Room acoustics - Vaulted Ceiling

M

myatix

Enthusiast
Hi All,

I was wondering if someone might be able to help me with some acoustic advice for a new home theatre setup in a new extension I am currently building onto my house. I want to setup a 5.2.4 surround setup. One of the key factors is also that the space remains a lounge area and not predominantly a home theater.

I have been doing a lot of research an can see that sound in a room with a vaulted ceiling can be challenging so I would really appreciate some help from any professional out there.

The room is a 40m2 room with 4 meter to the apex of the ceiling and a ceiling angle of 25 degrees.

speakers.jpg


Screen Shot 2019-02-28 at 22.22.11.png


I am a little concerned about the room acoustics due to the vaulted ceiling and was wondering what peoples thoughts were with regards to at atmos setup in this type of room? I am planning on putting 4 atmos speakers in the ceiling (Represented by the star on the cross section)

What are your thoughts about this? I would really appreciate any thoughts on this and recommendations with regards to sound optimisation in the room. We are planning on installing an acoustic ceiling to help improve the echo in the room using a category C diffusion ceiling board.

As for the surround setup I was planning on the below setup:

Speakers:
Left/Right:
B&W 704 S2 or 702 S2
Center: B&W HTM71 S2
Surround: B&W 707 S2 (Maybe B&W CCM682)
Sub: Arendal Sound 1723 Subwoofer 2 or maybe (2 x subwoofer 1)
Atmos: B&W CCM683

Reciever:
Denon X4500H or Marantz sr8012


I look forward to hearing from anyone that might be able to advise on this!

Thanks!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Vaulted ceilings can actually be somewhat friendly too: it breaks up all the parallel surfaces.
One friend here has his Atmos set up in a large room with vaulted ceilings too. Totally doable! Hopefully @William Lemmerhirt will stop in with some input too.

More than anything, I would recommend making certain your subs are up to the task. LF soundwaves work differently than your standard speakers, where distance-from is more important. LFs work on room volume and will go wherever they please, so if you have a very open floor plan, you need to consider that, too. That said, you don’t need to pressurize the whole room, but s second sub, and proper placement for both is key to having good bass response for your listening area, not just your main seat.
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
Hi,
Thanks for the reply and input! It would be really great to hear what @Willian Lemmerhirt has to say with his experience.

Have a great weekend!
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Hi,
Thanks for the reply and input! It would be really great to hear what @Willian Lemmerhirt has to say with his experience.

Have a great weekend!
@ryanosaur nailed it, with the lack of another parallel surface between floor and ceiling, smoothing out bass from seat to seat is made easier.

But when it comes to dealing with bass, the reality still remains, that the room is in control of what you can hear, when AND where. This is due to the size of the wavelengths of bass frequencies, and that reproducing them naturally induces standing waves (energy bouncing back and worth off walls, gaining in frequency with each reflection) between parallel boundaries.

These standing waves are the reason that each seat of a couch, may not be able to hear the same notes, at the same time due the large energy waves creating high and low pressure zones.

Since you want the space to look less like an HT, I recommend employing at least four sealed subwoofers. You can get them reasonably small, and depending upon their output, you may only need two to produce up to LFE crossover, and the other two may only need to produce the first octave 20-40 hz to give you the extra deep bass you would miss from a larger ported sub.
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
If its mostly for movies and not music really consider the ported versions as it will give a more physical sensation. (Many like this for music also)
Im very happy with my 3 arendal sub 1 subs but if not for health reasons at time of purchase i would have gone with 2x sub 1.5 instead. Unfortunate that subs need to be carried and hoverboards havent been invented yet.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Now that I'm not fresh outa the restaurant meat-grinder as I was last night... er, this morning... :p

+2 to @TheWarrior for elucidating in my lazy-broken-need-to-lie-down stupor!

I would love to have 3 or 4 subs in my little room. Admittedly, 2 Outlaws X-13s are almost like that... just wish I could clone one to experiment with. Everything is near-field to me!

