riddle me this batman (OSD question)

[joshua]

Forgot to mention that the Panny does not do 480i over HDMI. For the same reason I had to get the iScan, need to upscale Xbox and NES to make the signal work on HDMI input.Hense the frustration

Yeah I also noticed this when I was setting up my 8300HD. No 480i over hdmi. There was something else it couldn't do either, but I can't remember now. All in all I'm not impressed at all with the hdmi technology so far.

 

[tytlyf]

You could run the svideo cable for the OSD, and use PIP. Its not bad. But its lame that it doesn't work right off the bat. My LCD says it supports 480i through HDMI, but the OSD sure doesn't display on it. Utter junk.

 

[joshua]

You could run the svideo cable for the OSD, and use PIP. Its not bad. But its lame that it doesn't work right off the bat. My LCD says it supports 480i through HDMI, but the OSD sure doesn't display on it. Utter junk.

Yeah I thought about that, but hardly eloquent. Good suggestion though.

 

[avliner]

Hi Joshua,

back to the topic though.

Well I took a time yesterday to cross-check data and have to tell you that "something happened in the way to heaven", as Phil Collins used to say...

As I said, "before" messing' round with cables I had the HDMI with overlayed OSD + volume control on screen, ONLY with the Pio 696 (HDMI equipped).
With the other 2 DVD's, black screen, NO sound and NO volume control.

What happened yesterday was something really weird; I mean, after re-connecting the HDMI cable, I couldn't get the overlayed OSD & volume back again on screen and I've spend several hours tweaking round n' round with cables & menu setup, without sucess.

After a while plugging / unplugging cables and considering/deleting probabilities - much to my surprise - I've got back again the overlayed OSD + volume "BUT" WITH AN S-VIDEO CABLE from DVD to the AVR!!! Believe me or not, if I disconnect this bloody S-Video cable, I got no image at all...
Bear in mind that the HDMI cable has been always connected and properly enabled on the AVR.

Furthermore, I told myself, well if I can get image + ovelayed info now only thru an S-video cable, why not trying with component one instead?
So I did it, and much to my surprise, NOTHING appears on screen at all and when I mean nothing, I'1m talking about image & OSD info.

As for the other 2 players (component only), the results are pretty much the same as before; I mean, NO volume control anytime and the black screen with the OSD info. The only good thing now is that I DO HAVE SOUND (I didn't before). I must have tweaked with the remote and have probably enabled that without knowing it; that's my guess though...

Considering that a photo worths a thousand words, I'm attaching some for you to see and to draw your own conclusions. Shots were taken after I unplugged the nasty HDMI cable.
Basically, nothing has changed; the only difference is that now I must have an S-video plugged all the time though... Why don't you try that yourself? Believe it may work on your 4306, who knows??

Oh, by the way, regarding to the picture quality, definition remains the same as before; i.e., paramount.

Now batman, could you riddle this one for me as well?

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[Nick250]

Not for nothing, but this is what I suggested in post 13. Finally someone actually tries it.

Nick

What if we connect the OSD from the receiver via S-VHS or composite to the same "video in" as the HDMI (ie, both on video two for example)? Has anyone tried that?

 

[avliner]

What if we connect the OSD from the receiver via S-VHS or composite to the same "video in" as the HDMI (ie, both on video two for example)? Has anyone tried that?[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Nick,

that's exactly what I've done with the S-video cable; there is, on same input (DVD), I have HDMI in one side AND the S-video on the other and that seems to be the only way to get back the overlayed OSD info + volume control.

Honestly, I still didn't figured out what could have been possibly wrong, as before unplugging the @#&%* HDMI cable from both ends (it was too short to access the back panel of the player though)...
Anyway, no big deal, as I'm still having info coming in, but it's interesting to figure out what's going on with such issue, don't you think so?

Let's keep chiming, though.

Cheers / Avliner.

Let's keep

 

[joshua]

Sorry Nick, I didnt' exactly understand your post. S-VHS is different than S-VIDEO and as far as I understand the 4306 you assign the input to whatever source you want. So plugging two into the same source seemed impossible? However, given this latest news I'm more than willing to give it a shot!!

