riddle me this batman (OSD question)

[joshua]

Why is there not a single receiver out there that will do proper on screen gui overlay over a 720/1080 signal? Is there some specific reason these incredibly expensive hdmi (or component for that matter) switching and upconverting av receivers couldn't implement a on screen gui for something other than just 480i?

 

[MDS]

The receiver would have to convert the OSD to 720p/1080i before it could be overlayed on top of a 720p/1080i signal. My guess is that would add too much in terms of time and engineering effort so they don't bother because setup is used infrequently - generally once it is setup correctly you don't mess with it anymore.

 

[GlocksRock]

True, but some people such as myself still like to see the volume control on screen.

 

[joshua]

True, but some people such as myself still like to see the volume control on screen.

*pointing at nose*

Yes indeed. All my components are hidden in the closet. I don't care about setup. I care about volume, resolution, and sound field settings that DO change frequently.

Why is it hard to use the SAME scaling engine to scale their gui to 720/1080?

 

[kenhoeve]

*pointing at nose*

Yes indeed. All my components are hidden in the closet. I don't care about setup. I care about volume, resolution, and sound field settings that DO change frequently.

Why is it hard to use the SAME scaling engine to scale their gui to 720/1080?

I feel your pain. Same problem.

Denon told me all I have to do is run a S-video from the rec to the TV and it will overlay. First, I really doubt this. Second, this would require a lot of work as my stuff is wired through an inaccessible area so I'm kinda screwed. I could run a temp wire and test it, but haven't done so yet.

 

[joshua]

I feel your pain. Same problem.

Denon told me all I have to do is run a S-video from the rec to the TV and it will overlay. First, I really doubt this. Second, this would require a lot of work as my stuff is wired through an inaccessible area so I'm kinda screwed. I could run a temp wire and test it, but haven't done so yet.

Hah well of course it will, but then you'll be using 480i because you'll have to use the svideo input on your tv. It's not like it's just going to magically show up on your hdmi tv input because you ran an svideo cable to your tv.

So sure if you want to change the input on your HDTV to a 480i input (svideo) and use that all the time then it will work great. But what the hell is the point of that? Or, lets see you could switch to that input every time you wanted to see the "OSD" and then switch back, but again that seems rather inane in a receiver that's suppose to specifically support these higher resolutions.

It's crap I tell you! CRAP!

 

[kenhoeve]

It's crap I tell you! CRAP!

Amen. What I was thinking they were telling me was that you could run them parallel (hdmi/svid) and it would overlay. OH, the naivety of this neophyte.

 

[joshua]

Amen. What I was thinking they were telling me was that you could run them parallel (hdmi/svid) and it would overlay. OH, the naivety of this neophyte.

Well that would be something your tv would have to do. Although I certainly don't know everything there is out there, I haven't seen any tvs that will do overlay for you. If you do find a way to get it to work, I'd love to hear about it. Maybe I'll try to call Denon and see what they say, but I'm guessing tha tjust means you have to switch to that input anytime you want to see the OSD. Such a bummer. Nothing from CES is saying it's going to change anytime soon for the OSD either.

The yamaha rep did mention that it had something to do with HDMI protection of content, but that doesn't make sense because it doesn't work over component cables either (if the signal is 720/1080).

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox now. =)

 

[Nick250]

My understanding is that Denon receivers with HDMI to the receiver and HDMI from the receiver to the display will overlay. Have not tried it myself since my display does not have an HDMI connection. I could be wrong, but were I in your shoes I would check it out. I give it a 75% chance I am correct.

Nick

 

[joshua]

My understanding is that Denon receivers with HDMI to the receiver and HDMI from the receiver to the display will overlay. Have not tried it myself since my display does not have an HDMI connection. I could be wrong, but were I in your shoes I would check it out. I give it a 75% chance I am correct.

