Russia - Ukraine

[Trell]

If you do not want war, especially by mistake, you have to make deal of some sort with the bear. Hopefully it will be a long term deal that will not necessitate the need for NATO. What I worry about is what comes after Putin.

The Europeans are responsible for getting into bed with Putin on energy in the first place. They gave him the leverage over their economies.

You’re not American? For surely you don’t believe that USA will not be part of any deal.

 

[SithZedi]

I had really hoped for this to be settled with the Minsk agreements in 2015 that did not include the US originally, I think. The US will have to be involved now because the Europeans are in a weak position and have no military wo the US.

I always thought that Chirac and Blair were on the right track in the late 90s to set up a Euro force independent of the US. If that had happened, and the Uk was still in the EU, I think Putin's calculations would be much different today.

Macron and Rutte had tried to restart the effort after Biden withdrew from Aftganistan in September but its always too little to late.

 

[SithZedi]

Well this is helpful by the media to reduce tensions. Paging, Hearst?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1489709213085491200

 

[highfigh]

Interesting opinion piece.

Opinion | Europe Thinks Putin Is Planning Something Even Worse Than War (Published 2022)

The threat of war could be more destructive than war itself.

www.nytimes.com

In light of the alliance that Putin and Xi just reaffirmed, the only thing worse would be a complete takeover and with China's takeover of Uganda's only international airport as well as their colonization through foreclosure in Africa, this crap needs to be nipped in the bud.

The good news-Putin can't live forever. With luck, he's already dying.

China to takeover Uganda's only international airport over loan default: Reports- Republic World

Another nation has fallen prey to what is popularly called China's 'debt trap' strategy. Uganda is likely to lose its Entebbe International Airport to the Communist country over its failure to pay back a loan that was ironically intended for its development. China’s Export-Import (EXIM) Bank...

www.republicworld.com

 

[SithZedi]

In light of the alliance that Putin and Xi just reaffirmed, the only thing worse would be a complete takeover and with China's takeover of Uganda's only international airport as well as their colonization through foreclosure in Africa, this crap needs to be nipped in the bud.

The good news-Putin can't live forever. With luck, he's already dying.

China to takeover Uganda's only international airport over loan default: Reports- Republic World

Another nation has fallen prey to what is popularly called China's 'debt trap' strategy. Uganda is likely to lose its Entebbe International Airport to the Communist country over its failure to pay back a loan that was ironically intended for its development. China’s Export-Import (EXIM) Bank...

www.republicworld.com

Yep, wouldn't it have been smarter to somehow contain Putin, make a deal, and get him on the West's side against China? Basically flip the Nixon deal with China in the early 70s?

 

[rnatalli]

To be a superpower and sustain war, one must have the economics to play the long game. China and Russia combined have a GDP of about $17T; less than half of NATO countries combined. California alone has an economy nearly twice the size of Russia's.

 

[SithZedi]

To be a superpower and sustain war, one must have the economics to play the long game. China and Russia combined have a GDP of about $17T; less than half of NATO countries combined. California alone has an economy nearly twice the size of Russia's.

That's a fair point. I would consider this though. What are the components of that GDP? Just picking one of many examples: How much manufacturing takes place in China vs. US/Europe. Where do most of the semiconductor chips that fuel the US and European economies come from? Technological advantage, the US and Europe can make the argument that we have superior technology. Let's assume that is a factual statement. Cyberhacking alone has and will successfully erode any advantage the US and Europe have there in both the short and long term.

 

[3db]

There are no free rides in nature when it comes to producing consumable energy. Everything has a cost. Wind farms are slaughtering birds in their 1000s on their migration routes, chemicals used to make solar cells are extremely toxic, coal fired plants cause acid rain which has killed most of the Scandanavian lakes, and hydro dams change the surrounding eco system. Pick your poison.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Yep, wouldn't it have been smarter to somehow contain Putin, make a deal, and get him on the West's side against China? Basically flip the Nixon deal with China in the early 70s?

