Red-Haired Shanks Build Thread

fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Very cool project. I can't wait to see the rest of the data and tweaks once you get a quiet day.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
So guys, I'm finally satisfied with the crossover after a few different iterations. It's still 6th order centered around the same area, although just about everything is different about it this time around. I doubt it'd be obvious from the graph so I won't bore you with the details.

One thing I found from listening is that as simulated, they sounded great and neutral already. However on brass and percussion, I found them to just sound that "little bit" more realistic with the tweeter a decibel louder than the previous model. A few reasons this might be the case are:

1) Our ears are probably ever-so-slightly off the tweeter axis, causing some ever-so-slight attenuation
2) It's still pretty damn flat!
3) Baffle step losses may only be about 5db instead of 6db and there's actually some broad baffle diffraction gain below the crossover region that can't be modelled accurately
4) this room has its share lot of HF absorptive surfaces including couches galore

So given that tweeter level adjustment, here's what I end up with:



The reverse null (at the microphone position) looks satisfactory too and shows that the crossover point is almost exactly 850hz while maintaining inter-driver phase tracking:



We adjusted their placement to be much wider apart than they were earlier (we'll figure out cable management later. Everything here is a work in progress) Also those big batts of rock wool on the front wall are to be covered in cloth):



So, my impressions?

First of all, these speakers do require some distance for the drivers to properly converge into a single apparent source. (I would say over 2m minimum) Once you've gotten far enough away though, driver integration is perfect. So here I go:

- these speakers throw a massive soundstage. It's extremely wide, and deep. Perhaps not as infinitely deep as my open-back Philharmonics, but deep enough that there is very obvious front-to-back layering. It never feels artificially "enlarged" however, and vertically they avoid that awkward "mouth the size of a room" feeling I've heard from other loudspeakers (which I've "possibly" attributed to the effects of odd-order crossovers - this is one of the few speakers of this type that uses even-order slopes and that was very intentional)

- imaging is both pin-point and diffuse as recordings call for. When you close your eyes, the speakers simply disappear in my opinion. And I haven't even gotten the SEOS-baffle on yet, which in theory will allow the wavefront a better termination.

- yes, the ~14.5 inch paper cone of the TD15M does occasionally "smooth out" a bit of the midrange character ever-so-slightly compared to the probably "flawless" razor-sharp mids of the 8" SB woofer and BG Neo8 planar in my Philharmonics. But make no mistake, it's an extremely resolving and otherwise natural sound... i wouldn't be shocked if in a room full of 100 people, fifty pick the smoother TD15M sound and fifty pick the "quieter" Neo8 sound as sounding more "accurate". In this particular case, I do personally prefer the Neo8 sound. It's also possible that parts of what I'm hearing could be attributed to the tweeter, whose 2nd order harmonic distortion rises below 1khz (which perceptual research shows is not an actual issue even if it's audible)

- the BA 750 is an amazing tweeter. It required a lot of active response shaping for me to get what I wanted out of it - I'm not sure it'd be worthwhile to use it passively if ruler flat frequency response is the end-goal. I had to boost its response a bit in the crossover region to get my desired transfer function and I imagine anyone letting the driver speak to it would find its response suggesting a crossover point an octave higher. But that would have defeated the purpose of this whole design, between avoiding driver breakup, using the compression driver's low frequency advantage, and getting the desires off-axis response.

So how do the driver's highs sound? Beautiful. Cymbals decay instantly and have a feathery nature to them. Xylophones sound organic and aren't missing a thing. Flutes, Violins, Violas... everything sounds excellent to my ears. Anyone trying to convince you compression drivers are not high fidelity... is just wrong. Now, does the RAAL in my Phils have a better top octave? Yes, I actually believe it does. But do I care? I'm not sure I do. It's true that sometimes we get caught up overthinking drivers in the frequency extremes. I've stated in the past that even though my sub is ruler flat to below 20hz, I could high pass my system at 100hz and still be really damn happy. It's the same thing here. The top octave on the BA is inoffensive, and everything else sounds clean, sharp, all that good stuff. It's never fatuiging to listen to, and don't even worry for a moment about preconceived notions of horn honk. There were actually some instances today where certain high-pitched voices in something we were watching on TV made me "prepare to cringe" and then I was just left stunned at how I didn't flinch at all. I think an honest argument COULD be made that this driver sounds as good as any out there below 10khz. That said I made sure to notch out a low-amplitude, but very-high Q peak centered at 8700hz (in my crossover design and I'd hope anyone working with this driver keeps that in mind.