Nick

It has less to do with the physical connection and more to do with the resolution. The outcome is the same if you use a component or hdmi output cable. I have hdmi into the unit (from my 8300hd cable box) and out to my tv (panasonic 50" plasma) through a 4306. I also have a component input. Neither of these work with the overlay. So what you suggest will not make a difference unfortunately.

Maybe I should be more specific. The overlay for the setup menu will appear. It just blacks out the video (and mutes the audio) and displays the setup menu. I really don't care about the setup menu. What I want to see is overlay volume over the top of the image. It would also be nice to be able to see sound field settings as well.

The technical details as I understand them are this. Basically the OSD overlay is 480i and 480i only. When it pushes a 480i overlay on top of a 720/1080 signal it will not show up. Some receivers get around this by stopping the video and changing just to a 480i signal so you can see the setup screen. This of course does't help for volume or other important info. If your source is 480i then it doesn't have any problems. It overlays over the top then upscales if it needs to afterwords. Unfortunately it does't work the other direction (720p in, downscale to 480i, overlay, upscale back to 720p). Now that I think through it, it completely makes sense. They'd have to downscale the image to get the overlay to work and why would they want to do that?

What we need is overlay screens set at higher resolutions.

 

[agarwalro]

My understanding is that Denon receivers with HDMI to the receiver and HDMI from the receiver to the display will overlay. Have not tried it myself since my display does not have an HDMI connection. I could be wrong, but were I in your shoes I would check it out. I give it a 75% chance I am correct.

Nick

Nope. It does not work. I have DVD going to HDMI in, and then use HDMI out to the TV. It does not work.

What does work is, if you use component to the TV, but then you dont get the 'overlay', the receiver simply grey's out the background.

 

[agarwalro]

What we need is overlay screens set at higher resolutions.

Bingo. Bingo.

 

[Nick250]

Maybe I should be more specific. The overlay for the setup menu will appear. It just blacks out the video (and mutes the audio) and displays the setup menu. I really don't care about the setup menu. What I want to see is overlay volume over the top of the image. It would also be nice to be able to see sound field settings as well.

What if we connect the OSD from the receiver via S-VHS or composite to the same "video in" as the HDMI (ie, both on video two for example)? Has anyone tried that?

Nick

 

[avliner]

Hi there,

let me get into the show:

I have a Sony LCD 42" TV, model KDF - E42A10 and a Pioneer DVD model DV - 696A (it's an upscaling model, which also plays SACD & DVD-A). Upscaling is set to 1080i though. All being plugged into a Denon 3806 AVR.

I have the overlayed OSD info anytime, with volume control as well.

In other hand, there are 2 more DVD's plugged into the AVR - which are not HDMI capables (component only) - and the Denon OSD setup doesn't get overlayed as with the HDMI player. I got the OSD setup whenever I want to, but the TV's image cuts off (screen becomes black, without any sound).
In both cases, no volume control appears on screen and that is due to the TV resolution.

Oh, one more thing: considering that I had some extra cables without use, I've plugged both (component & S-video), from AVR monitors out to TV.
Perhaps that's the catch that allows me to see the overlayed OSD thru HDMI, who knows??

Hope this helps.

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[Nick250]

Page 15 of the 3806 manual. Fortunately for me I don't use HDMI. Good luck.

Nick

http://usa.denon.com/AVR3806DFU.pdf


On screen display for component video outputs and HDMI output
• When viewing component video signals or HDMI signals via the AVR-3806, the on screen display is displayed on the monitor when
the “System Setup” operations are performed and when the remote control unit’s ON SCREEN button is operated.
• To view the on screen display using an HDMI monitor, set “Analog to HDMI Convert” at “HDMI Out Setup” to “ON” (default).
• When only component video signals are input to the AVR-3806, the characters of the on screen display are not displayed over the
picture.

 

[joshua]

Hi there,

let me get into the show:

I have a Sony LCD 42" TV, model KDF - E42A10 and a Pioneer DVD model DV - 696A (it's an upscaling model, which also plays SACD & DVD-A). Upscaling is set to 1080i though. All being plugged into a Denon 3806 AVR.

