Record cleaning question

[slipperybidness]

I used them once. They were terribly streaky. I went right back to just using a slightly damp microfiber followed up by a dry microfiber to clean my TV and computer screens.

This is the best screen cleaning material that I have found, the same company that makes the really good De-Oxit contact cleaners, etc. I couldn't seem to find what is in it quickly (but no ammonia and no alcohol). Going by memory, I "think" it is just DI water and a surfactant, which is the ideal cleaning solution in many cases.

Home

CAIG CCS-503 DeoxIT Screen Cleaner Kit with Microfiber Cloth 22 oz.CAIG DeoxIT® screen cleaner is specially formulated to create an anti-static, dust repelling layer over your LCD, plasma, or rear-projection HDTV, as well as CRT and flat panel computer monitors and touch screen cell phones...

www.parts-express.com

 

[NINaudio]

This is the best screen cleaning material that I have found, the same company that makes the really good De-Oxit contact cleaners, etc. I couldn't seem to find what is in it quickly (but no ammonia and no alcohol). Going by memory, I "think" it is just DI water and a surfactant, which is the ideal cleaning solution in many cases.

Home

CAIG CCS-503 DeoxIT Screen Cleaner Kit with Microfiber Cloth 22 oz.CAIG DeoxIT® screen cleaner is specially formulated to create an anti-static, dust repelling layer over your LCD, plasma, or rear-projection HDTV, as well as CRT and flat panel computer monitors and touch screen cell phones...

www.parts-express.com

Yeah, straight up DI water is my go to for most glass/screen cleanings.

 

[Swerd]

@Squishman another problem is that old fingerprints dry off and you can't get them off. As Swerd said; sticky and mixed with dust. I washed an old record several times only to be able to see the prints exactly where they were and with no audible improvements.

I think some of these harder cases ask for some soaking time, but for that, first and foremost you have to have a label protecting cover.
View attachment 39473
And you have to find the right detergent that won't damage the vinyl but will react with grease and dissolve it.

Dried finger or palm prints will need longer soaking times, warmer water temperatures (within reason), or both. Added energy, in the form of mechanical scrubbing, is best applied using an ultrasonic cleaning bath. With ultrasonic cleaning, it can take seconds to dissolve dried finger/palm prints. Without it, hours.

No detergent is capable of damaging vinyl. This includes detergents with a caustic alkaline pH, such as electric dishwasher detergents or lab detergents like Alconox. They are aggressive enough to remove glued-on labels from records, they will seriously dry out the skin on your hands, but they cannot harm the vinyl.

Soaking records in alcohol can work, but it will not work better than detergents.

With any detergent, it is critically important to avoid using too much detergent, and after washing, to thoroughly rinse off all detergent. To start, use only very little concentrated detergent when you mix it with water. I use 1 or 2 drops of liquid dish washing detergent added to a gallon of water. If the water becomes visibly sudsy, you've added too much detergent.

After washing, rinse with water, two or three rinses. You must not let any detergent remain on the record's surface. It will only provide more opportunities for dust to stick.

After the final water rinse, I find it useful to spray on a 3 parts water/1 part alcohol mix. A simple plant sprayer works well for this. Use either ethanol or isopropanol. Alcohol mixtures sold as "denatured alcohol" are also OK for this. Water alone can bead up on a record's surface as it dries. The water/alcohol mix prevents beading and allows the record to dry faster. You don't need to spray on much volume to prevent water beads.

 

[Swerd]

This is the best screen cleaning material that I have found, the same company that makes the really good De-Oxit contact cleaners, etc. I couldn't seem to find what is in it quickly (but no ammonia and no alcohol). Going by memory, I "think" it is just DI water and a surfactant, which is the ideal cleaning solution in many cases.

Home

CAIG CCS-503 DeoxIT Screen Cleaner Kit with Microfiber Cloth 22 oz.CAIG DeoxIT® screen cleaner is specially formulated to create an anti-static, dust repelling layer over your LCD, plasma, or rear-projection HDTV, as well as CRT and flat panel computer monitors and touch screen cell phones...

www.parts-express.com

Those screen cleaning materials, either spray-on or wipe-on, will break up visible finger prints. When it dries, the finger print grease remains spread out evenly, or not so evenly streaked, on the screen. As long as the finger prints aren't visible on a screen, it looks clean.

With records, that isn't good enough. Those greases, and any dust mixed in, must be physically removed from the record grooves.

