Room treatment help

[loganschleich17]

Hi I have treated my room only a small bit. I’ve used 2 bass traps in my front corner and some panels to the right of the MLP. I’m looking for any suggestions on more treatment, or moving what I already have. I have a wife and I’ve been walking the thin line between pissing her off and what she is slowly accepting as far as panels and traps. Please give me your opinions as I value them greatly. FYI I have a diffuser on its way for the back wall.

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[ryanosaur]

Why are you focusing on room treatments? You've got a lot of reflective surfaces... and a cool cat tower, and a cat that looks like one of mine... but you should consider your placements, especially of your subs before just throwing up panels. You'r wife might not like that either... but fixing placement is free!

 

[TheWarrior]

Additionally, I would not recommend spending money on anything but thick curtains.

 

[ryanosaur]

Seldom are our rooms great from an acoustic perspective and we have to make it work for the love of our ears.

Those 2 panels on the left wall from LP are not going to help you. A: too small, B: they are nowhere near the first reflection points of either speaker. If anything they might do better behind your speakers. (no guarantees)

Curtains, yes. They might help a bit. Also artwork and nick-knacks on the wall. Don't go crazy, but break up the reflection points a bit. Give the Lady some cash and tell her to go antiquing!

MOVE YOUR SUBS! Those might be the two worst places in your room! I dig... you don't have a lot to work with, but depending on the open volume that those subs are exposed to, I would recommend putting one near the window/ end table... and the other maybe even behind your LP. If you haven't... do the Subwoofer crawl. Probably sometime when the lady isn't around. But you can learn a lot from that... about LF, your Subs, your Room Acoustics... and maybe find some places that will improve your SQ. Check out Crawling For Bass, here, and google search it for some other vids.

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

MOVE YOUR SUBS! Those might be the two worst places in your room! I dig... you don't have a lot to work with, but depending on the open volume that those subs are exposed to, I would recommend putting one near the window/ end table... and the other maybe even behind your LP. If you haven't... do the Subwoofer crawl. Probably sometime when the lady isn't around. But you can learn a lot from that... about LF, your Subs, your Room Acoustics... and maybe find some places that will improve your SQ. Check out Crawling For Bass, here, and google search it for some other vids.

If you don't mind, can you explain why those are the two worst places for bass in that room? I have a similar situation on one side where a few feet over is a 5' wide opening to the adjacent room and the stairs along the same wall where that opening is. Thanks.

 

[ryanosaur]

First, I'm not an expert. There are a lot of articles and info about multiple sub setup. I did say might, too. Its also possible that those are the best locations. Though the OP also chose to put some bass traps in his front left corner which is a tip that somethings not right.
LF is finicky, and works differently from your other speakers. For your LF, room volume and open area is at play; the soundwaves are omnidirectional: going anywhere and everywhere they can. Speakers are directional and their loudness is a function of your distance from them (assuming 90db efficiency at 1m: -6dB at 2, -12dB at 4... etc, you would be experiencing ~80dB sitting at ~10'away). That said... when considering sub placement, the rules of putting them next to your mains does not always work for several reasons.
Among them is the possibility of the speakers and subs working against each other. More likely is that the rooms natural acoustics are not being considered, and that by moving them around, you can find and excite different room modes which will in turn minimize standing waves or nulls and create a more even bass response.
I have a corner that not only amplifies the LF (premise behind corner loading), but makes it very muddy too. One day when I had to move my speaker while I was working on my system, the negative change in its bass performance was was highly noticeable! You will also find nulls in your room where the LF DIES.
By placing LF sources around the room, you can excite different room modes. There are different approaches to this, but in the end, the goal is to excite as many room modes as possible, thus minimizing nulls or standing waves, and creating more even sound.

My description might be a little clumsy, and as I learn more myself, I might even revise some of it.

But DO please research how LF works in a room and why its important to experiment with placement.
Here's one brief description of the Geddes approach. One from Audioholics. Lifewire. And many others if you look.
I am personally experimenting with non-symmetrical placements, one each on the side walls. I chose those locations after doing the crawl... they were neutral sounding spots. (I also found the corner problem and a dead spot, both of which I avoided!)

Hope this helps!

