Replacement decision on my Kef LS50

[Beave]

Again, I am not sure how to help you if the concept of bass frequencies who's wavelengths measure dozens of feet cannot fully propagate in a domestic living space. That is the cause of why sub frequencies, around about 80 hz, cannot be localized.

Whose, not who's.

Localization of sounds is related to the delay/phase as the sound hits one ear and the other. Thus it is related to the distance between our ears and to the wavelength of the sound wave. It is not related to the room dimensions as you keep claiming.

Similarly, a speaker's radpat depends on the speaker baffle dimensions and driver dimensions, not on the room dimensions as you claimed.

 

[Beave]

If your claim were correct, bass localization would differ by a good octave or so in differently sized rooms that still fall within reasonable size (say, 10x12x8 foot bedroom vs 18x20x14 foot living room). But it does not.

 

[TheWarrior]

Whose, not who's.

Localization of sounds is related to the delay/phase as the sound hits one ear and the other. Thus it is related to the distance between our ears and to the wavelength of the sound wave. It is not related to the room dimensions as you keep claiming.

Similarly, a speaker's radpat depends on the speaker baffle dimensions and driver dimensions, not on the room dimensions as you claimed.

I agree. Localization of sound is related to the phase of the frequency when it hits the ears. As such, if you are located near the half wave length, you won't hear it. Likewise, the frequencies WHOSE wavelengths are larger than the room induce standing waves which create areas of high and low pressure - which becomes a function of time - delay as you put it.

The size of a driver's diaphragm has nothing to do with anything in terms of bass frequencies. I cited the wavelengths because you continue to disregard them, as with that statement. By your logic, how could an 8 inch driver produce a 56.5 foot wavelength? My Scanspeak's do it with ease!

The baffle absolutely influences the wave launch, but that does not change the fact that as frequency increases, any loudspeaker gains a more forward bias, increase it's directivity - again, wavelength of a few inches down to less than inch is VERY directional.

If your claim were correct, bass localization would differ by a good octave or so in differently sized rooms that still fall within reasonable size (say, 10x12x8 foot bedroom vs 18x20x14 foot living room). But it does not.

Again, you are not asking complete questions. What claim? That bass is omni directional due to the wavelength relative to the dimensions of the room in which it is being propagated?

Rather than my repeating myself, why don't you explain how a frequency WHOSE wavelength measures dozens of feet in diameter fully propagates within a room of smaller dimensions? Why does that not induce standing waves between parallel boundaries creating high and low pressure regions?

 

[Beave]

Duck, weave, and....change the subject. It's a pattern with your posts.

 

[TheWarrior]

Duck, weave, and....change the subject. It's a pattern with your posts.

I covered everything I quoted from you in my last post. If you sought discussion, I've given it to you.

But considering the tone you seem to always have with me, I don't think you seek discussion, you just don't agree with what I have to say - Not a very good excuse to be rude!

 

[Beave]

I was simply questioning your statements, because they appeared incorrect to me.

It's not personal, and it's not about seeking discussion; it's about what's correct and what isn't.

 

[TheWarrior]

I was simply questioning your statements, because they appeared incorrect to me.

It's not personal, and it's not about seeking discussion; it's about what's correct and what isn't.

Then provide evidence of where I am wrong.

#43 I covered your statements, and decided to turn the tables and conclude with questions of my own in an effort to allow you to explain why my claims are wrong. You instead made it personal. Which is it?

 

[Beave]

"80 hz is a wise crossover frequency because, depending on the size of the room, the wavelength reaches a size where the bass signal stops being omni directional and gains forward bias with increasing frequency."

Wrong.

"Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room."

Wrong.

"Again, I am not sure how to help you if the concept of bass frequencies who's wavelengths measure dozens of feet cannot fully propagate in a domestic living space. That is the cause of why sub frequencies, around about 80 hz, cannot be localized."

Wrong.

 

[TheWarrior]

"80 hz is a wise crossover frequency because, depending on the size of the room, the wavelength reaches a size where the bass signal stops being omni directional and gains forward bias with increasing frequency."

Wrong.

"Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room."

Wrong.

"Again, I am not sure how to help you if the concept of bass frequencies who's wavelengths measure dozens of feet cannot fully propagate in a domestic living space. That is the cause of why sub frequencies, around about 80 hz, cannot be localized."

Wrong.

Aw thats cute, a "former EE" thinks I'm wrong but can't be bothered to explain why, or how.

Bye!

 

[Beave]

I agree. Localization of sound is related to the phase of the frequency when it hits the ears. As such, if you are located near the half wave length, you won't hear it. Likewise, the frequencies WHOSE wavelengths are larger than the room induce standing waves which create areas of high and low pressure - which becomes a function of time - delay as you put it.