- the lack of power compression sounds incredible. I've never thought of my Phils as being difficult to listen to loud - and I still don't - but these speakers are easier to listen to on very dynamic source material. The narrow directivity and high efficiency, as well as insignificant driver motion all lead to an amazing effect that has to be heard to be understood.


- What does all of the above mean? These speakers kick hella ass and had me grinning from ear to ear.
 
Last edited:
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Out of all that work, techno mumbo jumbo and text all I see is the mineral wool. Puh-lease don't bounce that sh!t around. Get it outside to cover it.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for a finish. Next summer you say? Okay tiger boy II. :)
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Who cares what they sound like, get to ordering the veneer already, :D something sexy like macassar ebony or brazillian rosewood, or maybe Bubinga {I have a guitar in that that is pretty sexy...}...
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Who cares what they sound like, get to ordering the veneer already, :D something sexy like macassar ebony or brazillian rosewood, or maybe Bubinga {I have a guitar in that that is pretty sexy...}...
or at least spray paint them for god sake :)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Okay tiger boy II. :)
Libel!!! I ain't that slow!!!!!

Who cares what they sound like, get to ordering the veneer already, :D something sexy like macassar ebony or brazillian rosewood, or maybe Bubinga {I have a guitar in that that is pretty sexy...}...
These speakers are short/fat speakers. Bubinga would just make them look fatter. Macassar Ebony or maybe Zebrawood are definitely an option though, if the grains are aligned vertically as that would make them appear thinner and taller (optical illusion, sure, but I'm cool with that). If anyone wants to donate me some nice veneer, I'm all for it :p :D That's all for the sides though and I might just go the BSA-suggested route and spray paint them in a dark glossy lacquer.

For the front baffle I will be using the natural grain of the ply (it's really pretty close-up) and dying it with the Bright Red Transtint that Natrix mentioned in his thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Libel!!! I ain't that slow!!!!!



These speakers are short/fat speakers. Bubinga would just make them look fatter. Macassar Ebony or maybe Zebrawood are definitely an option though, if the grains are aligned vertically as that would make them appear thinner and taller (optical illusion, sure, but I'm cool with that). If anyone wants to donate me some nice veneer, I'm all for it :p :D That's all for the sides though and I might just go the BSA-suggested route and spray paint them in a dark glossy lacquer.

For the front baffle I will be using the natural grain of the ply (it's really pretty close-up) and dying it with the Bright Red Transtint that Natrix mentioned in his thread.
Well my speakers have been making sound all summer. :D
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Libel!!! I ain't that slow!!!!!
Not as slow as me. I've had a soundsplinter orphan 8 since early october 2011. I've been meaning to use it and make a sub for the car but it's just been gathering dust in my closet for quite some time now.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Awesome job! Glad to hear you emphasize their outrageous dynamic range and imaging prowess. (Yes, folks, horns can image quite well when set up properly.) That "smoothed out midrange" could be due to less IM distortion than a smaller driver could hope to achieve, combined with narrowing coverage as frequencies go up giving more direct and less reflected sound.

You going to drag them outside to measure polars by any chance? I would love to see those.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Awesome job! Glad to hear you emphasize their outrageous dynamic range and imaging prowess. (Yes, folks, horns can image quite well when set up properly.)
Fwiw, I'm not going to exaggerate the dynamics. The term i'd prefer to use is "composure". I've heard bookshelves in that same room, same track just completely fall apart two feet away. My Phils hold their composure extremely well too but you start to experience the room influence flattening the image. These speakers do it as well, but seem to maintain a sense of layering in the image simultaneously. I don't listen loud enough where I have ever heard the Philharmonic 2s audibly strain (granted, I have a powerful amp driving them) - If I had to be 100% honest with you I would attribute my experience mostly to the narrow dispersion rather than to the extreme capabilities of the compression driver or the high efficiency. Now that said, we were powering a single one of these off of a fifteen watt T-amp one day for fun and it got to ear-bleed levels. So why use a compression driver at all? Because it gets very low with minimal excursion and it loads the correct wavefront for an 18" waveguide. Ultimately I think the perception of "dynamics" are as much a function of the "imaging" as they are of the driver capabilities.