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

First, I'm not an expert. There are a lot of articles and info about multiple sub setup. I did say might, too. Its also possible that those are the best locations. Though the OP also chose to put some bass traps in his front left corner which is a tip that somethings not right.
LF is finicky, and works differently from your other speakers. For your LF, room volume and open area is at play; the soundwaves are omnidirectional: going anywhere and everywhere they can. Speakers are directional and their loudness is a function of your distance from them (assuming 90db efficiency at 1m: -6dB at 2, -12dB at 4... etc, you would be experiencing ~80dB sitting at ~10'away). That said... when considering sub placement, the rules of putting them next to your mains does not always work for several reasons.
Among them is the possibility of the speakers and subs working against each other. More likely is that the rooms natural acoustics are not being considered, and that by moving them around, you can find and excite different room modes which will in turn minimize standing waves or nulls and create a more even bass response.
I have a corner that not only amplifies the LF (premise behind corner loading), but makes it very muddy too. One day when I had to move my speaker while I was working on my system, the negative change in its bass performance was was highly noticeable! You will also find nulls in your room where the LF DIES.
By placing LF sources around the room, you can excite different room modes. There are different approaches to this, but in the end, the goal is to excite as many room modes as possible, thus minimizing nulls or standing waves, and creating more even sound.

My description might be a little clumsy, and as I learn more myself, I might even revise some of it.

But DO please research how LF works in a room and why its important to experiment with placement.
Here's one brief description of the Geddes approach. One from Audioholics. Lifewire. And many others if you look.
I am personally experimenting with non-symmetrical placements, one each on the side walls. I chose those locations after doing the crawl... they were neutral sounding spots. (I also found the corner problem and a dead spot, both of which I avoided!)

Hope this helps!

I understand that there is some trial and error but you do seem to have a good understanding of what you're talking about. As I said earlier, I am in a similar position, with one open wall to the next room, so I wanted to know if its better moving them. I'll take a look at some of those articles. My only other option is rear corners. It might help because of the size of this room (17x23x20), but I am also only a foot off the back wall.

 

[ryanosaur]

Given the size of your room... do you really have 20'ceilings???... a great suggestion for you might be putting one sub near-field behind your couch. Yes you would need to pull the sofa out a bit, and buy a long subwoofer cable, but that is the kind of thing you have to balance with audio. But having front and back wall, placements might help you, especially having one near field assuming that sofa is your LP. You could easily experiment it sounds like with 1/4 wall placement front and back... using opposing sides of the room... assuming you move the sofa just a touch more. Without seeing your room, its hard to make more than the random suggestion like this, but people do things like sub as an end table... or depending on the size, under a table... the LF waves don't care.
much like I advised the OP... read about the crawl, then try it. put some good music with strong bass that you know... and crawl around your room as if YOU were the SUB, and the SUB is in YOUR LP. That type of engagement, though it might seem silly, will teach you way more about your room and the acoustics than tacking up panels willy-nilly.
Depending on the subs you use, you might not even have enough woofage for your room... and instead of trying to pressurize the whole room, another approach is to use nearfield placements to pressurize your LP. End tables on each side of the couch? Rear-wall and sidewall placement.

Being into sound doesn't have to be exclusive to your life, and neither should your life exclude you from questing for better sound. I'm not advocating for disregarding your partners opinion, but get her to play along? One person quipped that once they got the subs set up and working right, he noticed her start to smile instead of grumping about it! Dunno if that applies to you like it might the OP, but still...

@Sergio Sotolongo , if you're cool with it, post some photos of your room. I might be able to make other suggestions. Also, it helps to know equipment in terms of how much power your speakers have to get to your LP, and what obstacles they have to overcome.

Cheers!

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

Yeah, it's a big living room. It's a two story house, and framing and concrete can get expensive, so they leave it as one big open area. I live in South Florida. We have to build out of block and concrete for hurricanes.

Top image is the view from the listening position. The subs are positioned on each side under a table. They're 12" subs. I've experimented with them inside and outside of the mains. I positioned the subs on the inside because I experimented with the mains on the outside and I noticed a tad bit of improvement with the mains. I may be building a new cabinet soon. I wondered if incorporating a sub from Dayton or something might be helpful or not.

