Replacement decision on my Kef LS50

[TheWarrior]

We're ignoring it because it's not relevant to your original statement:

The omnidirectional output of low frequencies from a loudspeaker is a wholly separate issue from the dimensions of the room, and the contributions thereof. Baffle step concerns the transition from a 2pi (hemispherical) radiation to a 4pi (spherical) pattern. IOW, it's about the point where a speaker becomes omnidirectional.

4pi radiation is based on the presence of walls because you are accounting for the solid angles seen by the source - steradians.

If you remove the walls, and measure bass frequencies outdoors, guess what happens, they become localizable in the absence of room reflections.

The change in 'radpat' was also covered in my explanation of the actual metric, the Directivity Index. As frequency increases, wavelength shrinks and gains a forward bias.

But whether you are referring to radiation patterns, BSC, or LFE crossovers, it's all based on the wave lengths, which I have stated from the beginning and you're even quoting, and ignoring:

"Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room."

So what's the problem?

 

[Steve81]

4pi radiation is based on the presence of walls because you are accounting for the solid angles seen by the source - steradians.

Steradians as a SI unit of measure have absolutely nothing to do with the presence of physical walls.... A "solid angle" is the 3D version of an angle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_angle

If you take a subwoofer outdoors, and measure it, you'll find that it is indeed radiating sound in all directions. Looks like data-bass is currently on the fritz at the moment, but when it comes back up, I believe Josh showed this with the PSA XV30f-SE. And no, you're not localizing a pure 20Hz sound wave whether it's indoors or outdoors.

But whether you are referring to radiation patterns, BSC, or LFE crossovers, it's all based on the wave lengths, which I have stated from the beginning and you're even quoting, and ignoring:

Yes, they're based on wavelengths, be it as it relates to the size of the baffle re: the baffle step, the size of the driver concerning the narrowing of dispersion on the top end, and the sheer length of the sound wave relative to the distance between our ears. But the dimensions of the room don't dictate whether or not a loudspeaker is radiating 4pi or not.

So what's the problem?

The problem is that you seem to be completely incapable of saying "sorry, I misspoke". Instead you're trying to wiggle around the issue, wow us with your knowledge and videos of Dr. Toole, and apparently look up the definition of steradians without actually understanding what the definition of a solid angle is. Bravo sir.

 

[PENG]

"Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room."

So what's the problem?

The problem is that what you are stating is simply not true. Everyone agrees it is wavelength related, but if the wavelength is long enough, it will be omnidirectional regardless of the room dimensions.

Like Beave, I am just an EE, and don't have a PhD degree, why don't you give your idol Dr. Toole a call and let him tell you room dimensions is not in the equation, just wavelength relative to our head size/ear to ear distance, or the bass driver size if I remember correctly what Dr. Toole said in that video. Or just admit you made an honest mistake that I think you truly believe in until someone pointed it out. We all make mistakes anyway, it just need to be corrected and then move on.

 

[TheWarrior]

Steradians as a SI unit of measure have absolutely nothing to do with the presence of physical walls.... A "solid angle" is the 3D version of an angle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_angle

If you take a subwoofer outdoors, and measure it, you'll find that it is indeed radiating sound in all directions. Looks like data-bass is currently on the fritz at the moment, but when it comes back up, I believe Josh showed this with the PSA XV30f-SE. And no, you're not localizing a pure 20Hz sound wave whether it's indoors or outdoors.



Yes, they're based on wavelengths, be it as it relates to the size of the baffle re: the baffle step, the size of the driver concerning the narrowing of dispersion on the top end, and the sheer length of the sound wave relative to the distance between our ears. But the dimensions of the room don't dictate whether or not a loudspeaker is radiating 4pi or not.



The problem is that you seem to be completely incapable of saying "sorry, I misspoke". Instead you're trying to wiggle around the issue, wow us with your knowledge and videos of Dr. Toole, and apparently look up the definition of steradians without actually understanding what the definition of a solid angle is. Bravo sir.

You're right, I did misspeak about steradians, and I have repeatedly owned up when I am wrong. That doesn't change the issue of wavelength being relative to room size when it comes to choosing an LFE crossover, which is what started this debacle. No, that relation is not the governing factor(never said it was), but it is related and relevant - didn't realize that would result in two pages of arguing!

But then here you are explaining baffle step compensation being related to the size of the driver and the distance between the ears - and somehow that has anything to do with an LFE crossover - which is far below the frequencies with which a BSC circuit needs to be implemented.

You cite narrowing dispersion, I cite Directivity Index. This could have been a useful discussion, but you and your buddy Beave (who even stated he has no interest in discussion) have not been able to carry on any sort of a polite discussion that has demonstrated how my original statement is wrong.

The problem is that what you are stating is simply not true. Everyone agrees it is wavelength related, but if the wavelength is long enough, it will be omnidirectional regardless of the room dimensions.

