Recently moved, new room, new challenges

[sven1olaf]

Hello, I'm hoping someone can help me out.

We recently moved and are going to leverage Spotify family for whole house audio. We have Sonos throughout the house so that works well, but in my media room I have no Sonos equipment and can't seem to get Spotify in my Oppo 103. So, the next alternative is the PS4 pro. But, this only outputs pcm when set to output Dolby/DTS bitstream to my AVR.

Does anyone know:

1. How to get Spotify support on an oppo 103?
2. How to get the PS4 pro to output bitstream to my AVR?

I am kicking around the idea of upgrading my AVR to include a separate amp for the L/C/R. Any advice on how best to do this? Or is there a solid AVR that I should look at replacing the Marantz with?

And here's the kicker...this room has a built in entertainment center that is made from some cheap materials, and is not optimum for a decent HiFi system. Any advice on correcting this?

After the amp/AVR upgrade, my plan is to get some bookshelves on stands to put behind the couch for surrounds. The x4 Phoenix gold's in the ceiling are not well located for their intended use as surrounds and rear surrounds. They might actually work out for Atmos though. Rear surround config (hardware and location) is going to be trickier.


AVR: marantz SR5007
Oppo: bdp-103
PS4 Pro
L/R: Focal 807v
C: Focal 800v
Surrounds: x4 in ceiling 6.5" Phoenix gold Atc6
Subs: x2 Sunfire HRS-12
Display: Panasonic 65st50

I've been out of the game for about 5 years, so any advice, recommendations, or tips would be appreciated.

Let me know if additional info would be helpful.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[sven1olaf]

Hello,

We recently moved, and I had to leave behind my designed room... And now I have another one to work on.

AVR: marantz SR5007
Player: Oppo bdp-103
Player: PS4 Pro
L/R: Focal 807v
C: Focal 800v
Surrounds: x4 in ceiling 6.5" Phoenix gold Atc6 (these came with the house)
Subs: x2 Sunfire HRS-12
Display: Panasonic 65st50

The largest problem with the new room is the built in. It doesn't allow for proper L/C/R separation, and the building materials are not super rigid.

It forces my L/C/R and subs into little cubby holes that have weak bottoms, and trapezoidal shapes. This immediately caused vibration and what can only describe as "a harmonic coupling between all the speakers..."

I was able to improve this by trying to tune the supports with additional wood blocks attached on the underside. And I purchased auralex isolation pads for all 5 speakers. This helped considerably, but the lack of proper separation and persistent vibration are still present.

That and the plane the L/C/R are on is a bit high, though the angled isolation pads help with angulation.

There is no way I can see to widen the area effectively.

Any suggestions.

I am thinking about pulling the built in out entirely, but im still functionally width limited.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[shadyJ]

You should try to angle your speakers more so that the tweeter is pointing at the ear level of your listening position. The speaker's present position is very compromising to the sound quality, as I am sure you will recognize. Placing them into cubbies makes for a very diffracting environment. They look to be a little too close together for good left/right separation. The height wold be an issue, even if you could tilt them at an appropriate angle. By listening to 2-way bookshelf speakers in such a low angle, you are surely getting a gap in the response from a cancellation between the woofer and tweeter around the crossover frequency. I know you are kind of trapped in that situation though; you can't pull the speakers out as there is no room.

What I would do is just set aside another space in the house for audio enjoyment if you are really concerned with a high-fidelity sound. There is not much you can do to fix your present situation without totally altering your space. That is not an ideal space for great sound, although I am sure it is more than fine for casual listening.

 

[sven1olaf]

Hi Shady,

I will see what I can do about a greater downward angle for the L/C/R's. They are on Auralex MoPad XL's now, set at 4 deg down. I can see if I can sneak in the shims to give me 8 deg down...better than nothing.

I'm pretty disappointed with this whole thing. It's amazing how much a room can change everything! Those Focals, on their pretty little stands all proud, front and center, always we remarkably clear and dynamic in my last room. It was a more closed off, square room with perfect walls for surround placements, and the amazing luck of allowing me to leave my x2 subs upfront.

From there, I'm hoping some decent surrounds on stands (right behind the couch) can help round out the soundfield a little for me while I realize that with a bathroom remodel, kitchen facelift, deck to scape and paint,... that the renovation needed to fix this space ain't gonna happen for a while. And I'm going to see if pulling those subs out of their respective cubbies can help a little.

