receiver for 90% music for less than $700??

[zumbo]

I could clearly understand someone posting a better receiver option, and then debating, showing their knowledge of the two items was superior. Love that kind of stuff.

But creating an argument about something completely unrelated to the thread to try to imply my knowledge is inferior is uncalled for. And if anyone looks back, you will see I didn't entertain the actual .1 argument.

Then, just trying to find other ways to continue to toy around with the thread is clearly immature.

 

[Adam]

And you don't believe there are members here strategically placed to sell those items?

Honestly, no. Maybe I'm naive, but my recollection is that SVS and Audioholics had a falling out back around when I was doing my research (in the 2006 timeframe) because AH discovered that some of their staff were members here making recommendations without acknowledging that they worked for SVS...or something like that. I do not believe that AH promotes that type of activity, and I think that they actively try to prevent it. I was suprised (happy, but surprised) when I came back last July after taking 17 months off to see that SVS was back as a sponsor.

And from your post, you have been sold internet garbage that members here recommended.

I'm a big boy. I've got my big boy pants on to prove it. Nobody made me buy anything - I made my own decisions. Some recommended not getting an amp, some the opposite. There were several brands recommended. I chose inexpensive over proven when I ventured into owning an external amp. Sonically, the Emotiva amps are fine. I do not like the audible hum of the transformers, nor did I like the bad service that I received. However - there are plenty on here with opposite experiences. I can chalk it up to the fact that Emotiva was going through a growth spurt when I bought my gear, but I still think the service should have been better.

Seeing as how you are unsatisfied with your EMO purchase, seems like you would stand-up when people are recommending net brand purchases to new members that may not know any better.

I do tend to say something when Emotiva is recommended just to state my experience, but the fact is, it was my experience and not indicative of what I've read on here. I know for a fact that two other prominent members back in the 2007 timeframe had the same problems that I did, but that was over four years ago. People and companies change.

I am a genuine guy, with genuine product knowledge. My replies to members are genuine, and not motivated by a sell.

That's good - truly. I just happen to think that's also true of the others here.

 

[GranteedEV]

Constantly Audioholic members change the person posting from wanting to replace one thing, to somehow convincing them to buy a completely different item.

Maybe we're trying to help stop people from wasting their money?

It's been discussed ad hominem with respect to Polk Forums and other audio websites, that a lot of suggestions are thrown out that do 0% improvement to the sound, but take a big hit on the wallet. We like to see people make improvements for their dollar that are actually.. ya know.. improvements.

Then, of coarse, that item is an internet only product the new member has never heard of. Next thing you know, you got another member on the bandwagon.

Maybe that's because these "internet only products new member has never heard of" make actual improvements rather than "hi fi shop only aesthetic upgrades that sound the same"? Do you honestly, honestly think you're helping the OP by telling him to spend 3.5 X the money he spent on his speakers, on a new receiver, . OP started a thread stating he wants to spend 3.5X the money he spent on speakers, on a new receiver. We're trying to help him spend his money where necessary on forward, not lateral, improvements on the sound quality. I don't get the cerwin vega recommendation either, but it's not indicative of the nature of this thread or forum as a whole.

60w is a hell of a lot of amp for SIX FEET away. 97db peaks (unclipped, and even slightly louder with some inaudible distortion) allows for a receiver setting near -7 on most people's receivers. I find myself listening at -30 to -15 most of the time so i'd say that's plenty of amplifier headroom. Since I made a switch from a 100wpc marantz receiver, to a whopping 500wpc amp, that things sound.... the same! Because I never clipped the 100wpc receiver at 10 ft away in the first place!!! Now I bought that amp for alternative reasons that have yet to be realized, but if i were doing it expecting to improve sound quality, i'd be extremely dissapointed!!!!

So are amps the right choice sometimes? Sure!! But just because someone's asking for an amp, doesn't make it necessarily the right choice. He's SIX feet away!!

If you think the goal of everyone here should be to keep new members in a constant state of dissapointment and upgrading (the audiophile disease) rather than "being blown away" then i'm kind of dissapointed in you. That's a very negative attitude.

Even if your attitude is positive, you're being a total tool if all you do is read "I want a receiver" and recommend a receiver. He said "I want to improve sound quality" so why not think for a second whether he's really got clipping problems or not. 60wpc is a LOT of power, especially with the big rythmik handling the power hungry kick drums.