Very interesting. Avliner... Here's a couple possible scenarios

1. When you go to the OSD the receiver automatically switches to the svideo input. Since it's 480i maybe it does this so it can actually display the image. Its using the interal source to display the OSD. Since svideo is the first logical choice for 480i overlay, it does that. Therefore when you do this you get the svideo feed instead of the hdmi feed. Sounds like an undocumented "feature" to me but it is possible. Are you using HDMI for sound on yoru dvd player and do you loose sound when you hit the setup OSD?

Why this doesn't work on the component definitely puzzles me though. Unless my next suggestion is occuring.

2. Your dvd player is defaulting to svideo when you plug that in. I'm not sure how plausible this is, but it seems like something that might occur. This of course would explain the whole thing. I'm not sure why it would ignore the hdmi though and if you have the receiver set to HDMI for that video input, this also makes less sense. Just an idea.

Anyway I'll give this a shot when I get home tomorrow. Thanks for the updated information!!! I won't be able to do this for my xbox unfortunately, but it should work the same way on my 8300HD cable box.

 

[Nick250]

Sorry Nick, I didnt' exactly understand your post. S-VHS is different than S-VIDEO and as far as I understand the 4306 you assign the input to whatever source you want.

Sorry, it's my mistake, S-VIDEO is of course the correct connection. I must have been in some sort of time warp when I wrote that.

Nick

 

[avliner]

Are you using HDMI for sound on yoru dvd player and do you loose sound when you hit the setup OSD?

Joshua,

yes, I do have sound over HDMI (no optical and/or dig. coax plugged though) and when I hit the OSD, sound goes out for a couple of seconds and returns back to normal afterwards.

Regarding to the component connections, I've tried your suggestion and the results are:

USING COMPONENT VIDEO ONLY:

progressive scan signal appears on TV screen, as well as overlayed OSD, but NO volume control appears though.

USING BOTH, COMPONENT & S-VIDEO:

same as above.

USING ONLY S-VIDEO:

both, overlayed OSD AND volume control shows up. In other hand, progressive scan signal doesn't show up when I change inputs on remote.

As you said, it could be an "undocumented feature" though.
Considering ther's no signal loss on PQ (using S-video only), that's the option I'm currently using, but mistery is still in the air, don't you think so?

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[billy p]

Interesting

however, for the amount of time it takes to make an adjustment it's much ado about nothing. Besides if I'm making changes I don't need the extra distraction on the screen.

 

[joshua]

So I tried this this morning. The setup and OSD screens now show up over the video. I can actually see the unit switch to svideo specifically when this happens, so at least for my receiver (4306) my hypothesis is correct. It blanks out the video/audio, I can hear the AVR switch, and then it redisplays with the OSD. This does not happen if I set the input to just SVIDEO, it only happens if I have it set to hdmi. Now I still don't get volume overlay though. If I switch entirely over to just the svideo cable (no hdmi) then of course it works just fine, but with the hdmi cable and svideo at the same time I get no volume overlay. I'm willing to bet you are watching an svideo signal from your dvd player to get the on screen volume overlay. It's not like svideo looks bad at all and the difference may be difficult to perceive. Electronically this is the only way I see it possible to get the volume overlay. Although I wouldn't have thought this would work either, so I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong. =) With that said though, I still claim that my first hypothesis is correct. The AVR is switching to svideo when it displays the OSD because this is the only way it CAN display the OSD. It's going to be black if you have nothing plugged into the svideo, or show the video if you do.

It's a bummer that none of this does anything for me though. I don't care about overlay on the OSD screens, I JUST need overlay on the volume and of course this is the one thing that doesn't work.

Joshua,

yes, I do have sound over HDMI (no optical and/or dig. coax plugged though) and when I hit the OSD, sound goes out for a couple of seconds and returns back to normal afterwards.

Regarding to the component connections, I've tried your suggestion and the results are:

USING COMPONENT VIDEO ONLY:

progressive scan signal appears on TV screen, as well as overlayed OSD, but NO volume control appears though.

USING BOTH, COMPONENT & S-VIDEO:

same as above.

USING ONLY S-VIDEO:

both, overlayed OSD AND volume control shows up. In other hand, progressive scan signal doesn't show up when I change inputs on remote.

As you said, it could be an "undocumented feature" though.
Considering ther's no signal loss on PQ (using S-video only), that's the option I'm currently using, but mistery is still in the air, don't you think so?

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[Nestor]

On my Yammy, I notice volume and gui overlay on all sources but hdmi. I only have hdmi out to the tv.