Image 2 just shows from the main position to the left. It's hard to put a sub in that corner right next to the front door.

Image 3 shows to the right and the opening into the next room. Same issue with putting a sub in that corner.

Image 4 is from the from the door into the room. You can see the stairs. The recliner where my daughter is sitting marks where I have a reflection point. I try to keep something soft on top for what little help it gives me. That table in the back corner is probably going to go. It was in the center of the room but after taking it out to paint, the wife decided she liked the open layout and wanted it out of the way. I haven't had time to get it out of here. I've thought of putting one sub in that corner, but I don't know if it will affect the surround speaker right above it.

Image 5 is from the opening back into the room. Pardon the clothes. Saturday is laundry day. For a while when I only had one sub, it was in the corner behind the sectional. But with only one, i think I had to turn it up too loud and the wife complained about it being too bassy where she sat (adjacent to me in the listening position. I can put one there again easily. When we moved in, I ran a sub cable to that corner. I moved the sub to the front and added second one a while back after she kept objecting to the bass. The bass has improved much since I added the second. I haven't had much complaints lately about it, but with the size of the room, I think I'm missing out. I think I should be feeling it a little more.

The wife loves the home theater. She can't watch tv without it. We have sound panels all around because I told her it would improve the audio. She just couldn't handle the sight of bulky 4in panels, so we only have 2" ones though. Perhaps if the bass were set right she won't be as sensitive to it. Thanks for the help.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah... Ya need bigger subs! Like 2-3 15" monsters! That's almost 8000'3, with a lot more open area. Read this article too: bassaholic room rating. and before you add an extra sub, learn about using multiple subs! Always best to keep them matched for better performance and less acoustic issues.

First things I see, with the amount of large reflective surfaces would be curtains on the windows. Diffusion might be better behind your LP, and can be done DIY, but shelves with nick-nacks might do as well. if you are getting a lot of highs... try some of those panels behind your main speakers. Your first reflection points are pretty valuable acoustically and its not always advised to put absorption there. Maybe some area rugs in front of the speakers... keep what you have on the floor by the couch but treat the floor in front of your mains.

For the subs... one by the chair and table under the stairs could be a good option, especially with that table gone, you'll have a good amount of space to experiment with.. I still think you could benefit with one behind the couch. I know, a lot to move, but if you can, pull the couch forward one day, and do the crawl... just see what it might sound like with a sub back there. In between the door and the sofa could be a good spot, but again, crawl it out. Its crude, but you WILL hear it if its a good spot!

Your sub will not interfere with the surround.

Beyond that, ask questions! like you are, but start your own thread. and don't put the emphasis on room treatments, some people tune that out. But you do have some really good space to work with, its just a matter of finding those balances.

One other thing I see that might help out in general, is with pulling the couch forward a little, you'll get some better imaging from your side surrounds. Ideally, they would be a little behind you and aimed at LP.

Hope this help give you some ideas!

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

Yeah... Ya need bigger subs! Like 2-3 15" monsters! That's almost 8000'3, with a lot more open area. Read this article too: bassaholic room rating. and before you add an extra sub, learn about using multiple subs! Always best to keep them matched for better performance and less acoustic issues.

First things I see, with the amount of large reflective surfaces would be curtains on the windows. Diffusion might be better behind your LP, and can be done DIY, but shelves with nick-nacks might do as well. if you are getting a lot of highs... try some of those panels behind your main speakers. Your first reflection points are pretty valuable acoustically and its not always advised to put absorption there. Maybe some area rugs in front of the speakers... keep what you have on the floor by the couch but treat the floor in front of your mains.

For the subs... one by the chair and table under the stairs could be a good option, especially with that table gone, you'll have a good amount of space to experiment with.. I still think you could benefit with one behind the couch. I know, a lot to move, but if you can, pull the couch forward one day, and do the crawl... just see what it might sound like with a sub back there. In between the door and the sofa could be a good spot, but again, crawl it out. Its crude, but you WILL hear it if its a good spot!

Your sub will not interfere with the surround.

Beyond that, ask questions! like you are, but start your own thread. and don't put the emphasis on room treatments, some people tune that out. But you do have some really good space to work with, its just a matter of finding those balances.