It's called salesmen being placed in a forum to SELL.

And whom might we be talking about?

This was the perfect chance to sell to someone that would be blown away by any new set of speakers once they arrive, due to the fact his are just about inferior to any out there.

Right, so we don't want people blown away

BTW, His speakers are very nice for the money. I suspect he's not clipping his amp driving them either. They can handle a good amount of power for a 5" bookshelf, and extend pretty deep. They've got limitations but I doubt the OP is even hitting them.

 

[zumbo]

Never implied AH places the sales people.

Never called anyone out.

Never bashed anyone.

Never said buying speakers was a bad idea.

My point is that spending money on good speakers to be ran off of a receiver that has a very high chance of clipping is not the best move. Who wants to invest money on something with the possibility of damaging the item? NOT ME.

That's my simple reply. No bashing needed.

All the bashing towards me raised my brow. I have to ask myself why? It constantly happens in threads where internet brands are recommended. I just don't see the merit in the bashing that came my way.

The only answer to me is that I am interfering with a sell. It's the only thing that makes sense. If it is just clearly someone toying with the thread, that should not be allowed.

 

[Adam]

Never implied AH places the sales people.

Maybe not, but the implication is that they allow it.

Never called anyone out.

Sure you did, just not by name. Reread your stuff from this morning. You were potentially calling out a number of folks.

Never bashed anyone.

I'd say calling someone a dishonest salesperson or a fool might be taken that way...

 

[GranteedEV]

My point is that spending money on good speakers to be ran off of a receiver that has a very high chance of clipping is not the best move. Who wants to invest money on something with the possibility of damaging the item? NOT ME.

A very high chance of clipping? The receiver can deliver somewhere around 60wpc in 2 channel stereo full bandwidth, is rated at 80wpc unclipped into 2 channel stereo @ 1khz, is driving the following speaker:

Seriously, do you know how heavily a speaker has to "clip" for it to produce anything resembling a square wave (which is the justification / implication that clipping will damage a speaker)? If an amp is clipping that heavily, anyone with ears will RUN to turn it off because it won't just sound strained, it'll sound unlistenable.

The reality is, with the limited power supply, even if this speaker were to clip, it still can't deliver the power necessary to damage the speaker.

The much more likely reality is that with the OP sitting 6 feet away, even despite the mere 86db sensitivity, he's probably never letting that receiver hit 7.5v peaks (never mind the 7.5 vRMS yhat the receiver can minimally dish out). If adding about 3db of headroom will in FACT make clipping go away, then it's simply not enough clipping (and certainly not consistently enough) to damage a speaker. If you're going to tell him to upgrade amps to prevent damaging his speakers from clipping, then you need to add around 7db to 10db of headroom. Of course if that's the case, chances are he'll blow his speakers from too much power.

There's no amplifier solution to not blowing speakers. Too little power or too much power or just the right amount can all blow speakers if you're stupid with them. It's all about listening responsibly not only for our speakers but our rooms. Again, I can't stress enough that he's 6 feet away. That's half the distance many of us here sit at, which is like 6db more headroom just from where he's sitting.

Further, a lot of music content has more measurable clipping than most amps ever do at the levels most people listen at, combined with low dynamic range which leads to thermal heat buildup even when amps aren't clipping.

All the bashing towards me raised my brow. I have to ask myself why? It constantly happens in threads where internet brands are recommended.

The only answer to me is that I am interfering with a sell. It's the only thing that makes sense. If it is just clearly someone toying with the thread, that should not be allowed.

People here are just annoyed at recommendations for electronics in scenarios where electronics are far from the solution. I can see however that your resentment of "garbage internet brands" leads you to draw wild conclusions like that. Sometimes, myself included, we take it too far. It's a bit of a defense mechanism because, and I'm not trying to call OP clueless, but less knowledgable posters are unsure of which direction to go. It's kind of irresponsible to lead anyone towards solutions that we perceive is being lateral moves.