I have the overlayed OSD info anytime, with volume control as well.

In other hand, there are 2 more DVD's plugged into the AVR - which are not HDMI capables (component only) - and the Denon OSD setup doesn't get overlayed as with the HDMI player. I got the OSD setup whenever I want to, but the TV's image cuts off (screen becomes black, without any sound).
In both cases, no volume control appears on screen and that is due to the TV resolution.

Oh, one more thing: considering that I had some extra cables without use, I've plugged both (component & S-video), from AVR monitors out to TV.
Perhaps that's the catch that allows me to see the overlayed OSD thru HDMI, who knows??

Hope this helps.

Cheers / Avliner.

Hmm you're definitely the first person I've seen who has got this to work this way. The fact that the other cables are plugged into your tv should not matter, but eh I'll give it a shot for the hell of it. I mean these cables are plugged into different inputs on your tv right? So how on earth would they display on your hdmi input?

Why would the overlay only display correctly with HDMI->HDMI and not COMPONENT->HDMI? I'm thinking this is still a resolution issue. Perhaps it's the difference between interlaced (you are using 1080i?) and progressive and not so much the lines of resolution. I'm doubtful on this though.

The only time I've seen the volume overlay work is when I had my xbox svideo input to the 4306 (with the 4306 using an HDMI output). The xbox was outputting 480i (due to the svideo cable capabilities) and the overlay worked just fine. So I know it's not only HDMI->HDMI where it works.

Stranger and stranger

Nick -
All that does it allows the screen to be blanked out so the osd will show up (at least that's what it does for me). Without that "convert" it won't show anything at all for the osd setup. This is only for the setup though, volume won't show up either way. Thanks for pointing that out though, I didn't see that in my manual but figured it out through trial and error.

I haven't tried the "loopback" that you suggest. However, the denon setup (at least on the 4306) makes me select the input I want. Each one is assignable. I'm not sure it's possible to assign to inputs to the same input selection? That's an interesting idea though if there's a way to do that.

 

[joshua]

Avliner,

I just called Denon. They are claiming this is not possible. My original statement was correct. If your input resolution is not 480i then you will not get on screen overlay on an hdmi output peroid. I'm not calling you lair, I'm just telling you what Denon told me just now. It's possible you are not getting the resolution you think you are getting. You may be using one of the other input cables on your tv instead of your hdmi one.

Or maybe you just have that ONE receiver that works in this way =)

 

[avliner]

Joshua,

got your point, but I do reafirm what I said before.
If possible, tonite or tomorow I'll re-check all connections/settings and I'll revert to you on that.

I don't think I'm the lucky one, but truth is that since the very first time I've plugged the Pio DVD - ONLY THRU HDMI TO THE 3806 - I immediately started to see the VOLUME CONTROL + THE OVERLAYED OSD, believe me!

AFAIK, there ain't no way for you to manually tweak with the internal TV's scaler, right? The opposite it's true with the DVD and that's why I've set mine to 1080i (altough the TV's max. resolution is 1280 x 720p).

I'll be back with more details asap.

Cheers / Avliner.

 

[joshua]

Avliner,

No, there's no way to change the internal TV's scaler that I know of. What is odd is that you don't see the volume with your other inputs. All very strange. I believe you! I just can't imagine how it's working, expecially now that I've spoken directly to denon support myself. Maybe it's a fluke with your tv? The OSD for the volume actually gets sent regardless if it works or not. It just does not work because the two signals will not overlap correctly. Maybe in your case it does overlap ok for some reason. Might have more to do with your tv than with the receiver though. Only a current guess.

 

[agarwalro]

Nope. It does not work. I have DVD going to HDMI in, and then use HDMI out to the TV. It does not work.

What does work is, if you use component to the TV, but then you dont get the 'overlay', the receiver simply grey's out the background.

Forgot to mention that the Panny does not do 480i over HDMI. For the same reason I had to get the iScan, need to upscale Xbox and NES to make the signal work on HDMI input.Hense the frustration