Recommendations for an Apartment System

[gsforfree]

Hi there,

I'm looking for some sound to add to my current setup:

Sony KDL-46VL130 (I think)
PS3 (netflix streaming included)
Streaming from the PC via Tversity

The room is approx 21' by 12' and is open to the rest of the apartment (see floor plan below). The kitchen is actually open.

My budget is 500-700 and I probably don't need many HDMI inputs, but would like iPod functionality.

image is available: drop.io/enw0usv/asset/untitled-jpg

 

[skers_54]

With that budget, I would suggest a Pioneer VSX-819 (HDMI and IPOD connectivity), 2 sets of Behringer 2030P and a Dayton SUB-120. That should come to $250 + $250 + $150 = $650. Get your cables from Monoprice.com. Yeah, I'm only recommending 4 speakers but another pair would put you over budget. The Behringers work very well with a phantom center (which means the info from the center is sent to the left and right speakers) and adding a center could be tricky depending on how your TV sits.

My room is set up similarly and I think this system would work nicely. Good luck!

 

[sholling]

If it were my home I'd go with a 3.1 system - left center right, plus a sub. 3.1 because you can always add surrounds later when you have saved up more money. Perhaps take a listen to 3 of the TSC TSAT-2400 on-wall speakers. I have not listened to these but they have them on sale for $119ea with free shipping, a 30 trial, and free return shipping if you don't like them. TSC has a decent reputation. Add their subwoofer for $227. The problem is that at $585 for nice 3.1 set of speakers it doesn't leave a lot of room for a fancy receiver.

Alternately you could go with Energy's Take 5.0 bookshelf speakers, and a decent subwoofer. This matching Energy Take subwoofer would be about the minimum but since it fires downward I would only use it if no one was below me. That leaves enough money for a refurbished Onkyo TX-SR607. Total under $700 with Monoprice.com cables. Add the iPod dock later. Review of the Take 5.1 system.

 

[valeriekee6368]

Where do you guys normally buy this stuff? Any recommendation? i am staying in NY

 

[gsforfree]

Accidental double post

 

[gsforfree]

Alternately you could go with LINK REMOVED bookshelf speakers, and a decent subwoofer. This matching LINK REMOVED would be about the minimum but since it fires downward I would only use it if no one was below me. That leaves enough money for a refurbished LINK REMOVED. Total under $700 with Monoprice.com cables. Add the LINK REMOVED later. LINK REMOVED of the Take 5.1 system.

The take 5.1 is available for only $399, but the downfiring sub may be an issue. If I go with the 5.0 (for $149), should I be (i) concerned about the low price as a reflection of quality (review tells me not to be) and (2) be budgeting a bit more for a sub?

I think i'll be able to find a receiver for a good price, especially with a lot of the holiday deals going on.

Additionally, do I have to buy stands from the manufacturer, or are 3rd party stands available?

Thanks for all the help everybody!

 

[sholling]

The take 5.1 is available for only $399, but the downfiring sub may be an issue. If I go with the 5.0 (for $149), should I be (i) concerned about the low price as a reflection of quality (review tells me not to be) and (2) be budgeting a bit more for a sub?

I think i'll be able to find a receiver for a good price, especially with a lot of the holiday deals going on.

Additionally, do I have to buy stands from the manufacturer, or are 3rd party stands available?

Thanks for all the help everybody!

The limitation is your budget. I like to approach budget constrained implementations as a long term project. I pick the very best pieces that I can afford but just do a little at a time as things go on sale. That's why I suggested starting with the best 3.0 or 3.1 system you can afford and adding bits as money becomes available. Keep in mind that 100% of music comes from the L&R front speakers, and 90% of movie material comes from the L&R&C front speakers. That's why I suggested putting your money up front for now and then add surrounds when money allows.

As far as small inexpensive 5.1 systems go I've heard the Take system but I don't own it. It sounded good for a $400 system but I think it will run out of steam pushed to high volumes in a large room. Another option for small satellites is Klipsch's Quintet system (mini-review) combined with a decent sub like the TSC would sound pretty good. I used the Quintets in my bedroom for a year or so and the Quintets are some of the best small satellites that I've listened to. I just gravitate to larger more full range speakers. Typical of tiny satellites neither the Quintets or the Take 5 can reach below 120hz. That means that the subwoofer is carrying a big chunk of the sonic load for both music and TV instead of just filling in lows. That's why I like the larger on-wall speakers, larger bookshelf speakers, and floorstanders. The two larger speaker systems that I've listed go down to 60hz making the the transition to the sub sound a bit more seamless. The thing to keep in mind about speakers is they are very subjective. A receiver is a receiver and you buy based on features (including power). For the most part they sound the same to everyone. Speakers on the other hand are highly subjective. What I might like you may love or you may hate. If you decide to go with either small satellites then I'd go down to a local store and listen for yourself. See which floats your boat. Just make sure that the store's source's tone controls are set flat while you compare.