Like Beave, I am just an EE, and don't have a PhD degree, why don't you give your idol Dr. Toole a call and let him tell you room dimensions is not in the equation, just wavelength relative to our head size/ear to ear distance, or the bass driver size if I remember correctly what Dr. Toole said in that video. Or just admit you made an honest mistake that I think you truly believe in until someone pointed it out. We all make mistakes anyway, it just need to be corrected and then move on.

Frequency response of a given bass driver has nothing to do with driver size. That is not in the video, but IACC is discussed, but not in relation to bass response, BSC, or LFE crossover selection.

You and I have disagreed on Audyssey and more, but never in the fashion that has been demonstrated in this thread. I do appreciate your input and plenty of other comments you've made, but it is clear that it is time for this 'discussion' to come to an end.

Cheers!

 

[PENG]

You're right, I did misspeak about steradians, and I have repeatedly owned up when I am wrong. That doesn't change the issue of wavelength being relative to room size when it comes to choosing an LFE crossover, which is what started this debacle. No, that relation is not the governing factor(never said it was), but it is related and relevant - didn't realize that would result in two pages of arguing!

But then here you are explaining baffle step compensation being related to the size of the driver and the distance between the ears - and somehow that has anything to do with an LFE crossover - which is far below the frequencies with which a BSC circuit needs to be implemented.

You cite narrowing dispersion, I cite Directivity Index. This could have been a useful discussion, but you and your buddy Beave (who even stated he has no interest in discussion) have not been able to carry on any sort of a polite discussion that has demonstrated how my original statement is wrong.




Frequency response of a given bass driver has nothing to do with driver size. That is not in the video, but IACC is discussed, but not in relation to bass response, BSC, or LFE crossover selection.

You and I have disagreed on Audyssey and more, but never in the fashion that has been demonstrated in this thread. I do appreciate your input and plenty of other comments you've made, but it is clear that it is time for this 'discussion' to come to an end.

Cheers!

The topic is not frequency response , it's about bass localization. Hey , I was trying to help , but obviously made it worse instead , my apology ..

 

[Steve81]

You're right, I did misspeak about steradians, and I have repeatedly owned up when I am wrong.

No, you didn't misspeak, you Googled something, quickly read (and misinterpreted) a definition, and came here hoping to have some sort of AH-HA, you're WRONG moment.

That doesn't change the issue of wavelength being relative to room size when it comes to choosing an LFE crossover, which is what started this debacle. No, that relation is not the governing factor(never said it was), but it is related and relevant

I don't think anyone is arguing that room size could potentially be a factor in the selection of XO points, but it isn't related to the omnidirectional output of a loudspeaker, which is the statement that was originally challenged. And because your posts seem to mix the concepts, omnidirectional output isn't the same thing as whether or not the bass can be localized, which is largely related to the distance between our ears vs the length of a sound wave.

But then here you are explaining baffle step compensation being related to the size of the driver and the distance between the ears

And clearly you haven't actually read anything I've written. Again, great job.

This could have been a useful discussion, but you and your buddy Beave (who even stated he has no interest in discussion) have not been able to carry on any sort of a polite discussion that has demonstrated how my original statement is wrong.

People in glass houses...
And that was before I posted anything to you. Heck, my original post on this topic consisted of nothing more than *cough*baffle step*cough*, which I thought might be a hint, since it relates to the point where a speaker goes omnidirectional. After that, you accused me of somehow egging Beave on, because I agreed with the technical content of his posts. Again, that darned glass house...

 

[ematthews]

So this may sound crazy but I did a long listen with my Ascend Acoustics on really good Steven Wilson CD's yesterday. About 2 hours worth. I then immediately switched over to my Polk LSIm 703 bookshelf speakers. With the exact same volume and settings on the sub and P5 Pre amp.{ front speakers on 80hz cut off} I noticed a fuller deeper sound. More body if you will. And the voice in the songs sounded just as clear as the RAAL towers. Maybe, just maybe I really like the Polk's. Maybe it's just the fact that I need to get over the name and love the sound of them. This is the third set of different Polk's that I have owned and have liked all of them.. Maybe the big Polk LSIm 707 towers are where it's at for me.

 

[TheWarrior]

@Steve81 @Beave

I am sorry for my contributions that got us to this point.

My blinder's are simply to (constantly) reinforce the control the room has on bass and that led me to overlook the accurate points you both made.

Beave and I have agreed on points before, and I apologize for whatever happened here.

Steve you are right and I also had no business making accusations at you.

We're all fighting for the best sound possible. May there be mercy on the poor soul that would ever question that, about us!

Cheers, fella's!

