REW and dual subwoofer calibration help?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I'd like @Polish023 to go back to what YPAO did and why he had to change delay
Haha I’m pretty good with the standard set up!!! I ran yapo first and then adjusted everything with my spl meter. Yapo through my distance off pretty good I used the old fashion tape measure and set all my distances myself then pretty much the standard stuff looked up my speaker crossover frequencies and set that properly and all speakers set to small. My room won’t allow any other sub placement so I’m I gotta work with what I got but I have them both next to my front speakers!!! I set my avr at 0 dB for my subs then adjusted the knobs on the back and used the spl meter to try to match them as close as possible. I set them each for 75 dB so their probably a little too bassy plus I feel REW will give me closer measurements to really match them!!! The mini dsp do you need to buy and connections for it or does it come with everything?
What do you mean YPAO threw off your delays (distance)? What did YPAO set and what did you have to change? Explain more what you did with the subs for level, too. Did you listen before you started making changes?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I'd like @Polish023 to go back to what YPAO did and why he had to change delay


What do you mean YPAO threw off your delays (distance)? What did YPAO set and what did you have to change? Explain more what you did with the subs for level, too. Did you listen before you started making changes?
Glad you brought that up. I was thinking of this too.
Ime distances are usually set pretty good, even if they don’t match the tape. If anything, I’ve found adding a few feet (depending) helps IR and can smooth the XO too.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Glad you brought that up. I was thinking of this too.
Ime distances are usually set pretty good, even if they don’t match the tape. If anything, I’ve found adding a few feet (depending) helps IR and can smooth the XO too.
I'm simply thinking let's start at the beginning before complicating it with more gear/procedures if YPAO was actually decent to begin with (as it might well be). More info about the room dimensions and placement of subs and seating could be helpful, too....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I'm simply thinking let's start at the beginning before complicating it with more gear/procedures if YPAO was actually decent to begin with (as it might well be). More info about the room dimensions and placement of subs and seating could be helpful, too....
Agreed.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Glad you brought that up. I was thinking of this too.
Ime distances are usually set pretty good, even if they don’t match the tape. If anything, I’ve found adding a few feet (depending) helps IR and can smooth the XO too.
I third that. Calibrated sub distances rarely match the physical measurements. It's more to do with timing than actual distance. If I even mess with it at all it might be to add a little.
 
P

Polish023

Junior Audioholic
My yapo ended up setting my speakers and subs like 12 to 15 ft. I’m in a small room for now so my speakers are like 6-8 ft away same for subs. My levels were crazy for the subs I set my gain in the middle and phase at 0 then yapo set them at 3 dB and 4 dB which is way too much bass for my room. So I switch everything to small and used my spl meter to level all the speakers to be roughly 75db. The subs I put to 0.0 in my avr and adjusted the gain and using the spl meter matched both subs to be 75db. Which now I should have set them both at like 72 so their matching dB would equal around 75. Then I through a movie in and messed with the crossover and picked whatever I felt had a good mix of bass and high sounds from my speakers and went with that ended up being surrounds at 80hz and my front towers at 60hz.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
My yapo ended up setting my speakers and subs like 12 to 15 ft. I’m in a small room for now so my speakers are like 6-8 ft away same for subs. My levels were crazy for the subs I set my gain in the middle and phase at 0 then yapo set them at 3 dB and 4 dB which is way too much bass for my room. So I switch everything to small and used my spl meter to level all the speakers to be roughly 75db. The subs I put to 0.0 in my avr and adjusted the gain and using the spl meter matched both subs to be 75db. Which now I should have set them both at like 72 so their matching dB would equal around 75. Then I through a movie in and messed with the crossover and picked whatever I felt had a good mix of bass and high sounds from my speakers and went with that ended up being surrounds at 80hz and my front towers at 60hz.
Think of that distance as a time delay that the application is using to set phase; best leave it along for now. Set even your front towers at 80hz too.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
My yapo ended up setting my speakers and subs like 12 to 15 ft. I’m in a small room for now so my speakers are like 6-8 ft away same for subs. My levels were crazy for the subs I set my gain in the middle and phase at 0 then yapo set them at 3 dB and 4 dB which is way too much bass for my room. So I switch everything to small and used my spl meter to level all the speakers to be roughly 75db. The subs I put to 0.0 in my avr and adjusted the gain and using the spl meter matched both subs to be 75db. Which now I should have set them both at like 72 so their matching dB would equal around 75. Then I through a movie in and messed with the crossover and picked whatever I felt had a good mix of bass and high sounds from my speakers and went with that ended up being surrounds at 80hz and my front towers at 60hz.
Trim level setting of subs higher than 0 by the avr actually indicates your gain is a bit low on the sub, so I'd raise gain a bit on the subs then rerun ypao and aim for 0 or a bit less myself, but a setting of 3 or 4 dB is fine as well unless you're planning on adding level for boost. Was it an assumption this was "too much bass for my room" or was that how it sounded after running YPAO? As was mentioned distance is a form of delay so signals arrive at your listening position at the same time, not particularly an exact physical distance (and how did you do that anyways?); there's a bit of inherent delay added by a sub due the extra processing in the sub amp. I'd have left it alone.
 