Also, I will now have a second system... somewhere... not the garage... office maybe

I appreciate the feedback!

 

[sven1olaf]

You should try to angle your speakers more so that the tweeter is pointing at the ear level of your listening position. The speaker's present position is very compromising to the sound quality, as I am sure you will recognize. Placing them into cubbies makes for a very diffracting environment. They look to be a little too close together for good left/right separation. The height wold be an issue, even if you could tilt them at an appropriate angle. By listening to 2-way bookshelf speakers in such a low angle, you are surely getting a gap in the response from a cancellation between the woofer and tweeter around the crossover frequency. I know you are kind of trapped in that situation though; you can't pull the speakers out as there is no room.

What I would do is just set aside another space in the house for audio enjoyment if you are really concerned with a high-fidelity sound. There is not much you can do to fix your present situation without totally altering your space. That is not an ideal space for great sound, although I am sure it is more than fine for casual listening.

Quick update:

I was not able to fit the additional wedges under the speakers, so I just wedged in as much as I could. I don't have an exact angle I achieved, but the subjective experience is already significant!!!

Thanks for the great tip!

 

[sven1olaf]

Ok, so I am going to work on getting a carpenter over here to look at options for dealing with this built-in. If I am going to do this, I'd like to do it right. (see original post for pics)

Current plan:

• talk to contractor about options for deleting the built-in, as configured
• determine options for pushing out both sides for additional width
• frame and finish new area
• install some sort of substantial floating shelf, or shelf that runs along the width of the new area
• ensure backing and support are in place for display mounting
• ensure width and height for optimum L/C/R separation and placement
• finish and organize back side of new solution for rack management of AV gear and networking

Does anyone have any advice on requirements I should shoot for when designing this?

My current setup gives:

• seating position = 108"
• L/R separation (center to center) = 48"
• Angle = 22.2 degrees from center of listening position, or 44.4 deg total separation between L/R

Is there something that I should be thinking of that I'm not?

Please let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks,

 

[shadyJ]

Ok, so I am going to work on getting a carpenter over here to look at options for dealing with this built-in. If I am going to do this, I'd like to do it right. (see original post for pics)

Current plan:

• talk to contractor about options for deleting the built-in, as configured
• determine options for pushing out both sides for additional width
• frame and finish new area
• install some sort of substantial floating shelf, or shelf that runs along the width of the new area
• ensure backing and support are in place for display mounting
• ensure width and height for optimum L/C/R separation and placement
• finish and organize back side of new solution for rack management of AV gear and networking

Does anyone have any advice on requirements I should shoot for when designing this?

My current setup gives:

• seating position = 108"
• L/R separation (center to center) = 48"
• Angle = 22.2 degrees from center of listening position, or 44.4 deg total separation between L/R

Is there something that I should be thinking of that I'm not?

Please let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks,

That is an awful lot of work and money going into what may still be a heavily compromised situation. Do you have another room that can be used as a listening room/media room/home theater? Because I would not want to try to salvage that existing setup. The room just is not great for a really good audio system. Sorry to say this, but I don't think remodeling can do a lot there because it is hemmed in by doorways.

 

[sven1olaf]

That is an awful lot of work and money going into what may still be a heavily compromised situation. Do you have another room that can be used as a listening room/media room/home theater? Because I would not want to try to salvage that existing setup. The room just is not great for a really good audio system. Sorry to say this, but I don't think remodeling can do a lot there because it is hemmed in by doorways.

Hi Shady,

Yeah the room will never be perfect, but I'm hoping it can be better.

The largest issue currently is the lack of L/C/R separation, and the L/C/R being off-plane... At least this is how I understand it. Please let me know if there are other large issues you are aware of.

The in ceilings are not well placed, but this is fairly easily overcome, and I probably won't be using now than x2 of them anyway (5/7.2.2).

The actual footprint of the room has the two large openings, but this actually works in my favor a little. The room is very neutral. This and the acoustically textured ceiling, carpeted floor, blinds on the windows, and some solid room correction have me at least at better than average status currently.

Here is a rough sketch of what I am thinking for the built in delete. Open up the front stage, pull the subs out for placement elsewhere, and slightly push the listening area to the left.