What I really wanted to add here is encouragement and some info on setting up multiple subs. Quite frankly, I would urge you to consider doing so. A single sub at your front between speakers is "convention," and can be the worst spot for it. Mind, I'm not saying it is, but the possibility exists that leaving it up there without another sub-friend for it to play with could leave you wanting more.
One thing I've become a proponent of is the Sub Crawl: it is a crude technique, but it can teach you A LOT about your room acoustics and LF soundwaves, and how they play with each other. Put one Sub in your LP (does not have to be on your couch!),turn off or unplug all other speakers, play some Pink Noise, a rhythmic test tone, or some music you know well with a good prominent bass line (Daft Punk Get Lucky is one that comes up frequently),and crawl around where you might actually put the sub and LISTEN. In my 2000'3 room, I found a spot where the bass completely died, and one corner which not only amplified (premise behind Corner-Loading) but also made it super boomy/muddy sounding. The ideal is finding spots where the bass line sounds crisp, clean, punchy, not boomy or muddled. Mark the locations you find, then set up your sub in that spot, and listen from your LP. It should sound the same! :) If you identify multiple spots, that is where you would add your extra subs. ;)

In the end, I'm a fan of the Geddes approach which recommends as many LF sources as possible, including full range tower speakers, using strategic asymmetric placement around the room to excite as many room modes as possible. The more you activate, the more even the bass response is throughout the room. Testing also comes into play with his approach, but just using the crawl can help out a lot!

There are other approaches too, and many work well. The Geddes approach, for me, works best because it does give you a little more freedom in placement, and it counts your towers if they are capable at full range. I think your 700 series B&Ws are rated in the low 40s... so not really ideal as full range. If you had something getting you down to upper- or mid- 20s, you would be better off... But at that point it becomes a matter of system preference for yourself and your budget.

OK, lastly, I mentioned nearfield placement earlier. If you find one good spot somewhere in your room, and put a second sub near the couch that you have shown in the plans in your OP, that is what I'm talking about. It can be behind the couch, hidden under an end table or credenza... It doesn't have to be in the open and dominating your room. But this will give you a way of exciting some room modes with 1 strategically placed sub, and pressurizing the immediate vicinity of your listening area. A best of both type scenario. :cool:

Power Tools by Bass Mekanik This is a cool thing I found in iTunes/Apple Music that has straight test tones and rhythmic test tones. If you play around with it, be careful. If you run a 20 hz test through your B&Ws, you might very well blow something. However, Its fun to play with and hear different frequencies as you're setting up and dialing in your system.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
If its mostly for movies and not music really consider the ported versions as it will give a more physical sensation. (Many like this for music also)
Im very happy with my 3 arendal sub 1 subs but if not for health reasons at time of purchase i would have gone with 2x sub 1.5 instead. Unfortunate that subs need to be carried and hoverboards havent been invented yet.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
When I was setting up my rig, I ended up having to free lift one of my x-13s... at ~113# in its dishwasher-sized shipping box... it was neither fun or enjoyable. ;) Had I turned or taken a step, I probably would still be in traction! :p As it was I was just easing it off it's playfriend... had to stack them for a couple weeks while I waited for my AVR to come back from service. Might've been one of the dumber things I've ever done! ;)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Hi All,

I was wondering if someone might be able to help me with some acoustic advice for a new home theatre setup in a new extension I am currently building onto my house. I want to setup a 5.2.4 surround setup. One of the key factors is also that the space remains a lounge area and not predominantly a home theater.

I have been doing a lot of research an can see that sound in a room with a vaulted ceiling can be challenging so I would really appreciate some help from any professional out there.

The room is a 40m2 room with 4 meter to the apex of the ceiling and a ceiling angle of 25 degrees.

View attachment 28463

View attachment 28462

I am a little concerned about the room acoustics due to the vaulted ceiling and was wondering what peoples thoughts were with regards to at atmos setup in this type of room? I am planning on putting 4 atmos speakers in the ceiling (Represented by the star on the cross section)

What are your thoughts about this? I would really appreciate any thoughts on this and recommendations with regards to sound optimisation in the room. We are planning on installing an acoustic ceiling to help improve the echo in the room using a category C diffusion ceiling board.

As for the surround setup I was planning on the below setup:

Speakers:
Left/Right:
B&W 704 S2 or 702 S2
Center: B&W HTM71 S2
Surround: B&W 707 S2 (Maybe B&W CCM682)
Sub: Arendal Sound 1723 Subwoofer 2 or maybe (2 x subwoofer 1)
Atmos: B&W CCM683

Reciever:
Denon X4500H or Marantz sr8012


I look forward to hearing from anyone that might be able to advise on this!

Thanks!
Funny story @ryanosaur, I read this post last night, and I woke up this morning looking to revisit my response as a refresher. Guess what? I never commented...fell asleep instead! Lol


@myatix curious where you are located.
Btw looks like a healthy budget, and what will be a beautiful room.