Like I said in my very first post in this thread, it's tough to know what the OP's issue with the sound he's hearing, until he makes an effort for us by investigating. My suspicion from the start was that

1) He's got enough SPL, but not enough lateral reflected sound. Hence my suggestion to crossfire, to increase lateral reflections and decrease reflections from behind him.
2) The midrange is a bit forward and thus maybe not warm enough, hence my suggestion to bring the speakers closer to the wall to augment the lower midrange.
3) the 2-way 2 driver bookshelf speakers will compress the signal even if you pour much more power into them.

and now it's been established that there's some possible subwoofer integration/placement/room mode issues at play. Again, without investigation what does a new receiver do for you there?

Personally i'm not sure new speakers OR new electronics OR room treatments are the solution to the immediate problems. I think the speakers are good, the electronics are sufficient, and I suspect the room isn't a problem given the speakers(except in the deep bass where treatments don't help). So it boils down to setup and perhaps a second subwoofer. Still a lot of investigation to be done. The microphone and mic preamp in my opinion will help OP figure out what's wrong and how to fix it.

 

[adwilk]

I prefer this forum because of the toying around. Even though I refuse to participate in it. Much better to have a laid back environment with a nice mix of EXCEPTIONAL (IMO) advice and a good time. The choices we make regarding audio is a hobby and not a life or death situation for anybody- well except for the Canadians, but that's another topic. There's great information in this thread and its enjoyable to browse. Most other forums end up with pissing contests about who knows more about the effects switch plate covers and their effect on imaging. No thanks.

 

[avnetguy]

easier said then done, but I will try.

On that note any recommended speakers for the below $700 price range that will compliment my fv12 ?? Dont worry zumbo receiver situation will also be taken care of. just in a different order now..

There are quite a number of good bookshelf speakers and you probably don't need to spend the entire budget to get a good set. You should really go out and have a listen to whichever ones you can find and I recommend you get it from a place that accepts returns in case they don't work in your room. BTW, there is a slightly aged (2009?) budget bookshelf review here on AH, might be worthwhile for you to read to get an idea of the playing field.

Also, being the system is for a workout room might be shifting some opinions here and a little more info might be helpful. Is the background noise generally high, as in a noisy treadmill or mainly just the clanging of free weights? I ask this as a high noise floor might require more output to overcome and a full upgrade (speakers and receiver) might be in order, especially if you like louder music. Any further information on your goal, the importance to you for quality, loudness, etc will be helpful.

Steve

 

[zumbo]

Toying around is one thing, but name calling is not only prohibited, it's childish.

I do appreciate the fact that GranteedEV is attempting to get this back on a fact based thread, rather than the continued uncalled for bashing.

I have no problem with you guys feeling it's okay to recommend the OP invest money in speakers to be ran by an inferior piece of equipment. No reason for me to post immature remarks just because I disagree. Others seem to feel this is okay.

Posting technical data that is not based on the OP's room size is not what I would rely on. The data is helpful to the thread. I could destroy plenty of speakers with that receiver in that room without damaging my ears.

Anyone can join this forum. I find it hard to believe AH has the ability to police each thread, especially one this childish, to try to find people actually working.

The proof is in the thread. There has been salesmen present here. Don't matter to me if they are present in this thread. I am not shopping.

 

[GranteedEV]

There are quite a number of good bookshelf speakers and you probably don't need to spend the entire budget to get a good set. You should really go out and have a listen to whichever ones you can find and I recommend you get it from a place that accepts returns in case they don't work in your room. BTW, there is a slightly aged (2009?) budget bookshelf review here on AH, might be worthwhile for you to read to get an idea of the playing field.

Also, being the system is for a workout room might be shifting some opinions here and a little more info might be helpful. Is the background noise generally high, as in a noisy treadmill or mainly just the clanging of free weights? I ask this as a high noise floor might require more output to overcome and a full upgrade (speakers and receiver) might be in order, especially if you like louder music. Any further information on your goal, the importance to you for quality, loudness, etc will be helpful.

Steve

Good call. I don't bother with speakers on the treadmill. I bust out my closed back headphones. In which case I recommend the Denon DN-HP1000... just a wicked set of cans.

 

[GranteedEV]

Posting technical data that is not based on the OP's room size is not what I would rely on. The data is helpful to the thread. I could destroy plenty of speakers with that receiver in that room without damaging my ears.

Speakers don't draw more power in larger rooms. Sealed Subwoofers might need more EQ boost to compensate for a lack of low end gain, but otherwise, it's just not true.