From there, if all calibrated well and I enjoy it, I would have an option for L/C/R upgrades, and another pc4000 as budget allows.

What do you think?

 

[shadyJ]

OK, I see what you want to do. That should be significantly better for sound quality than what you are able to do now.

 

[sven1olaf]

OK, I see what you want to do. That should be significantly better for sound quality than what you are able to do now.

ahhh, the sweet feeling of validation. =]

this whole thing will depend on the quotes I get for the remodel. There isn't a lot of meat on the bone for this currently. We are looking at siding, master bathroom renovation, and a kitchen facelift as well. I was really hoping to get my media room squared away before incurring some substantial reno costs.

*fingers crossed

 

[sven1olaf]

Grrr...can't find any tradesmen to even look at my project. Business must be good!

While I struggle with having to wait to get rolling, I am working on getting my details cleared up. I'm hoping you all can help me with a Dolby layout question:

I was able to find Dolby sheet for a proper 5.1.2 setup, with IC Atmos speakers. But Dolby does not provide docs for IC surrounds? Is it seriously bad to do this? If so, I think on wall dipoles are the way I'll have to go.

Attached is the Dolby 5.1.2 doc from their site.//cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5ce5bc217afc8/Dolby 5.1.2-IC.pdf

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

They don’t provide a sheet for IC surrounds with height speakers because that’s not an actual designation. Atmos won’t work that way. It needs the height difference between the bed and height layer to be Atmosy. Read this one. It’s much more in depth.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
I wish they’d put it on their site because, like the pic you posted IS useful, it leaves out a LOT of information and leaves people confused. Sorry man, not gonna work with all ic.

 

[sven1olaf]

They don’t provide a sheet for IC surrounds with height speakers because that’s not an actual designation. Atmos won’t work that way. It needs the height difference between the bed and height layer to be Atmosy. Read this one. It’s much more in depth.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
I wish they’d put it on their site because, like the pic you posted IS useful, it leaves out a LOT of information and leaves people confused. Sorry man, not gonna work with all ic.

Yeah, that makes sense. Not what I wanted hear, but understandable. I'm shooting for the best immersion I can get, so either 5.2.2 or 7.2.2 or 5.2.4. getting to 7.2.4 will require more and than I will have for now.

The next question is: would you forsake Atmos for IC surrounds if wall placement points to IC surrounds as the best option?l

Are on wall, dipole surrounds a valid option for the surround channels? There will be a positioning question following if yes. =]

PS. Getting minidsp and mic ordered for use with Rew.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, that makes sense. Not what I wanted hear, but understandable. I'm shooting for the best immersion I can get, so either 5.2.2 or 7.2.2 or 5.2.4. getting to 7.2.4 will require more and than I will have for now.

The next question is: would you forsake Atmos for IC surrounds if wall placement points to IC surrounds as the best option?l

Are on wall, dipole surrounds a valid option for the surround channels? There will be a positioning question following if yes. =]

PS. Getting minidsp and mic ordered for use with Rew.

Ok. For the “best immersion” you can get in that space, I’m gonna recommend 5.x.4. 7ch is nice, but rear surrounds are just a very thin layer of icing. As you know the weight is placed on the front stage. However, a LOT of modern soundtracks use the entire sound field to great effect. Properly placed surrounds(side surrounds in a 7ch layout) can deliver a very convincing rear sound field and coupled with .4 overhead is just awesome.

Speaking only for myself(but probably some others), there isn’t a chance in hell that I’d forsake Atmos for any IC installation. Not a chance. My room is open concept with a sunken LR next to the kitchen with a bank of cabinets that creates a partial right wall. When we built our house, I built a column to hold my right surround speaker. My wife hates it, but IDGAF!!! I know my goals, and within reason, I will do what it takes. So, I might not be the right one to ask lol, but that’s where I stand.
Edit to add: here’s a picture of the column. Worst picture I callus possibly share. Old, messy, room has been updated since, etc but you get the idea.

Dipoles? No. The out of phase nature of dipoles will not work with atmos. Bipoles? Yes. Despite my distain for them, in the right installation, they are probably the right thing. Small room, close the speaker etc.

Good call on the mic and rew!!!