 

[slipperybidness]

With any detergent, it is critically important to avoid using too much detergent, and after washing, to thoroughly rinse off all detergent. To start, use only very little concentrated detergent when you mix it with water. I use 1 or 2 drops of liquid dish washing detergent added to a gallon of water. If the water becomes visibly sudsy, you've added too much detergent.

I'm pretty sure we have discussed this in a previous thread.

But, you are absolutely correct, and GOOD POINT to remind everyone about!

Pretty much "everyone" uses way too much detergent! All that does is create waste, while not being any better at cleaning and making residue more likely.

Most people just don't realize, you don't need much detergent. ALL you need is a high enough concentration to hit the Critical Micelle Concentration (CMC), and anything beyond that is waste.

Critical micelle concentration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[slipperybidness]

@Swerd
@NINaudio

Only a dork/nerd (i.e. scientist) would be so interested in the mechanics of detergent action! LOL

 

[Swerd]

I'm pretty sure we have discussed this in a previous thread.

Yes, a number of years ago when I stumbled onto the idea of using an ultrasonic cleaner with a large bath to clean records. That's when I learned you were the only other person on AH who understood what CMC meant.

I never did follow up on that idea. Ultrasonic cleaners with baths large enough for LPs were too expensive. Even though I have a bunch of older records, I wasn't about to spend that much cash on cleaning them. They weren't that dirty.

Only a dork/nerd (i.e. scientist) would be so interested in the mechanics of detergent action! LOL

That would be Dr. Dork/Nerd to you .

I was a grad student in a biochemistry department where a number of the faculty were studying membrane bound proteins of various kinds. Detergent action on phospholipid membranes containing proteins was very important for that. I remember an exam where a major question involved detergents and how they work. I nailed it. Starting at that point, the faculty started treating me as if they might let me stay in the program.

 

[Squishman]

@Squishman another problem is that old fingerprints dry off and you can't get them off. As Swerd said; sticky and mixed with dust. I washed an old record several times only to be able to see the prints exactly where they were and with no audible improvements.

I think some of these harder cases ask for some soaking time, but for that, first and foremost you have to have a label protecting cover.
View attachment 39473
And you have to find the right detergent that won't damage the vinyl but will react with grease and dissolve it.

It is sooooo steam-punk!

Killdozer, Ron, the guy at Vinyl Vac has very detailed instructions on how to make a lazy susan for cleaning and it includes a screw-on label protector with a gasket. He tells you where to get the parts and the part numbers. Just awesome. I followed the instructions and it works great. Makes cleaning records fun, knowing that I am doing something really great for my hobby. I also got a new small wet/dry vac, so I am not dragging my huge one into the house. His cleaner is alcohol-free and mixes with distilled water. I do not believe any of my records are beyond cleaning. I did toss one that was warped super bad. Not sure why I still had it, since no way was I going to play it. Funny, now with that one gone, I don't even have any that are even slightly warped.
edit: I also got the new, small vac because no way did I want to use an actual old one for this process.

 

[NINaudio]

@Swerd
@NINaudio

Only a dork/nerd (i.e. scientist) would be so interested in the mechanics of detergent action! LOL

Guilty as charged! Worked as a chemist, schooled as a biologist and as a physicist.

 

[John Parks]

 

[slipperybidness]

Guilty as charged! Worked as a chemist, schooled as a biologist and as a physicist.

I am educated as a chemist (one of the best universities for this field), 18 years as an industrial analytical chemist (3 years in refineries and such, 15 years semiconductors), and have personal interests in astronomy and electronics! Just a few more classes and I would have associates degree and could be a certified electronics technician, but I have pretty much abandoned this track for now (just too many other priorities have taken over).

When we get into the high level chemistry and instrumental analysis, it all comes together as we take chemical molecules and convert that into an electrical analytical signal, and use quantum mechanical transitions to generate analytical signals.

From what I can tell, seems like you may be in your ideal job for your education too! Which is NEVER a given for any field.

Fun Stuff!

There is absolutely NEVER a dull moment at my job, ALWAYS high level problems to solve that often take the resources of engineers and labs. The story is ALWAYS told in the data, you just have to understand what the data is telling you, or determine that you don't have the right data to tell the full story.

 

[slipperybidness]

That would be Dr. Dork/Nerd to you .

I was a grad student in a biochemistry department where a number of the faculty were studying membrane bound proteins of various kinds. Detergent action on phospholipid membranes containing proteins was very important for that. I remember an exam where a major question involved detergents and how they work. I nailed it. Starting at that point, the faculty started treating me as if they might let me stay in the program.