Speakers draw more power at longer distances (more dispersion loss). You can put me in the middle of the damn Staples Center... if i'm 6 feet away from the speakers it won't matter if i've only got 60w.

 

[avnetguy]

The choices we make regarding audio is a hobby and not a life or death situation for anybody- well except for the Canadians, but that's another topic.

We Canadians do take our audio seriously! Afterall, spending 6+ months in an igloo without a good sound system will drive you mad. It is kind of nice to be able to build room treatments out of snow and ice though.

BTW, anyone know when the receiver makers will take an igloo shape into consideration for their room corrections software?

Steve

 

[zumbo]

Speakers don't draw more power in larger rooms. Sealed Subwoofers might need more EQ boost to compensate for a lack of low end gain, but otherwise, it's just not true.

Speakers draw more power at longer distances (more dispersion loss). You can put me in the middle of the damn Staples Center... if i'm 6 feet away from the speakers it won't matter if i've only got 60w.

Room size in regards to cranking the volume to drive the receiver into clipping.

 

[zumbo]

With all past childish remarks aside, this is what I believe. That's all I can say. The rest is just hot air.

Do you want to invest in a new receiver now, and have the possibility of overpowering your current speakers that you know will be replaced in the future?
I would prefer this route. The more powerful receiver will be better for your current speakers because it will have less of a chance of sending a clipped signal to them. No chance of this being a wasted purchase.

 

[markw]

With all past childish remarks aside, this is what I believe. That's all I can say. The rest is just hot air.

You've made that abundantly clear, many times when you told him tp spend his entire $700 on a receiver, and the rest of the forum pretty much laughed you out of the arena. You just haven't accepted that yet, and probably never will.

Now, put your tin hat back on and enjoy your toys and, please, leave the advice giving to those who know what they are talking about before someone wastes their money and squanders this form's reputation for giving good advice.

 

[jinjuku]

I don't get the cerwin vega recommendation either, but it's not indicative of the nature of this thread or forum as a whole.

60w is a hell of a lot of amp for SIX FEET away. 97db peaks (unclipped, and even slightly louder with some inaudible distortion) allows for a receiver setting near -7 on most people's receivers. I find myself listening at -30 to -15 most of the time so i'd say that's plenty of amplifier headroom. Since I made a switch from a 100wpc marantz receiver, to a whopping 500wpc amp, that things sound.... the same! Because I never clipped the 100wpc receiver at 10 ft away in the first place!!! Now I bought that amp for alternative reasons that have yet to be realized, but if i were doing it

The recommendation from me was based partly on just a high efficiency design.

Tell you what, part of the ding against CV is their speakers from the 80's. I think everyone will agree it was the untreated paper cone and shitty foam surrounds that have generated it.

Lets table it until I call CV and ask them what materials they are currently using. BTW the recommendation comes from seeing them in so many peoples basement gyms. They just popped into my head, or a speaker like them. Yes I will admit to a bit of nostalgia

 

[GranteedEV]

We Canadians do take our audio seriously! Afterall, spending 6+ months in an igloo without a good sound system will drive you mad. It is kind of nice to be able to build room treatments out of snow and ice though.

I goota watch and hear my hockey in HI DEF and HI FI

 

[Adam]

You can put me in the middle of the damn Staples Center... if i'm 6 feet away from the speakers it won't matter if i've only got 60w.

Nice subliminal plug for office supplies, you dirty shill.

 

[avnetguy]

I goota watch and hear my hockey in HI DEF and HI FI

That's a given for Canadians!

Even though we never captured a Gold this year, a Bronze is still good IMO.

Steve

 

[zumbo]

Now I have been personally threatened by jinjuku in a private message.

Seriously? Over a stupid thread?

Never called names. Tried to keep it to the point.

I see things have not changed here since the tube amp flame-up!

Had to re-post this. It didn't all post last time. I'm done. I do have a life!

I 100% believe there will be a speaker replacement, along with a receiver replacement. So think about this.

Do you want to invest in speakers now, and run them off of an inferior receiver?
I would not want to do this due to the possibility of sending a clipped signal to my new speakers from the inferior receiver.

Do you want to invest in a new receiver now, and have the possibility of overpowering your current speakers that you know will be replaced in the future?
I would prefer this route. The more powerful receiver will be better for your current speakers because it will have less of a chance of sending a clipped signal to them. No chance of this being a wasted purchase.