 

[sven1olaf]

Ok. For the “best immersion” you can get in that space, I’m gonna recommend 5.x.4. 7ch is nice, but rear surrounds are just a very thin layer of icing. As you know the weight is placed on the front stage. However, a LOT of modern soundtracks use the entire sound field to great effect. Properly placed surrounds(side surrounds in a 7ch layout) can deliver a very convincing rear sound field and coupled with .4 overhead is just awesome.

Speaking only for myself(but probably some others), there isn’t a chance in hell that I’d forsake Atmos for any IC installation. Not a chance. My room is open concept with a sunken LR next to the kitchen with a bank of cabinets that creates a partial right wall. When we built our house, I built a column to hold my right surround speaker. My wife hates it, but IDGAF!!! I know my goals, and within reason, I will do what it takes. So, I might not be the right one to ask lol, but that’s where I stand.
Edit to add: here’s a picture of the column. Worst picture I callus possibly share. Old, messy, room has been updated since, etc but you get the idea.

Dipoles? No. The out of phase nature of dipoles will not work with atmos. Bipoles? Yes. Despite my distain for them, in the right installation, they are probably the right thing. Small room, close the speaker etc.

Good call on the mic and rew!!!

I love your dedication!

Yeah, you're right on the dipole, I meant bipole. Though most i've looked at these days can be configured in a variety of ways. There is no way I'll get the rears and sides on stands, and in wall only poses more problems (external walls, chimney, plumbing for previous hot tub, etc). That is why I was hoping for an IC or OW bipole application. I think I can sneak my 807v's on stands behind the couch, but they're really going to be in the main walk way to get out of the walk out (which everyone, including our dog use more as a raceway than a walkway).

Thanks for your info on the 5.2.4 as a preference! This will be the direction I will go. This poor ceiling is going to be awful because of x4 holes already punched in the wrong places. But, at this point IDAF!

 

[sven1olaf]

Hi guys,

I think I have found a couple of creating that are willing to tackle my project. They are both hesitant about moving the beam, but agree that it can be done...though an engineer will need to be involved.

My question is about the design element of the new space. I'll have effectively 2 choices: a layout with the beam in place, and a layout moving the beam.

Black: existing structure, built in shown

Red: beam and header locations as is

Blue: built in and closet delete, framed out squared off

Green: moving beam left, to far edge of existing closet


If the beam can not move effectively, framing out in front of it is an option. This would substantially shrink the feeling in the room, but give a better backdrop for mounting and placement.

If the beam can move I can get the width I'm looking for (about 10' left to right), but now have to address what to do with the framing and design of the space. Walking into the room now gives a nice open feeling due to the angled face of the closet. Moving the beam and squaring everything off will eliminate this angled, open feeling. I could just not frame the wall on the far side of the beam, giving a floating beam result, but allowing that open feeling still.

Either way, I have all of the space behind the area to work with while addressing the concerns of each finished solution. I'm sure I'm not aware of since details that you all may be. Do you have any ideas or suggestions to help me?

I have tons of pics and my gorilla-like drawings, but am happy to provide anything that may help.

Here's the kicker: With the equipment pulled out (I moved the sub on the right into the rear, left corner of the room and am getting base response like never before! Remarkable results really, the Front sounds field is very good right now so I am thinking that I'll keep my L/C/R intact.

The thing is that I'm using poorly positioned IC's for rear Surrounds. This will be addressed with either stand mounted BS's or wall mounted bipoles to fill out the 5.1 field. Then properly position 4 decent IC's for Atmos. And...I think I need a third sub (thinking rythmic or svs) for the space but will verify that when my Umik gets here next week. Also, I will be getting a new AVR (anthem, D&M, yammie) to handle the additional channels, give me 4k access, and get the latest version of room correction.

If any of you can help with some input for me I would greatly appreciate it! I feel like I'm fighting in a black abyss right now, and need a tactical strategy to get out.

As always, please ask if there is additional info that would be helpful.

 

[shadyJ]

I like the open space, and it would be a shame to lose it just for a AV system. Do you not have another room in your house that you can convert into a media room?