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Polish023

Junior Audioholic
I talked to svs and the customer service told me to set the sub at 0.0 in the sub and then use the spl meter and gain knob to match the dB of my speakers. I set yapo first and then measured the speaker and sub distances. Then leveled everything off with the spl meter. My subs were off from each other in the receiver probably 3 or 4 dbs and the subs are located about the same distance away. I just felt yapo did nothing to help my system calibration.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
It is garbage a lot good that 3000 bucks was
Haw? Bad results? Did you try again? What happened? Remember, the distances it sets for your subs is for timing so the bass arrives at your seat at the proper time. My room EQ puts my subs at 3 or 4 feet further (actual distance is 11 feet. Audyssey sets them at 14 feet or so) than they actually are. When you do measurements with the mic, the more you do the better and follow the pattern for each mic position carefully (if there are multiple positions).
 
L

latteDev

Audiophyte
I never stated it was the best. I stated that it has the most features at its price.

There is reason it was mentioned in the first place, a lot of us use them. As stated I've used others so I have a pretty good idea what's available.

The purpose of my discussion was about EQing below the Schroeder frequency.
That's were the room is interacting the most.
His subs were stated in the beginning FWIW.
Thanks for the explanation Re minidsp, I still don't see where the type of subs are stated, but no matter.
I was merely making the point that in a small room there is not a lot of point in using expensive instrumentation to determine how something is going to sound. Using a DSP is down to the individual, but I do agree it can be set to achieve the type of sound best suited for yourself.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
Thanks for the explanation Re minidsp, I still don't see where the type of subs are stated, but no matter.
I was merely making the point that in a small room there is not a lot of point in using expensive instrumentation to determine how something is going to sound. Using a DSP is down to the individual, but I do agree it can be set to achieve the type of sound best suited for yourself.
The point of using REW/MiniDSP/Umic (a $200 investment- expensive?) is to visualize bass frequencies in room, and change the impact the room will have on bass frequencies.

The benefits are:
Bass frequencies are room, and speaker placement sensitive. All other things being equal, the speaker subwoofer is only responsible for head room and extension at the bass region.

Finding the flattest frequency response position in room is far easier with a mic and graph than without. I'd rather have relatively inexpensive GPS, opposed to randomly driving around a neighborhood looking for the right street and address.

Smoothing out the response after placement is only achievable with DSP. Flatter frequency response can nearly always be had, and is nearly always beneficial.
 
L

latteDev

Audiophyte
Just checking, but when you mentioned “you can place the sub anywhere “, I’m assuming you mean independently of the subwoofers, not just arbitrarily in the room. Just afraid someone might mistake that as you could just randomly place them as...
It was mentioned earlier by latte that omnidirectIonality negates the need for proper placement which is not true, since omnidirectIonality has nothing to do with room modes.
Actually what I said was "Don't forget bass is not directional as such so where you have them is not that important in a house. " This of course is not a literal statement, given it was in answer to Polish stating he had the subs under the speakers.
Right, I'm in disagreement with most of his opinions as mentioned on this thread.

A miniDSP has many many times the proper bandwidth for applying PEQ to bass frequencies. Much of his criticism might have more warrant if we were discussing full range. I might not recommend A MiniDSP for a full range active speaker application that you plan on using for critical listening, but even then it's not terrible.

Dismissing a mic response for bass tuning is ludite speak. Beliving you can best that with just using your ear is chumpish at best. An omnidirectional mic is more than capable for bass frequencies, and presenting a visual graph of response is quick and easy. Humans aren't that sensitive to bass frequencies so a fair response might still sound good. However, the excellent response you never heard tuning by ear, will sound better.

and HDMI is fine... but oh boy, here we go...

"What type of sub is it?"
The impact of the topology of the subwoofer, if there is any, will be reflected in the measurements. A secondary consideration could be sealed vs ported, for determining room gain, but again measurements will reveal that impact as well.

"Is it a downward facing reflex speaker or is it a forward facing reflex?"
Every subwoofer creates bass from a focal point within the cabinet of the subwoofer. The position of the woofer has tertiary effect on performance. But if it did, see measurements.