So as Ryan said, I also believe the angled ceiling will come to your advantage. If I see your cross section correctly, the ceiling rises toward the front of the room where the display will go. Assuming this is correct, I would make a couple suggestions. First, read this. https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
It is important to follow the angles of separation if possible, and it looks you have done this with the top fronts. IMO though, that looks to be too far away even though it’s more/less in line with 45°


Here are supported locations

I also like that you super imposed Dolby’s recommended layout onto your image. I don’t like where they have the surrounds though, and IMO should be closer 110°. Like here...


So, one solution I like for a ceiling like yours, is the pendant speaker by JBL(Dayton also makes one).
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-60-series this allows you to set the speaker as if your ceiling were flat and IMO gives a fairly elegant look. They could even be decorated I suppose to fit in better?
I used rsl c34e’s in my ceiling, but it slopes up from left to right, and is only about 15°, which is almost the same as the baffle in the rsl. This basically has them firing straight down. How tall is the peak in your room?(sorry if I missed)


Apologies if my post is too perforated and I’m way off on your layout. I’ve been trying to write this over the last 5 hours while hanging with my family. Lol

I’m not super familiar with the arendal subs but on paper seem pretty good. I don’t love the passive radiator thing, but it can work. I’d love to offer you something on that front, but not sure where your located and what’s available. FWIW, I would go ported unless size really is a problem. Also, the PC(cylinder) models by SVS are IMO an elegant solution. They take up less real estate while sacrificing nothing in performance. You can probably see 2 of mine in the above pic.(yes I enjoy the appearance)

Ok. Let me know what I missed and maybe can better address later. I’m definitely not the ultimate authority on these things but I hate to not address something if I can help it.
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
Hi Again,

Thank you so much for getting back to me with all the valuable information above. I am actually based in Copenhagen, Denmark however originally from the UK. :)

Great stickman on a sofa! But yes you are spot on with the position of the screen and the sitting position.

One thing that is incorrect on the drawing I posted is that there is no window behind the sofa it's just a plain wall. The height to the apex of the ceiling is 4 meters (13ft) or 3968mm to be exact, as shown on the cross section drawings.

The distance from the front Atmos speakers to the sofa would be about 4 meters (13 ft).

My largest challenge here is my wife as she doesn't really want large speakers in the lounge and getting the B&W 702's in the lounge is purely luck due to the clean design offered by Bower and Wilkins. The same goes for the Arendal Sound 1723 Subwoofer 1, they are small and a number of AVForum experts recommended them as they a sealed and have extremely good reviews.

I can tell you now there is no chance in the world my wife would go with the pendant speaker. :(

Danish homes are very clean contemporary and minimalistic spaces and that's how most Danes have grown up and live. So my chances there are about ZERO.

We are also installing diffusion acoustic ceiling boards just like that shown in the picture below. In fact this is a very good example of a typical Danish contemporary style. Hence the reason for B&W fitting into the room, which I kind of understand from an aesthetics stand point.

FM - home 2560.jpg


Again I really appreciate the advice and all the input. I think I am leaning towards 2 subs but not sure about the front Atmos speakers? Do you think they are too far away from the sitting position? Doesn't seem like it in the Dolby Guidelines but I might be mistaken?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@myatix
I dig it. I have strong minimalist tendencies, myself.
When it comes to the ceiling speakers, some are aim-able. That might be something to check for.
Also, did you consider Dali speakers? I’ve always heard good things, and some of them seem to possibly keep with that styling... just a thought. ;)
Otherwise I think William’s comment about placing the Atmos speakers is based not so much on direct line distance, but how far forward they show in the elevation plan. If you actually sit where the “couch” is, you would want them closer so they are above, but only ~1 linear meter in front of you. The AVR will take care of distance and delay settings in terms of actual distance from.
:)
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
Hi Again,

Thanks for the feedback!

Dali is actually my second choice... :) I just like the warmer slightly more neutral sound from the new B&W 600 and 700 series. Dali speakers sound slightly sharper!