One other thing I see that might help out in general, is with pulling the couch forward a little, you'll get some better imaging from your side surrounds. Ideally, they would be a little behind you and aimed at LP.

Hope this help give you some ideas!

Thanks. Lots of good info there. I have been reading up on diffusers and was wondering if they would be a better fit. I have some wood that’s just been sitting in my garage for a while, that I might just finally have a use for it.

 

[ryanosaur]

It could be... without taking measurements, its hard to know, and at that point your getting into some deep territory!
I've looked at these guys step diffusers... I think they can me adapted for lighter-weight construction with a little patience and creativity. Avoid the skyline style unless you want a very large and very heavy project! The fractal ones might be the best, but much more intricate.

Placed back wall between those windows, that with some good curtains over all windows... could be helpful. but again, with out room measurements, kinda shooting in the dark.

Adding better subs and placing them smartly is much less ambiguous. I can say with 90% certainty, that if you do the crawl with one of your existing subs, identify and mark 2-4 good locations, then move your subs... you will start to get better bass. If you upgrade to subs suitable for your room size, replacing those smaller ones in the places you marked off... you will find significant improvement. You might find that better bass balances the room reflections from your speakers and you won't need to keep working on treatments quite so much!

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

It could be... without taking measurements, its hard to know, and at that point your getting into some deep territory!
I've looked at these guys step diffusers... I think they can me adapted for lighter-weight construction with a little patience and creativity. Avoid the skyline style unless you want a very large and very heavy project! The fractal ones might be the best, but much more intricate.

Placed back wall between those windows, that with some good curtains over all windows... could be helpful. but again, with out room measurements, kinda shooting in the dark.

Adding better subs and placing them smartly is much less ambiguous. I can say with 90% certainty, that if you do the crawl with one of your existing subs, identify and mark 2-4 good locations, then move your subs... you will start to get better bass. If you upgrade to subs suitable for your room size, replacing those smaller ones in the places you marked off... you will find significant improvement. You might find that better bass balances the room reflections from your speakers and you won't need to keep working on treatments quite so much!

Those are the ones that I was looking at. I didn't like the skyline ones. For a living room, they just look unsightly. I tried pushing the wife towards curtains, but she prefers blinds, so I'll have to find other ways to soften the reflections in here. The diffuser we both like, so I'm looking into that option a little more.

I just tried the sub crawl. I didn't have a lot of time. I had the house to myself about 30 minutes. With kids, wires thrown around the floor is asking for trouble. I'll try it again with more time, when I have an afternoon. Corners of course were good. I noticed a spot adjacent to the couch on the back wall where the bass was dead. Wow. Thanks.

 

[ryanosaur]

Those are the ones that I was looking at. I didn't like the skyline ones. For a living room, they just look unsightly. I tried pushing the wife towards curtains, but she prefers blinds, so I'll have to find other ways to soften the reflections in here. The diffuser we both like, so I'm looking into that option a little more.

I just tried the sub crawl. I didn't have a lot of time. I had the house to myself about 30 minutes. With kids, wires thrown around the floor is asking for trouble. I'll try it again with more time, when I have an afternoon. Corners of course were good. I noticed a spot adjacent to the couch on the back wall where the bass was dead. Wow. Thanks.

Cool, I'm glad you got to hear a change in bass... that's the first step in starting to get it! There's another guy on a thread called Buying A Sub that might be worth for you to check out... just from set up and advice perspective. Might find it helpful.
Keep at it! Cheers

 

[ryanosaur]

Touching back on the topic of room treatments, I just read this post by a leading acoustics researcher who used to post here and still seems to consult with Gene and the AH staff.

The common failing of "room treatment" is that if absorption is attempted, only part of the sound is absorbed. One-inch fiberglass board absorbs sound only above about 1 kHz - all it does is attenuate the tweeter output, degrading what might have been a good loudspeaker. Chapter 21 discusses what to use.

Its an interesting read... more about speakers than room treatments, but any acoustic knowledge you can pick up and keep in your pocket is a win!
Here's the link:
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/can-objective-loudspeaker-measurements-predict-subjective-preferences.94960/
That quote was from post 25 by Dr Floyd Toole.
Cheers!