"Is it carpeted or hard floor?"
This almost certainly never matters,, but room dimensions matter a lot. A secondary concern could be if on a slab, or crawlspace floor, but again, mic measurements will reveal that impact as well.

"All these things will create a different sound"
Ehh... Your primary concern are the room dimensions, and again, simple mic measurements will reveal the room's impact.

"It would be best to ask others what experience they have had with the different materials used."
It would be best to use your own quantitative date via mic measurements instead of folks opinions.

"This even goes to raising a sub further away from the floor to alter the tone."
Yes, moving a subwoofer in any of all three dimensions will change it's presentation at the listening position.
Actually first you need to look up what Ludite means, before applying it to anyone.
An omnidirectional mic is more than capable for bass frequencies, and presenting a visual graph of response is quick and easy.
Trying to state that a mic is good for bass frequencies just shows you have missed the point, not only from a technical aspect but also with the effects you get Re: sub woofers, which by their nature, are sub 100Hz devices.
Mic measurements are only as good as the mic used and the associated matched instrumentation.

Every subwoofer creates bass from a focal point within the cabinet of the subwoofer. The position of the woofer has tertiary effect on performance. But if it did, see measurements.
Try studying speaker acoustics and what influence a surface has upon the fabric of the speaker and its surround. A reflex cabinet is a tuned wavelength device and loading on the speaker will alter this to a greater degree than you appear to think.

The position of the woofer has tertiary effect on performance. But if it did, see measurements.
Wow silly statement, given a speaker reacts completely differently in free air to one that has a surface in front of it.
I won't go on and will leave this thread well alone given that your answer is just something to try and discount all I have said by your false assumption that technology is always best.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
Actually what I said was "Don't forget bass is not directional as such so where you have them is not that important in a house. " This of course is not a literal statement, given it was in answer to Polish stating he had the subs under the speakers.

Actually first you need to look up what Ludite means, before applying it to anyone.
An omnidirectional mic is more than capable for bass frequencies, and presenting a visual graph of response is quick and easy.
Trying to state that a mic is good for bass frequencies just shows you have missed the point, not only from a technical aspect but also with the effects you get Re: sub woofers, which by their nature, are sub 100Hz devices.
Mic measurements are only as good as the mic used and the associated matched instrumentation.

Every subwoofer creates bass from a focal point within the cabinet of the subwoofer. The position of the woofer has tertiary effect on performance. But if it did, see measurements.
Try studying speaker acoustics and what influence a surface has upon the fabric of the speaker and its surround. A reflex cabinet is a tuned wavelength device and loading on the speaker will alter this to a greater degree than you appear to think.

The position of the woofer has tertiary effect on performance. But if it did, see measurements.
Wow silly statement, given a speaker reacts completely differently in free air to one that has a surface in front of it.
I won't go on and will leave this thread well alone given that your answer is just something to try and discount all I have said by your false assumption that technology is always best.

Perhaps you tell me why Luddite shouldn’t apply to you. I’m comfortable with my understanding of it, and one who protests easier, and more proficient technology for the less capable and more difficult is a Luddite.

A mic is very relevant to measuring bass response in room and providing a graphical representation of it. The set up mic as discussed is more than adequate. The MiniDSP uMic, and a lap top. I’ll stand by while you discuss how hdmi matters. What a joke.

Please show me subwoofer frequencies being influenced by a surface such as a rug. Good luck. Compared to the hard floor under it it’s spit in the ocean.

No, we understand bass acoustics, and when it comes to bass frequencies it’s the room boundaries which are your primary concern. Everything else is a distant second. Maybe large pieces of furniture, also matter some, but again, see measurements. No guessing, or asking other fellow luddites needed about their subjective qualitative opinions of what worked in their room. No wine swishing. It's all laid out for you on a laptop screen.

Again, the focus origin of the bass is inside the speaker cabinet and only matters in such where that focal point is in relation to the nearest room boundary. All things being equal it shouldn’t matter for driver cabinet topology or matter very little. Cabinet topology doesn’t provide a unique secret sauce or sound, and knowing such doesn't provide meaningful advice that would be universally beneficial. Advice such as put a down firing subwoofer 3 feet away from the walls, or all side firing subs suck, or only sealed subs are good for music, can be dismissed as rubbish. But again, cabinet topology impact, whatever it is will be seen in measurements.

I’m comfortable dismissing your Luddite approach and your criticisms offered.
 
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Polish023

Junior Audioholic
What should you set your receiver main volume too for pink noise speakers leveling? I always did 0 dB which is pretty loud but that’s what I read on a lot of articles and forums?
 

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