Right...then another irrelevant side note that has no purpose other than to obfuscate.

The size of a driver's diaphragm has nothing to do with anything in terms of bass frequencies. I cited the wavelengths because you continue to disregard them, as with that statement. By your logic, how could an 8 inch driver produce a 56.5 foot wavelength? My Scanspeak's do it with ease!

The baffle absolutely influences the wave launch, but that does not change the fact that as frequency increases, any loudspeaker gains a more forward bias, increase it's directivity - again, wavelength of a few inches down to less than inch is VERY directional.

I never said otherwise. More obfuscation.

Again, you are not asking complete questions. What claim? That bass is omni directional due to the wavelength relative to the dimensions of the room in which it is being propagated?

Rather than my repeating myself, why don't you explain how a frequency WHOSE wavelength measures dozens of feet in diameter fully propagates within a room of smaller dimensions? Why does that not induce standing waves between parallel boundaries creating high and low pressure regions?

And more words not relevant to the issue at hand.

 

[Beave]

Aw thats cute, a "former EE" thinks I'm wrong but can't be bothered to explain why, or how.

Bye!

Because, as you halfway acknowledged yourself before trying to change the subject, localization is due to the distance between ears and not the dimensions of the room.

 

[Beave]

Aw thats cute, a "former EE" thinks I'm wrong but can't be bothered to explain why, or how.

Bye!

I already did. Post #41.

 

[ematthews]

So....... What’s you thoughts on the LS50 and maybe something to replace it?

 

[Beave]

So....... What’s you thoughts on the LS50 and maybe something to replace it?

I've never heard it!

 

[yepimonfire]

Hint's why I should NOT put the Klipsch RF 7-2 in my 10x12 room. Right?

Not without a sub.

I have a very similar sized room. (12x11). With the Rp-160m up front, and the mlp along the rear wall, I get a massive 12dB peak at 50hz, and obviously "sloppy" sounding ringing. Crossed over to a properly placed sub, it's pretty much flat +-5dB. If I place small speakers that roll off higher (for example, R-15Ms which roll off at 63hz anechoic), I can get a flat response down to about 47hz from the room mode essentially eqing the speaker lower, but why give up the entire bottom octave just to avoid room mode interactions?

There are other benefits to big speakers like the RF-7 besides just lower extension that you won't get with smaller speakers, like greater efficiency, which leads to lower distortion, less amplifier power requirements, and excellent dynamic range.

There's no replacement for displacement.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[KEW]

So....... What’s you thoughts on the LS50 and maybe something to replace it?

Where do you get off making such a random post?

 

[Steve81]

Similarly, a speaker's radpat depends on the speaker baffle dimensions and driver dimensions, not on the room dimensions as you claimed.

*cough* baffle step *cough*

 

[TheWarrior]

*cough* baffle step *cough*

Here, try a video:

26:40 "At low frequencies, it's omni directional"

Baffle step is relevant to loudspeaker design, but both you and Beave are ignoring/denying the contributions of the room in which the speaker is playing.

#43 "I agree. Localization of sound is related to the phase of the frequency when it hits the ears. As such, if you are located near the half wave length, you won't hear it. Likewise, the frequencies WHOSE wavelengths are larger than the room induce standing waves which create areas of high and low pressure - which becomes a function of time - delay as you put it."

I expanded on and agreed with what Beave said, and he chose to discredit it. I offered discussion which is beneficial to the forum, and even you, a moderator, encouraged his disrespectful discourse.

Apologies to @ematthews for the thread jack. The only downside with Floyd's research is that much of it flies in the face of conventional thinking about speakers and about room acoustics. But it's firmly rooted in science, making it repeatable.

If you, or anyone, took acoustic measurements of their room, as well as physical measurements of the boundaries of the room and calculated the modal frequencies, you would find peaks and dips that correspond to those frequencies WHOSE wavelength match the dimensions of the physical boundaries - Room Modes. I cite that to prove the control the room has, which seems to be the sticking point in this silly debate.

 

[Steve81]

Baffle step is relevant to loudspeaker design, but both you and Beave are ignoring/denying the contributions of the room in which the speaker is playing.

We're ignoring it because it's not relevant to your original statement:

Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room.

1131fps/80 hz = 14 feet

The omnidirectional output of low frequencies from a loudspeaker is a wholly separate issue from the dimensions of the room, and the contributions thereof. Baffle step concerns the transition from a 2pi (hemispherical) radiation to a 4pi (spherical) pattern. IOW, it's about the point where a speaker becomes omnidirectional.

 

[<eargiant]

So....... What’s you thoughts on the LS50 and maybe something to replace it?

Spring for a pair of used Bowers & Wilkins 805D2. You will be in stand-mount heaven and get off the merry-go-round.