 

[Sergio Sotolongo]

Touching back on the topic of room treatments, I just read this post by a leading acoustics researcher who used to post here and still seems to consult with Gene and the AH staff.

Its an interesting read... more about speakers than room treatments, but any acoustic knowledge you can pick up and keep in your pocket is a win!
Here's the link:
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/can-objective-loudspeaker-measurements-predict-subjective-preferences.94960/
That quote was from post 25 by Dr Floyd Toole.
Cheers!

Thanks. I found a pdf version of the book too. Looks like I have some homework.

 

[loganschleich17]

First, I'm not an expert. There are a lot of articles and info about multiple sub setup. I did say might, too. Its also possible that those are the best locations. Though the OP also chose to put some bass traps in his front left corner which is a tip that somethings not right.
LF is finicky, and works differently from your other speakers. For your LF, room volume and open area is at play; the soundwaves are omnidirectional: going anywhere and everywhere they can. Speakers are directional and their loudness is a function of your distance from them (assuming 90db efficiency at 1m: -6dB at 2, -12dB at 4... etc, you would be experiencing ~80dB sitting at ~10'away). That said... when considering sub placement, the rules of putting them next to your mains does not always work for several reasons.
Among them is the possibility of the speakers and subs working against each other. More likely is that the rooms natural acoustics are not being considered, and that by moving them around, you can find and excite different room modes which will in turn minimize standing waves or nulls and create a more even bass response.
I have a corner that not only amplifies the LF (premise behind corner loading), but makes it very muddy too. One day when I had to move my speaker while I was working on my system, the negative change in its bass performance was was highly noticeable! You will also find nulls in your room where the LF DIES.
By placing LF sources around the room, you can excite different room modes. There are different approaches to this, but in the end, the goal is to excite as many room modes as possible, thus minimizing nulls or standing waves, and creating more even sound.

My description might be a little clumsy, and as I learn more myself, I might even revise some of it.

But DO please research how LF works in a room and why its important to experiment with placement.
Here's one brief description of the Geddes approach. One from Audioholics. Lifewire. And many others if you look.
I am personally experimenting with non-symmetrical placements, one each on the side walls. I chose those locations after doing the crawl... they were neutral sounding spots. (I also found the corner problem and a dead spot, both of which I avoided!)

Hope this helps!

Hey Ryan I read the whole thread. Thank you for your information. I’ve had so much going on lately but after getting settled in the new place I’ll be around more. Ingot REW last week and have been playing with that. I’m going to do the crawl today because with the placement I have (still the same as OP photos) there’s a huge dip from 40-80hz. Today is my off day so I’m going to read those articles and do the crawl like I said and tell my wife to get pick out some thick curtains. Also I grabbed a mirror and found my real reflection points and I wasn’t even close like you said lol. So that lame “treatment” has been taken down. Thank you again and have a good day.
Logan


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[ryanosaur]

Hey Ryan I read the whole thread. Thank you for your information. I’ve had so much going on lately but after getting settled in the new place I’ll be around more. Ingot REW last week and have been playing with that. I’m going to do the crawl today because with the placement I have (still the same as OP photos) there’s a huge dip from 40-80hz. Today is my off day so I’m going to read those articles and do the crawl like I said and tell my wife to get pick out some thick curtains. Also I grabbed a mirror and found my real reflection points and I wasn’t even close like you said lol. So that lame “treatment” has been taken down. Thank you again and have a good day.
Logan


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You're welcome! Glad if even one of my suggestions helps out. And don't be afraid to ask more questions.

 

[loganschleich17]

You're welcome! Glad if even one of my suggestions helps out. And don't be afraid to ask more questions.

Will do. I just posted my graph , I thot I’d add it here too and see if you had any thoughts.its at 85db with Audyssey off. Blue is crossover at 80, orange 100, green 120

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[ryanosaur]

I'm not an expert with REW... not gonna get ut until after my real mains are ready in another month or two.
To make it easier to read, I know some people have talked about applying smoothing to the graph, but I don't know the proper setting for that. Theres also a trick to save the graph as an image that you can upload straight away.
Do a forum search on it, you should find some good help... Likewise don't be afraid to start a new thread for using it. There are some cool cats here that no the program and acoustic stuff far better than I.

What are your main speakers and subs? Don't recall if that ever got included here.