell all my equipment, save up for a ticket on Richard Branson’s first suborbital tourist flight, and bring an LP of an old Julie Andrews soundtrack with me to listen to. Some of WooHoo’s Panama Red and the LP would probably be a cheaper way. Who knows, maybe some of that would make your up-to-date, state-of-the-art, remote-controlled, delayed equipment sound as good as the old stuff did.

 

[listener-only]

What a great old eq - Soundcraftsman. If you have the cash and the time, I would wait for the new Yamaha's to come out this summer or fall. The new 4600 model would probably cater to your high end equipment better than the 2500. I absolutely love the flexibility and sound of my Denon 3805. Some guys who own the Yamaha's don't use the YPAO because it's not a perfect system. If you've been away from HT for several years, you'll be amazed at what these new mid to high end receivers can do. The on screen displays are so helpful. If you are into acoustic enviroments, then the Yamaha is the way to go. I personally don't use the DSP modes, favoring the DPLIIx and DTS instead. The ones I find most interesting are the 5/7 channel stereo and jazz club.

Buckeyefan – Thanks for the suggestions. For a while, Monday, I was afraid I had started the only thread that would never get a response.
Do you, like some audioholics, have advance knowledge of product introductions? I looked up the Yam. 4600 and was not too impressed with it’s improvements [at least in specs and concepts; I like the other colors.] over the 2500, at least as a component for listening to music. For approximately 90% more MSRP, you get similar specs, two more video modes, and two exotic connection jacks that must have some video purpose. [Little, whiny smiley-face, here]. I guess the I-link [whatever that is] may, someday, have an audio use, if I [1] buy new components [quite possible; which have I-link outputs?] and [2] someday start buying new recordings [harder to imagine].

On the other hand, I was encouraged that Yamaha has NOT continued the trend I’d noticed, by further REDUCING the number of acoustic environments offered. [12 in DSP-1; 12 in A2070; 8 in 2500; 8 in 4600.] Do you know that other products in Yam’s next generation [or any other manufacturer’s] will be aimed more at music listeners?
More video programs, for those of you who can stand to watch movies and sports on small or pale screens, seem to be the focus of all electronics engineers these days [Another little, whiny smiley-face, here].

Your warnings about YPAO eq worry me, but I’m not sure what better alternatives are available. Is the microphone the weakest link? Are seven bands not enough?] To get clearly better room-equalization, I could replace my broken Soundcraftsmen with three, third-octave stereo equalizers [Are these still made?]. I’d also probably need an SPL meter and to upgrade my old BSR spectrum analyzer, not to mention trust my ears to conjure the sound of anechoic chambers and concert halls I’ve never visited. At least I have a really good tape measure [Bosch DMB 5, running at 1.5V DC, LR 6; 1-to-4,960 mm @ <.5% TLD]. YPAO seems to have the right concept, with parametric equalization of each channel, but you can’t really audition it, effectively, in a store.

Do DPLIIx and DTS really work for music [n.i.c. music videos]? What sound do they aim for with 5/7 stereo? What jazz club?

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful response, even though I think that, if OSU moved to Xenia, Columbus would be the better for it.

 

[JoeE SP9]

The best way to get what you asked is go to a club where a live band is playing. Like you I have been at this quite a while. I tried all those gadgets in the past. I once owned a benchmark delay unit. In the last 5 years or so I've got away from all the gadgets while listening to straight music. I remodeled my listening room. This made more difference than any electronic device I have ever tried or heard in a demo. I will soon be replacing my old Lexicon CP1 processor with something else but the surround functions will only be used for movies and TV. I'm very happy the way music sounds with only 2 channels on my rig.

 

[rschleicher]

My understanding of the 5/7 ch. stereo mode is that it is 2 channels of signal (stereo), but with the left channel fed to the left-side front, surround, and, if present, back surround, and with the right channel fed to the right-side front, surround, and back-surround. So it more or less envelops you in the stereo signal. The intended use is for parties, where you want to have the sound be as similar as possible, wherever in the room you are standing. Now that I am thinking about it, I realize that I have no idea what they send to the center channel. Maybe it is a combination of the left and right stereo channels, or maybe they don't send anything to the center channel.

If you are interested in the source of the various "room environments" for Yamaha's DSP music modes, there is some description of this in the user manuals, which are available in .pdf form on Yamaha's web site - http://www.yamaha.com/yec/customer/manuals/man_av_rcvr.htm

For my mid-price RX-V750, the info on the room environments is very minimal. But, in the higher-end receiver manuals they go into more detail as to the jazz clubs used, the concert halls and churches, etc. for the various music DSP modes. (For example, mine only has one jazz club mode, which is from "The Bottom Line" in New York. But, the top-end RX-Z9 has jazz club modes for 4 or so specific clubs, concert hall modes from various cities in Europe and the US, etc.) For some they don't mention a specific venue name, just the city it is in, number of seats, and a few words about the shape/size of the room. You can also see what the various delay and loss parameters are for each mode.

 

[S.R. Johnson]

Do DPLIIx and DTS really work for music [n.i.c. music videos]? What sound do they aim for with 5/7 stereo? What jazz club?

For music with DPLII and DTS Neo:6, yes and no. sometimes the surround does sound great with two channel music and it sometimes sound artifical. but for the most part i do use it a lot. the 5/7 channel mode is for parties. I use it on sources where the surround does not sound good on. for example, i have some old transformers generation 1 tapes and they seem to be in mono, but 5 channel stereo works fine.