OK... The reason for me placing the front Atmos speakers where I did in the cross section was more to do with the directionality of the speakers rather than the actual location. I was a bit worried that if I move them 1 linier meter in front of the seating position they wouldn't be pointing at the audience. :)

But I can totally see @William Lemmerhirt's point... Hmmm... Maybe more of n Auro3D setup rather than Atmos! ;) Tricky!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The reason for me placing the front Atmos speakers where I did in the cross section was more to do with the directionality of the speakers rather than the actual location. I was a bit worried that if I move them 1 linier meter in front of the seating position they wouldn't be pointing at the audience.
Totally. The Aiming aspect is key. In the end, Your AVR will still make the adjustments... but the location becomes a hybrid between Front Height and Top Front. My lack of experience here won't allow me to say whether that would throw off the intended sound effect. However, We also have to work within our rooms! My Rears are mounted about 7'H, and aiming at my LP. When I get Atmos set up, There will not be a lot of distance between Top Rear and Surround Rear placement... maybe only 30". Not ideal, but if I move the rig to a larger room, I'll have all the parts in place for a more spacious set up. Will it work? Probably. Perfectly? Maybe not. Do what you can to meet the ideal, and accept the compromise where you need to for happiness and sanity! :)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I would also suggest moving the front l/r speakers closer together if your drawing is accurately illustrates location.
Same for the Atmos speakers.
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the great input, it is all really valuable information! :)

@mtrycrafts yes I agree the front speakers need to be moved together as well as the atmos speakers. I just used the dolby drawing as an overlay to represent the placement approx. But having the front right in a doorway wouldn't be optimal! :D

Thanks again for all the great input! :)
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
Hi Again,

I was just reading some feedback on this thread on AVForums https://www.avforums.com/threads/vaulted-ceiling-extension-advice.2169832/#post-26948358.

"One thing that is different about your set up is that because of the shape of your ceiling the front height speakers will be the same or greater distance from the listening position. Because of this its important that this speaker can play just as loud as your front speakers or it will limit how loud the system will play without distortion. If you cant do this raise the crossover to these speakers so they dont have to play so much bass."

My question would be do you think the front 702 S2 speakers are too large compared to the Atmos ceiling speakers?
Perhaps I should be looking at one of the CCM7.X series speakers for the front 2 Atmos Speakers?

https://www.bowers-wilkins.net/Speakers/Installation-Speakers/In-Wall-In-Ceiling/In-Ceiling.html

Any thoughts?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Hey myatix, hows things?
I went over the other thread you linked and it’s definitely quiet in the advice front. Bummer.

So, I can definitely appreciate danish minimalist design. I love simple glass and stonework with some steel mixed in there. I’m not beating this drum necessarily, but to go back to the pendant design, if you look at my new doodle, lol you’ll see I marked where if you had a regular flat ceiling where the height speakers would be placed. Your initial front height location basically hits that mark, but IMO as mentioned it’s going to be very far away and also very high. IMO it’s also too close to the front vertical plane where the front main speakers will be. These things aren’t insurmountable but I don’t believe the AVR can account for everything.


So I’ve attached some images of some pendants just for inspiration lol. IMO, they can be elegant and even painted to match the room. This is what I would do with that ceiling, but maybe you’ll get some other answers. What do ya think?

One set is by Anthony Gallo which I think you’ll have access to, and sonance might be another. Anyway, gotta run.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah. I think that would work. I won’t say it will work as well, but every room has its compromises. The angle looks a little bit tight so maybe go forward with the top front a little bit but it’s hard to get Atmos wrong so as long as your close, it will work. The one thing is that speaker in particular doesn’t have super high sensitivity and has a single 6” woofer so I might cross them at 100 or 110hz.


Look at that happy guy!!!
 
M

myatix

Enthusiast
lol... I love the doodles! :)

I have actually just got back from the Hifi shop and discovered that all of B&W speakers can be pointed in a specific direction. The in ceiling 600 series at 0, 15 and 30 degrees and the in ceiling 700 series at 45 degrees.

My issue now is that I had my wife with me and she things the center speaker is way too large to have sitting under the TV in the lounge.

1. Can you put a center speaker in on a cabinet shelf? (Like this? https://www.av-connection.dk/?PGr=1392)
2. How does this effect the sound if the speaker is right up against the the edge of the shelf?

Perhaps if I raise the crossover so the base goes to the sub?

Any input here?

You know how it is... Happy Wife, Happy Life! ;)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Well... IMO happy life isn’t determined by my happy wife. Lol. We find common ground here but everyone’s dynamic is different so if it works for you guys, make it happen.
For the center, it will most certainly suffer by being in the cabinet. Raising the XO will help, but still won’t fix everything. It’s still a second enclosure. Also, if it’s too far below the tv sounds may become disconnected from the tv. I would either build a riser for the tv with a way to have the center below/in front of it, or wall mount the tv.(that’s cleaner looking anyway lol) Also good point about the edge. You’ll definitely want to be all the way to the edge to avoid diffraction. And, once the whole system is in place, and the room is finished and decorated, that little center channel will “shrink” a lot.
 

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