As I've said if it were me I'd buy three good speakers and a receiver. Let's look at a couple of ideas. The first being the budget buster 3.1 system that I laid out in my earlier post. That includes a side firing sub. I have the little brother of that sub in my bedroom. It (review) may sound not sound like a $500 sub below 30hz but it has great gobs of power and is probably the best thing you'll find for $227.

IF you had the budget (and you don't) I would buy three of these Energy FPS on-wall speakers instead of the TSCs but 3 of the Energies (with a low cost sub) eats up your entire budget.

If you cannot wall mount then another option is to use full range towers and forgo the subwoofer. Based entirely on this review and their easy return policy I'd consider a pair of THC TST2 floor standers plus a matched center. TSC is out of stock right now but will hopefully get some in soon. I'd spend some time in stores listing to other options.

As for where to buy. I've done business with every shop I've linked. I bought a refurbished Onkyo receiver for my master bedroom from Accessories For Less, I'm a regular customer at Newegg, I've bought from World Wide Stereo twice. I've ordered subs from TSC twice (for my master bedroom and my home-office), I bought my big Onkyo TX-NR906 from Amazon.com, I've bought stuff from Vanns, and I buy all of my cables and TV wall mounts from Monoprice.com. I've had good experiences with each and every one of them. Just keep in mind that some have restocking fees.

As far as stands I can't do more than point you to a tread and this thread on AVSForums about how others have stand mounted their Quintets.

 

[gsforfree]

Perhaps take a listen to 3 of the TSC TSAT-2400 on-wall speakers.

If I can't mount the speakers on the wall (my TV is on a console stand) would I be able to stand them up next to the TV?

 

[adwilk]

I would definitely look at TSC, but not the on wall stuff. They make some pretty decent bookshelfs that I would go with. The Behringer 2030P is also a good option. You might also consider the EMP bookshelf. You could actually get the towers and a decent receiver adding the sub and center later. Don't be scared to go 2.0 or 2.1.

 

[sholling]

If I can't mount the speakers on the wall (my TV is on a console stand) would I be able to stand them up next to the TV?

If wall mounting is out then I'd buy 2 floor standing towers and an acoustically matched center and forgo the sub. Just based on reviews I'd call TSC and ask when they expect more of their TST2 tower speakers. I think this would be a lot better way to go in an apartment.

 

[Shock]

If you live in an apartment and care about people, do NOT buy a subwoofer.

 

[ljaggers]

If you live in an apartment and care about people, do NOT buy a subwoofer.

I agree. Maybe invest in speakers with larger drivers for a fuller range of sound and forget the sub (gasp). I went almost an entire year like this and was happy with what I was hearing.

 

[KASR]

I agree. Maybe invest in speakers with larger drivers for a fuller range of sound and forget the sub (gasp).

I can't believe you said that....I'm coming right over to hit you.

 

[skers_54]

If you live in an apartment and care about people, do NOT buy a subwoofer.

No, you just need to level-match it, decouple it from the floor and limit when you play bass-heavy and dynamic material. A little common sense and decent building construction go a long way.

 

[Shock]

No, you just need to level-match it, decouple it from the floor and limit when you play bass-heavy and dynamic material. A little common sense and decent building construction go a long way.

I've lived in buildings where the walls were double concrete blocks, nothing will prevent vibrations from penetrating your walls, floors, and ceiling. Decoupling your sub from the floor does little to prevent vibration for the simple fact more vibration is conducted through walls, floor, and ceiling. Unless you want to treat your entire room simply putting your sub on a glorified foam pad will not be the magic cure some people think it is.

Getting a sub in an apartment setting is just asking for more problems that it's worth.

I just finished framing and treating a "man cave" for my brother's company, and to get the thing to a point where LFE would not penetrate the ceiling of the basement was a huge hassle. We finished the entire room in QuietRock 545THX, and we you could still hear LFE at high volumes. So we had to put another layer of it on the ceiling.

 

[skers_54]

I've lived in buildings where the walls were double concrete blocks, nothing will prevent vibrations from penetrating your walls, floors, and ceiling. Decoupling your sub from the floor does little to prevent vibration for the simple fact more vibration is conducted through walls, floor, and ceiling. Unless you want to treat your entire room simply putting your sub on a glorified foam pad will not be the magic cure some people think it is.

Getting a sub in an apartment setting is just asking for more problems that it's worth.