I suspect the receiver cannot overlay onto an hdmi (read: digital) source.

Or has this already been stated?

 

[joshua]

On my Yammy, I notice volume and gui overlay on all sources but hdmi. I only have hdmi out to the tv.

I suspect the receiver cannot overlay onto an hdmi (read: digital) source.

Or has this already been stated?

It cannot overlay onto 720+ (HD) resolutions. The gui is 480i, so unless you have 480i coming into the unit, it will not be able to overlay. This is what yamaha, sherwood, and denon have all told me. It shouldn't work on component either if you have your input sources outputting something greater than 480. What I've seen so far, it has nothing to do with what connection technology you use. It's the resolution. Please feel to correct this if you believe it to be otherwise.

I'm now using a pioneer elite unit and I can say that the overlay on HD signals doesn't work either.

 

[MDS]

Yep, that's what I said in post #2.

 

[billy p]

Yep, that's what I said in post #2.

Yep, you sure did.

 

[avliner]

Holy HDMI Batman, I was wrong...

Hi Joshua,

you know what? You were right on your conclusion buddy...
Yeah, I was getting video signals thru S-VIDEO and/or COMPOMENT and NOT thru HDMI, though.

What I did in fact, was to UNPLUGG all video cables, EXCEPT HDMI.
That explains WHY I was the lucky one; I mean, being able to get both, overlayed OSD AND volume control on TV screen. That always happened because I had an S VIDEO plugged in (along with HDMI). Now I'm not having both options anymore, because I decided not to use the S-video and compoment anymore. Well, now I only have the OSD (on a black screen).
I really don't care in having both options the way they were before...

Much to my surprise, I went into another issue with the TV set:

the ONLY WAY to get the HDMI connection to work is to select the INPUT # 6on TV (which can be assigned and now is DTV); otherwise no way to get image. You won't find that info on Sony's manual though, so not only Denon manual sucks, but Sony as well.

Furthermore, the input signal that appears on TV when you change options is not anymore PROGRESSIVE, but HD instead (it was progressive before, due to the component cable). That proofs HDMI is working properly.

As HDMI signal was not passing thru, I've unplugged everything and started to isolate possibilities, so I initially plugged the DVD directly into the TV (no image & no sound); secondly I plugged the DVD into the AVR & monitor to the TV (no image, but with sound).

Finally I started to tweak with the TV's remote, changing inputs, where I found that - in order to get SOUND & IMAGE THRU HDMI - it must be ONLY THRU INPUT # 6 (DTV).

Well, now that the mistery is over, it's time to get back to the batcave!

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[joshua]

Yeah, everything has gotten SO much more complicated with AV setups now. Sometimes I think it's too complicated even for the engineers designing these units! I mean do I really need the 20 different sound settings on my receiver? Do we really need 12 different kinds of inputs? It just seems like the industry is way over complicating things for the sake of marketing (and yes some of backwards compatibility). Everyone run out and pay the lucas tax for THX xyzg123412 version II or the new dolby standard 10000. They make such a HUGE difference. /end rant/sarcasm

Well I took back my 4306 for a pioneer elite 84. I just was not very impressed with denon and the top of the line pioneer was so much cheaper. Of course none of this helps my OSD issues, but I don't feel as bad now that I didn't spend quite so much.

HEY ENGINEERS PLEASE GIVE US 720/1080 OSD OVERLAYS. please?

 

[avliner]

You're right on your thoughts!
That's the neverending story though...

In other hand, why did you change the Denon for the Pio?
Really curious...

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[kenhoeve]

So the only question now is do I mount a small dedicated LCD for just OSD. That is crap. It will ruin my aesthetic. If I could place it table top, that would be fine. But I've no where to hide a wire. Bollocks.

 

[joshua]

You're right on your thoughts!
That's the neverending story though...

In other hand, why did you change the Denon for the Pio?
Really curious...

Cheers / Avliner.

Price for value more than anything. I've never had a THX receiver and the pioneer elite has more rated power and THX rating for LESS than the yamaha 2700 or the denon 4306. THX is just a "lucas tax" but I thought I'd give it a shot. I really didn't need the internet options and they're very poorly designed on both the other receivers anyway. Also the pio has one extra hdmi port.

Other than that I just wanted to try it.