What kind of deal would you envision?

 

[SithZedi]

What kind of deal would you envision?

Something along the lines of Minsk II agreement in 2015, the go from there.

 

[highfigh]

Yep, wouldn't it have been smarter to somehow contain Putin, make a deal, and get him on the West's side against China? Basically flip the Nixon deal with China in the early 70s?

I'm not sure there's any chance of getting him on the West's side against China- those two countries had very different leaders from the ones in power today and the US is basically impotent.

 

[highfigh]

There are no free rides in nature when it comes to producing consumable energy. Everything has a cost. Wind farms are slaughtering birds in their 1000s on their migration routes, chemicals used to make solar cells are extremely toxic, coal fired plants cause acid rain which has killed most of the Scandanavian lakes, and hydro dams change the surrounding eco system. Pick your poison.

Don't forget about the Mercury from coal-fired plants. That's the reason EVERY US state has a warning for Mercury WRT fish consumption.

So, natural gas, then?

 

[3db]

Don't forget about the Mercury from coal-fired plants. That's the reason EVERY US state has a warning for Mercury WRT fish consumption.

So, natural gas, then?

Fracking causes contamination of the near by water tables. Nothing is a free ride.

 

[SithZedi]

I'm not sure there's any chance of getting him on the West's side against China- those two countries had very different leaders from the ones in power today and the US is basically impotent.

Agree there. There was a window to do a deal like that after the Obama presidency, but Trump had his hands tied with respect to Russia. They play chess in those countries, the US plays checkers.....

 

[highfigh]

Fracking causes contamination of the near by water tables. Nothing is a free ride.

That's the reason they do it in remote areas. The problem is, they don't know exactly where the aquifers go or how far.

Never said anything was a free ride, but more people need to learn about energy- politicians like to tell us what we need and what they'll give us but one example, Ethanol, should NOT be in gasoline. It costs more to produce than the selling price, so the Government subsidizes its production and corn that could have been used to feed livestock is used, so that drives up the price of food. They should be using switch grass- it grows easily all over the US, requires no chemicals and it wouldn't affect the food supply. The Ethanol has lower energy density than gasoline and causes terrible damage to fuel systems. My friend's boat was made in 1989 and next to the fuel filler fitting, Carver installed a small plate with "Using fuel with Alcohol is dangerous".

The fuel economy loss from adding Ethanol means that for every pound of fuel used, the blended fuel will move a vehicle a shorter distance than the same amount of gasoline. The hydrocarbon emissions will be different, but the NOX content tends to be higher and that causes its own problems.

Like it or not, Diesel is more efficient than gasoline, but this is 'Murica, where we like our gasoline.

 

[highfigh]

Agree there. There was a window to do a deal like that after the Obama presidency, but Trump had his hands tied with respect to Russia. They play chess in those countries, the US plays checkers.....

The US plays Tic tac toe while the rest of the World plays a more difficult game.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Something along the lines of Minsk II agreement in 2015, the go from there.

I'm not so sure. Russia has been acting in bad faith all along, denying they have had forces deployed within Ukraine and pretending they are impartial in the whole affair. The Minsk protocol had Ukraine negotiating under duress and the decentralization measures look like a step in the eventual absorption of the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts into Russia, by stealth. I think it was doomed from the start.

Of course, when Russia's expresses concern over their own security, what remains unsaid is that Ukraine's security comes a distant second.

 

[SithZedi]

I believe you may be right. Russian bad faith, lack of European pressure and follow up to reassure the Ukrainians had a big part to play. I think Europe's approval of the Nord 2 pipeline was viewed as a huge "stab in the back" by the Ukrainians.

 

[rnatalli]

Fracking causes contamination of the near by water tables. Nothing is a free ride.

Fusion power. The only con of course is no one has yet gotten it to produce a positive gain.

 

[SithZedi]

The force is not strong with British Secretary of State Liz Truss.

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