Bazinga! My mistake, Dr. LOL. You know the routine, since I belong to the group, I'm allowed to call out other nerds.

Yeah, you obviously have more understanding and education on the topic than me.

This topic hit my radar in my Macromolecular (Polymer) class. One of the few classes I had that was a mix of grad and undergrad students, and it was a very interesting class indeed.

It's one of those things that I seriously never even thought about before. Hey, "soap cleans stuff, duh". But when you dig in, there is an amazing amount of science and thermodynamics at play for something that "seems so simple".

On a similar topic, I have learned a LOT about high quality filters and filtration in the semiconductor industry, where ultra clean and pure materials are paramount. There is a LOT of science and thermo, and research in filtration technology. The reality is, filters are much more interesting and complex than anyone would realize that has not studied the topic.

One other key detail on that very same Polymer class--One day the prof was out and he had a colleague come lecture the class about his research, which JUST HAPPENED to be OLED tech! This was right around 2001 or so, so we are talking about 20 years back. His lecture and his vision of the future of OLED absolutely blew my mind! Pulled a small OLED panel out of his pocket and demonstrated how it could be rolled up without damage, and lectured on how an off the shelf ink jet printer can be modified to produce OLED screens.

Ever since that day, I have been biding my time until large panels could be produced reliably and cheaply enough for the common man to afford. When I had an opportunity to finally get an LG C8 OLED 65" for ~$1750, I jumped on it!

 

[WookieGR]

I suggest this before every listen:

 

[Ponzio]

Here's the other method he mentioned.

Wouldn't it just be easier to get the CD?

Just sayin'

 

[slipperybidness]

Here's the other method he mentioned.

Wouldn't it just be easier to get the CD?

Just sayin'

WHOA....that's crazy talk right there!

Heck, nowadays, most NEW vinyl releases come with a code to download high quality tracks too.

I am pretty much format agnostic.

I like vinyl for what it is, and the pack-ins (posters, old sales fliers, etc), and I like to dig through the crates at the record shops. I like streaming for the huge library in a small space and the ease of access. I like CDs for the no-brainer high quality and robustness of a physical format, I also like CDs as used CDs tend to be dirt cheap today.

I do not like magnetic tapes!

 

[Swerd]

I suggest this before every listen:

Before every listen? Did you skip the part in the video where he let the glue dry overnight?

The guy in those videos does a good job explaining and demonstrating methods I've often heard of. He seems to be good at fabricating things and seems to have good hands in general.

There is one problem with the wood glue method. What does it leave behind in the record groove? Does it remove all the finger print grease and dust, or only some of it? With the detergent method, we know for certain that it can dissolve and remove all the finger print grease. If you rinse it well enough, you can be confident that the record is clean. We simply don't know if the wood glue method works as well.

With new records, or properly handled old records, the wood glue or detergent wash methods are rarely, if ever, needed. These extreme methods are needed to clean old, mishandled records. They are far too time consuming and messy to be done on a regular basis.

 

[slipperybidness]

Before every listen? Did you skip the part in the video where he let the glue dry overnight?

The guy in those videos does a good job explaining and demonstrating methods I've often heard of. He seems to be good at fabricating things and seems to have good hands in general.

There is one problem with the wood glue method. What does it leave behind in the record groove? Does it remove all the finger print grease and dust, or only some of it? With the detergent method, we know for certain that it can dissolve and remove all the finger print grease. If you rinse it well enough, you can be confident that the record is clean. We simply don't know if the wood glue method works as well.

With new records, or properly handled old records, the wood glue or detergent wash methods are rarely, if ever, needed. These extreme methods are needed to clean old, mishandled records. They are far too time consuming and messy to be done on a regular basis.

Right!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The best approach is to properly handle your vinyl and never get to this situation!

A good majority of my vinyl has been in my possession since my college days in the late 90s. I certainly did not take proper care of my vinyl back then, listening at parties, etc. So, it NEEDED cleaning to get back into a good condition. But, a lot of that stuff is now hard to find on vinyl, and it is worth more than I paid for it back in the day when CD just took over as media king! I leave most of the price tags on my vinyl, and some of it is just silly how low I paid ($0.99 in some cases for a few of my favorite vinyl, and $4.99 was very common). It also helps that the shop I used to frequent most (Sound Exchange), right across the street from campus, specialized in punk rock and indie/underground groups, so anything like folk/americana/hip-hop/mainstream/etc went for stupid cheap prices just to get it out the door.