Something else to consider that the improvement in sound that you hear when you pull the speakers out is just from giving them distance from boundaries. If you plan to put them back in some shelves or cubbies or whatever, you go back to losing a lot of their great sound. Despite their name, bookshelf speakers can never really sound great in actual bookshelves. So unless you can give them actual stand-off distances from nearby surfaces, I would say don't bother with redoing that area. You can get a broader soundstage from widening the speaker angle, and a better response from having the speakers be level with listening position ears, but shoving them into recessed shelves will still be very deleterious to the sound.

By the way, it doesn't matter that you pull the subs out. That isn't going to improve their sound, although the open area might be better ventilated for their amp, but I am guessing that you never pushed them so hard that ventilation ever became an issue.

 

[sven1olaf]

I like the open space, and it would be a shame to lose it just for a AV system. Do you not have another room in your house that you can convert into a media room?

Something else to consider that the improvement in sound that you hear when you pull the speakers out is just from giving them distance from boundaries. If you plan to put them back in some shelves or cubbies or whatever, you go back to losing a lot of their great sound. Despite their name, bookshelf speakers can never really sound great in actual bookshelves. So unless you can give them actual stand-off distances from nearby surfaces, I would say don't bother with redoing that area. You can get a broader soundstage from widening the speaker angle, and a better response from having the speakers be level with listening position ears, but shoving them into recessed shelves will still be very deleterious to the sound.

By the way, it doesn't matter that you pull the subs out. That isn't going to improve their sound, although the open area might be better ventilated for their amp, but I am guessing that you never pushed them so hard that ventilation ever became an issue.

Hi shady,

I agree that eliminating the openness is less than optimum. The wife especially agrees with this! She just can not wrap her mind around what I'm talking about and why it's necessary...though she also hates having the speakers in the floor as they sit now.

As for other rooms, the family room is a prime candidate but faces even steeper reluctance from my favorite girl. (Pics attached)

For the basement, I absolutely would NOT be putting the speakers back inside any sort of restrictive area. My plan is to delete the built in, push the wall to the left to open the sound stage, and entire area, and then have something similar to the rough sketch attached.

So, with the basement as the area to be used, and with the idea that some work with the area will be needed, do you have any suggestions for things like: should the now pushed out wall be open or run floor to ceiling, are there things that I should ensure are located appropriately (power, access holes, pre-wiring, lighting, mounting placements, etc.)

I am going to settle for something less than ideal, but if construction is going to happen, I'd like to make sure it is as helpful as it can be.

It's just another rainy Memorial Day over here. I hope all if you are having better weather than we are. =]

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I thought pics attached were of your favorite girl! Rofl........

I can totally appreciate what you’re trying to do. And fwiw, my opinions to go for it. If you have other spaces to use as common area, use THEM for that. Build your man cave as best you can within reason, and sensibility. The way I see it is, most of us don’t have the space/funds/waf/understanding, etc to do a space exactly how we want it. Soooo, if you can get close enough, and you don’t have to pay for it with a limb, or other body part, Fukk it. Get r done. Only live once.
Edit: oh yeah, forgot to give any actual advice. Busy day... I’ll stop in later.

 

[shadyJ]

Hi shady,

I agree that eliminating the openness is less than optimum. The wife especially agrees with this! She just can not wrap her mind around what I'm talking about and why it's necessary...though she also hates having the speakers in the floor as they sit now.

As for other rooms, the family room is a prime candidate but faces even steeper reluctance from my favorite girl. (Pics attached)

For the basement, I absolutely would NOT be putting the speakers back inside any sort of restrictive area. My plan is to delete the built in, push the wall to the left to open the sound stage, and entire area, and then have something similar to the rough sketch attached.

So, with the basement as the area to be used, and with the idea that some work with the area will be needed, do you have any suggestions for things like: should the now pushed out wall be open or run floor to ceiling, are there things that I should ensure are located appropriately (power, access holes, pre-wiring, lighting, mounting placements, etc.)

I am going to settle for something less than ideal, but if construction is going to happen, I'd like to make sure it is as helpful as it can be.

It's just another rainy Memorial Day over here. I hope all if you are having better weather than we are. =]

Well, the less walls and surfaces, the better it is for the sound, so the more open you can make it, the better your sound system can be. As far as power outlets, etc, the closer you can get them to your system, the better. The room dimensions aren't perfect for surround speaker placement, but just try to stay as close to Dolby's placement guide for surround speakers as possible, and it will sound fine.