 

[TheWarrior]

So this may sound crazy but I did a long listen with my Ascend Acoustics on really good Steven Wilson CD's yesterday. About 2 hours worth. I then immediately switched over to my Polk LSIm 703 bookshelf speakers. With the exact same volume and settings on the sub and P5 Pre amp.{ front speakers on 80hz cut off} I noticed a fuller deeper sound. More body if you will. And the voice in the songs sounded just as clear as the RAAL towers. Maybe, just maybe I really like the Polk's. Maybe it's just the fact that I need to get over the name and love the sound of them. This is the third set of different Polk's that I have owned and have liked all of them.. Maybe the big Polk LSIm 707 towers are where it's at for me.

Try again, in mono - even just disconnecting the L or R channel would suffice. Stereo listening masks many things about a loudspeakers timbral signature - negative qualities are much easier to detect in mono!

 

[ematthews]

Try again, in mono - even just disconnecting the L or R channel would suffice. Stereo listening masks many things about a loudspeakers timbral signature - negative qualities are much easier to detect in mono!

You know. I am not sure I even have a mono option on the Parasound P5 preamp. I'll have to go back and listen. I do have it on direct and using both sub and main controls to the on position. Set to 80 for both. In fact I leave it on 80 since I can not tell much difference when changing this setting to the sub or main controls.

 

[TheWarrior]

You know. I am not sure I even have a mono option on the Parasound P5 preamp. I'll have to go back and listen. I do have it on direct and using both sub and main controls to the on position. Set to 80 for both. In fact I leave it on 80 since I can not tell much difference when changing this setting to the sub or main controls.

I've not had 100% success with all the receivers I've used in being able to down mix stereo to mono. If you disconnect a single channel, just make sure you compare the other speaker using the same L or R channel. It's not perfect, but at least you'll be comparing the same inputs.

When I did that Bookshelf speaker review, comparing 4 pairs simultaneously was overwhelming. But, when done in mono, it allows you to compare A and B more effectively. But perhaps A and B suffer the same problem, so it helps to have C and D to verify.

 

[Pogre]

Alex, Alex, Alex... when will you learn that it's okay to have your information corrected and just simply concede a point without talking in circles and invoking Lord Toole at every turn? Honestly, in your shoes, I'd be a little more receptive to constructive criticism and a little less know it all. It's pretty obvious that you don't have a full grasp of what you're talking about. You might even learn something...

 

[Andrein]

Alex, Alex, Alex... when will you learn that it's okay to have your information corrected and just simply concede a point without talking in circles and invoking Lord Toole at every turn? Honestly, in your shoes, I'd be a little more receptive to constructive criticism and a little less know it all. It's pretty obvious that you don't have a full grasp of what you're talking about. You might even learn something...

Clearly you had a good vacation away from Audioholics. Fresh and cristal mind, etc... But wait a couple of weeks and it all gets back to norm

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Clearly you had a good vacation away from Audioholics. Fresh and cristal mind, etc... But wait a couple of weeks and it all gets back to norm

I thought Audioholics was supposed to be the vacation away from work and life?

 

[PENG]

Alex, Alex, Alex... when will you learn that it's okay to have your information corrected and just simply concede a point without talking in circles and invoking Lord Toole at every turn? Honestly, in your shoes, I'd be a little more receptive to constructive criticism and a little less know it all. It's pretty obvious that you don't have a full grasp of what you're talking about. You might even learn something...

You missed post#68.

 

[PENG]

You know. I am not sure I even have a mono option on the Parasound P5 preamp. I'll have to go back and listen. I do have it on direct and using both sub and main controls to the on position. Set to 80 for both. In fact I leave it on 80 since I can not tell much difference when changing this setting to the sub or main controls.

There are multiple ways, one is to use only one channel of the source, feed it through a Y splitter so you can feed the same channel to the left and right channel. In addition to comparing in mono, I think it is better to put the speakers being compared in the exact (or very close to) same location. I think Harman uses a turntable.

 

[Pogre]

You missed post#68.

I did. I shall retract my observation...

Hey, hit my incorporating Audyssey with MiniDSP thread. I quoted you. I want to try the same thing I was talking about months ago. I need to split some signals tho.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Spring for a pair of used Bowers & Wilkins 805D2. You will be in stand-mount heaven and get off the merry-go-round.

Some of us are talking about how B&W Diamond tweeters have the big broad peak at 10kHz.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/kef-reference3-vs-b-w-804-d3.110591/page-3#post-1235754

The 805D has a +7dB peak at 10kHz. Some people may like the hot treble, but some people may not like that.

 

[<eargiant]

Some of us are talking about how B&W Diamond tweeters have the big broad peak at 10kHz.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/kef-reference3-vs-b-w-804-d3.110591/page-3#post-1235754

The 805D has a +7dB peak at 10kHz. Some people may like the hot treble, but some people may not like that.

I'll still choose the 805D2 over the LS50 (and several other stand-mounts with peak or no peak) any day of the week.

 

[PENG]

I'll still choose the 805D2 over the LS50 (and several other stand-mounts with peak or no peak) any day of the week.

No surprise, that's why there are so many choices, so people can choose one over the others!!