Today, when I buy vinyl, I'm not too concerned if it is dirty because I know how to reliably clean it. As long as there are not deep scratches nor too many surface scratches, I'm not worried about it. And, in some cases, showing the clerk a dirty record may be able to let me negotiate a few dollars off the price, and at least the local shop has one of the automated vac cleaning machines, so they can easily be persuaded for a free cleaning before I leave.

 

[killdozzer]

Dried finger or palm prints will need longer soaking times, warmer water temperatures (within reason), or both. Added energy, in the form of mechanical scrubbing, is best applied using an ultrasonic cleaning bath. With ultrasonic cleaning, it can take seconds to dissolve dried finger/palm prints. Without it, hours.

No detergent is capable of damaging vinyl. This includes detergents with a caustic alkaline pH, such as electric dishwasher detergents or lab detergents like Alconox. They are aggressive enough to remove glued-on labels from records, they will seriously dry out the skin on your hands, but they cannot harm the vinyl.

Soaking records in alcohol can work, but it will not work better than detergents.

With any detergent, it is critically important to avoid using too much detergent, and after washing, to thoroughly rinse off all detergent. To start, use only very little concentrated detergent when you mix it with water. I use 1 or 2 drops of liquid dish washing detergent added to a gallon of water. If the water becomes visibly sudsy, you've added too much detergent.

After washing, rinse with water, two or three rinses. You must not let any detergent remain on the record's surface. It will only provide more opportunities for dust to stick.

After the final water rinse, I find it useful to spray on a 3 parts water/1 part alcohol mix. A simple plant sprayer works well for this. Use either ethanol or isopropanol. Alcohol mixtures sold as "denatured alcohol" are also OK for this. Water alone can bead up on a record's surface as it dries. The water/alcohol mix prevents beading and allows the record to dry faster. You don't need to spray on much volume to prevent water beads.

I didn't know about your education in biochemistry. You might even know an answer to a very strange situation I ran into. The bubble wrap left marks on a dry, transparent car lacquer. A piece of furniture was wrapped into bubble wrap while being sent. The choice of car lacquer was on account of gloss and some other properties. It dried for 7 days and should have been hard enough to be wrapped in bubble wrap plastic. It wasn't laying heavy on the wrap as it had stands and support. But it left marks. It looks more like some sort of reaction between the wrap and the lacquer.

But it wasn't the plain bubble wrap that came first and we all probably know the best. It was with much larger bubbles and softer plastic:

The traces

 

[WookieGR]

Before every listen? Did you skip the part in the video where he let the glue dry overnight?

The guy in those videos does a good job explaining and demonstrating methods I've often heard of. He seems to be good at fabricating things and seems to have good hands in general.

There is one problem with the wood glue method. What does it leave behind in the record groove? Does it remove all the finger print grease and dust, or only some of it? With the detergent method, we know for certain that it can dissolve and remove all the finger print grease. If you rinse it well enough, you can be confident that the record is clean. We simply don't know if the wood glue method works as well.

With new records, or properly handled old records, the wood glue or detergent wash methods are rarely, if ever, needed. These extreme methods are needed to clean old, mishandled records. They are far too time consuming and messy to be done on a regular basis.

I'm sorry you took that seriously. You have my condolences.

 

[Swerd]

You might even know an answer to a very strange situation I ran into. The bubble wrap left marks on a dry, transparent car lacquer. A piece of furniture was wrapped into bubble wrap while being sent. The choice of car lacquer was on account of gloss and some other properties. It dried for 7 days and should have been hard enough to be wrapped in bubble wrap plastic. It wasn't laying heavy on the wrap as it had stands and support. But it left marks. It looks more like some sort of reaction between the wrap and the lacquer.

But it wasn't the plain bubble wrap that came first and we all probably know the best. It was with much larger bubbles and softer plastic:
View attachment 39509

The traces
View attachment 39510

I know little about plastics and less about car lacquer. My guess is that the chemicals that keep plastics soft, the so-called plasticizers, leeched out of the bubble wrap, into the lacquer.

First try rubbing the surface of lacquer with a water/cleanser solution with an alkaline pH of 9 or 10. If you have an automatic dishwasher, try dissolving some powdered dishwasher detergent in water. If you stick your hand in that solution it should feel very slippery on your skin. If you don't have dishwasher detergent, try something called 'sudsy ammonia' (in the USA).

Have two bowls ready, one with the alkaline wash, and the other with water to rinse the stuff off before it dries.

If that doesn't work, I'm out of ideas. Sand and refinish the furniture.