I just finished framing and treating a "man cave" for my brother's company, and to get the thing to a point where LFE would not penetrate the ceiling of the basement was a huge hassle. We finished the entire room in QuietRock 545THX, and we you could still hear LFE at high volumes. So we had to put another layer of it on the ceiling.

And I've been using a DIY Kappa sub for a year in two different apartments and had no complaints. Can't even hear it outside my apartment. My point is that you have to be smart about it. High, sustained volumes is just asking for trouble. Reasonable volumes at reasonable times of the day is a much different situation.

Concrete actually transmits sound well. It just takes a much higher SPL to get excite its resonances. That's why WmAx still uses rockwool inside his speaker cabinets. Traditional treatment of the room won't do anything to stop sound transmission either, unless you cover the walls, ceiling and floor (as you found out).

In my experience, subs can work in apartments if you use a modicum of common sense. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[ljaggers]

fight, fight, fight!!.....

 

[Shock]

And I've been using a DIY Kappa sub for a year in two different apartments and had no complaints. Can't even hear it outside my apartment. My point is that you have to be smart about it. High, sustained volumes is just asking for trouble. Reasonable volumes at reasonable times of the day is a much different situation.

Concrete actually transmits sound well. It just takes a much higher SPL to get excite its resonances. That's why WmAx still uses rockwool inside his speaker cabinets. Traditional treatment of the room won't do anything to stop sound transmission either, unless you cover the walls, ceiling and floor (as you found out).

In my experience, subs can work in apartments if you use a modicum of common sense. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I don't really understand the "time of the day" point. Annoying is annoying at any time of the day. If anyone in the building can hear your music or movies in anyway that's incredibly disrespectful. You pay for your apartment, that does not include your audio transmitting to others. Also of any building material you would possibly use in an apartment or a house, concrete block has the most sound dampening qualities. You can't build walls out of insulation. I also personally wouldn't call a double layer of quietrock as traditional room treatments. That would be the equivalent of slapping 20 layers of drywall on the ceiling. That's what it took to eliminate low frequencies. I would challenge anyone to find me an apartment with that type of building quality.

I mean if you don't plan on ever turning your sub up past 65-70 dB, then I'm sure there would be no problem. But then again why get a sub if you can't enjoy it for what it is?

Your system should reflect the amount of area you have to work with. If I ever had to move for work and had to live in an apartment again, my system would be chopped into a 3.0. That would make the most sense to me.

Athough to the OP, there is no reason you couldn't go with a 5.1 system and just connect the speakers you want. From what I've read here, quite a few people recommend the RC-Micro system from Energy, which can be had at a decent price. I've heard them at a local mom and pop audio shop and their on axis response was pretty good. I personally like more traditional sized speakers but I think they would do a decent job at filling a small to medium sized room.

 

[gsforfree]

Thanks again for the great discussion and help. If it helps, my floor is about 2FT thick of concrete and I'm on a corner apartment so no neighbors next door.

I saw on Newegg that there's a special for the Energy Take 5.0 system and a Polk Audio PSW10 for $200. Would having a higher end receiver here "maximize" the quality of these speakers?

I don't plan on watching or listening to anything super loudly (see neighbor discussion...) so I don't think that's much of an issues (also why the TSC TST1's look tempting).

Also, do I have to worry about voice-matching if I piecemeal a system?

 

[skers_54]

Thanks again for the great discussion and help. If it helps, my floor is about 2FT thick of concrete and I'm on a corner apartment so no neighbors next door.

I saw on Newegg that there's a special for the Energy Take 5.0 system and a Polk Audio PSW10 for $200. Would having a higher end receiver here "maximize" the quality of these speakers?

I don't plan on watching or listening to anything super loudly (see neighbor discussion...) so I don't think that's much of an issues (also why the TSC TST1's look tempting).

Also, do I have to worry about voice-matching if I piecemeal a system?

The TSC speakers get good reviews and will produce a much fuller sound than the Takes. You would need to get a TSC center channel (ideally another TST1) if you expanded to 5/7.1 to maintain a seamless front soundstage. The Dayton SUB-120 is cheaper and will outperform the Polk sub; it's the most recommended budget sub. Receivers pretty much sound the same, so just get one that has the features and price you like.

You should be fine with neighbors as long as you keep a handle on the volume control. My average volume is ~65-70 dB (about the same as the average conversation) and I have no issues. An Auralex Gramma would help with structure-born resonance if you're really concerned, as well as improve sound quality.

Shock: I did not say quietrock was a room treatment. I alluded to it to demonstrate the lengths required to confine high SPL to a single room. That's where the "common sense" component of my method comes in. Time of day will determine how transmitted sound is perceived. For example, I am much more sensitive to noise when I'm trying to sleep than when I'm cooking dinner with a fan, microwave and oven on.