By the way, i wanted to point out that the SEOS itself is not a true horn. The only part of the system that is "horn"y is the compression chamber of the tweeter, but what it loads into afterwards does not influence its impedance or affect its diaphragm excursion. A true horn would boost output down to the cutoff frequency by creating a pressure mismatch - such a thing is not required in-home in my opinion. The SEOS is much shallower than a horn, with virtually no "throat" section. Wayne Parham's H290 and Earl Geddes' Oblate Spheroid waveguide are similar in that they both use catenary curves and neither has a true horn-loading to boost the low end.

Now there are some interesting modern horns out there too - the Azura Horn 550 and Iwata 300 for example. They are not constant directivity - directivity narrows as frequency rises and therefore there is only a single sweet spot - but they have their merits too. These will provide TRUE horn loading of the diaphragm.

That "smoothed out midrange" could be due to less IM distortion than a smaller driver could hope to achieve, combined with narrowing coverage as frequencies go up giving more direct and less reflected sound.
Maybe. It could just be a more accurate window to the recording. It's tough to say what's better without a better analysis of what it objectively is.

You going to drag them outside to measure polars by any chance? I would love to see those.
Of course I am. But because the baffle effects especially and possibly reticulated foam may affect the polars, there's no point doing so until after those are finished - they're by no means aesthetic only. And since we're probably going to get 5cm of snow today, it seems construction season has ended and winter has begun here. Technically I could do indoor polars - but I won't.
 
Last edited:
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks for the clarification on the horn/waveguide distinction...I'm pretty well versed, but who knows who else is tuning in to this broadcast. I like the publicity you're providing here, big speakers rule. Your thread may even inspire me to get off my lazy butt and actually finish a DIY project.

I'm still a SEOS virgin, but have heard some rather fantastic controlled/constant directivity rigs, best probably being Klipsch Jubilee two ways running the 402 up top, decidedly more constant and controlled directivity in design. Kinda huge, but that goes with the territory.

I'm sure you're familiar with Bill Waslo's handy guide for imaging with waveguide speakers (linky for the benefit of any lurkers).
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I like the publicity you're providing here, big speakers rule.
The SEOS is obviously popular on AVS but I think it deserves its share of discussion here too, because it's that good. We care a bit more about music than just explosions and LFE, but that will not preclude this kind of build if aesthetics permit and the design is good.

Your thread may even inspire me to get off my lazy butt and actually finish a DIY project.

I'm still a SEOS virgin, but have heard some rather fantastic controlled/constant directivity rigs, best probably being Klipsch Jubilee two ways running the 402 up top, decidedly more constant and controlled directivity in design. Kinda huge, but that goes with the territory.
Definitely get yourself on a SEOS build!

...I'm thinking Jeff Bagby's Zephyr with the Definimax 12 and SEOS-12! or Maybe Ryan Bouma's Elusive 1099 three-ways. Do itttttttt.

....But no SETs allowed. If you insist on tubes, well-designed Pentodes!

I'm sure you're familiar with Bill Waslo's handy guide for imaging with waveguide speakers (linky for the benefit of any lurkers).
As you said it could be of benefit to lurkers. It's actually a reiteration of what Geddes, Parham, Duke LeJeune, ZilchLab, AJinFLA have advocated for years, except Bill wrote it very clearly so anyone could kind of understand.

If you look at some of the Audiokinesis speakers, the crossfire is actually built into the speaker:



You'll also notice the massive chamfer. This is mostly what I wanted to do with my build, but I didn't have the woodworking tools/ skill / patience to pull it off.
 
Last edited:
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top