Rear speakers - open plan living

[planetshilp]

Hmm, not many great options to my eye.

You could consider in-wall rears, or something mounted high in the corners pointing down at you, but I suspect neither would be worth the significant trouble.

Maybe look instead at some atmos options to sit atop your towers and bounce off the ceiling. At least that way you can experiment with direction and get some improved HT effect, while remaining tidy.

Thanks for your reply. There is no way i can access the ceiling to install atmos speakers - its a double story house and the setup (living room) is on the ground floor.

 

[planetshilp]

Just don't think about it. Doing surround audio in a room like that is a waste of time and money, in fact worse than that.

A room like that is best served with a really good 2.1 or 3.1 system. My advice is to spend funds to improve the 3.1 system you have. That will give you the best results.
Systems like you already have can give really good results in rooms like that.

Thanks for your reply. My initial thoughts were the same and was thinking to ditch the idea of rears and maybe have another subwoofer. But the idea of having sound coming in from rears is too fascinating (especially while watching movies)!

 

[planetshilp]

Tough choice in that room. Having wall mounted speakers might work in the far corner but not so great next to the doorway. In our living room I opted to mount the surrounds up high in the rear corners, so higher than what WIlliam has sketched in the photo. High surrounds are not ideal but they still make an audible difference if you just want to add some effects to movies. If this is primarily a music setup I would stick to 3.1.

As to how I would go about it in that room, I would get speakers with mounting brackets and just run cables on the floor to test things out. 14 gauge stranded copper is not that expensive. In that scenario, if you don't like the result, then you only have to patch a few screw holes and touch up the paint. If you like the result, then the trick is hiding the wires. Only a couple options that I see since you can't go in the ceiling. If there is basement access, then down from the stereo, through the floor joists and up the walls. If no floor access, then either in-wall or surface mounted. In-wall will require a lot of patching and repainting. For surface mounting you can buy tracks to run the wire inside and run the tracks on top of the base board. The lack of trim around the doorway will make that a tricky option as well.

As to speakers, depends on your budget. I am planning to replace my surrounds with the True Mini from Philharmonic Audio. You'll be hard pressed to beat the sound in that size but they are $380 US + shipping. They do make them in white, though, which I'm sure from the photos is your preferred colour.

Thanks for your reply. I spoke to an installer and he reckons he can hide the cables in the wall - if i were to place the rears on either side of the plantation shutters. The wire from AV receiver could just be mounted on the wall (wall tracks). Not sure though the rear speakers would do any improvement considering its an open plan living area and one side (back side) opens via a sliding door to our backyard. But, having an option like the SVS elevation speakers seems fascinating even if they add a bit of dimension to the surround sound.

 

[planetshilp]

I agree that your room doesn't really lend itself to a surround system- mine doesn't, either. I could, but since most of what I listen to wasn't mixed for surround and since it wouldn't sound great with surround, I haven't bothered. My system is stereo. Not 2.1 or 3.1, stereo. The dialog comes from dead center, right and left channel information come from the appropriate locations and anything between the two speakers pans evenly and without drops in level or detail. When I watch TV or movies, it works well and in systems that are less than very expensive/painstakingly set up and subject to glitches due to the technologies involved, I keep it simple.

That said, I think your system might be better if it were turned 90° to the left and the sofa placed so people can walk behind it, as they can with the chair. The walls to the sides of the speakers would be more symmetrical and the sound would benefit from that, IMO.

Thanks for your reply. Interesting! i might push the sofa (green) a bit and see if it makes any difference! Thanks

 

[Wardog555]

Thanks for your reply. There is no way i can access the ceiling to install atmos speakers - its a double story house and the setup (living room) is on the ground floor.

Mount to the ceiling then using something like arendal 1961 heights.

 

[Eppie]

Thanks for your reply. I spoke to an installer and he reckons he can hide the cables in the wall - if i were to place the rears on either side of the plantation shutters. The wire from AV receiver could just be mounted on the wall (wall tracks). Not sure though the rear speakers would do any improvement considering its an open plan living area and one side (back side) opens via a sliding door to our backyard. But, having an option like the SVS elevation speakers seems fascinating even if they add a bit of dimension to the surround sound.

I think it's about managing expectations in this case. While you can add a bit of "dimension" you won't get the precise object placement that a proper setup which conforms to the Dolby specification can offer. I used ceiling mounted surrounds for several years and enjoyed the added ambience but I have since changed to side surrounds and in-ceiling ATMOS speakers and it's much improved. There are several companies that make height speakers but if you want to stick to the white theme then SVS Elevation and the Arendal Heights mentioned above are probably your best option. If mounted ceiling height you can configure them as rear heights for movies and experiment with different surround modes for music.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think you’re going to end up wanting dual subs if you try to integrate small surrounds.

 

[planetshilp]

Thanks all...after a bit of break, got a recommendation of getting paradigm surround 1 (dipoles) - to be used a rears. Further exploration is leading to try ceiling speakers (Paradigm h65a) instead. Super confused....help needed

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks all...after a bit of break, got a recommendation of getting paradigm surround 1 (dipoles) - to be used a rears. Further exploration is leading to try ceiling speakers (Paradigm h65a) instead. Super confused....help needed

What are you confused about? You may be confused, but so are we now!

I assume you are using those ceiling speakers as your surrounds, which is generally the only option in an open plan room. I personally discourage surround audio in open plan rooms.

 

[Eppie]

Thanks all...after a bit of break, got a recommendation of getting paradigm surround 1 (dipoles) - to be used a rears. Further exploration is leading to try ceiling speakers (Paradigm h65a) instead. Super confused....help needed

I'm confused because you initially said no ceiling speakers since it is a 2 story home? Wires can be run anywhere if you are willing to do the drywall patching and painting, so in-ceiling is an option, but think of the noise transfer to the room above and whether back boxes might be needed. I have Paradigm speakers in-ceiling for ATMOS and they are good speakers. They did not require back boxes; just insulation behind and around them. I found the previous year's model on sale and went with the Pro series as opposed to the Home series.

If you are adding just 2 speakers for surround channels and no ATMOS, then in-ceiling is the last place you want unless it ends up being your only option. You want the surround speakers as close to ear level as you can manage, but given your room that may not be possible for the rear right. Judging from the photos, your main listening position is the brown couch close to the doorway. That means the rear left can go next to the plantation shutters, but the rear right on the other side of the shutters would be too close. That is why William drew the rear right on the other side of the doorway, so that the spacing from the main seat is similar.

The Paradigm di-poles might be an option because they have speakers firing at an angle (one inner speaker and one outer speaker), so the inner speakers will be aimed towards the couch. The one issue is that the rear left will have the outer speaker firing at the wall, while the rear right will have the outer speaker firing into open space. That creates an imbalance but you can either just live with it or maybe add some treatment to the wall next to the big window. Nice thing with the Paradigm di-pole is that it is not a rectangular box. The curved or angled corners give them a softer appearance for on-wall applications and the angled speakers direct sound towards the listener. To achieve the same thing with box speakers you would need brackets and angle the speakers inward, or go with height speakers like the Arendal and SVS speakers mentioned earlier. If colour is a big concern, I have only seen the di-poles in black while the ceiling and height speakers can be found in white.

Below are some of the things that I have experiment with. I started with surrounds in-ceiling between the track-lighting and wall (since then they have been removed and patched). Not the best location, but I did enjoy the added effects and it was worth the effort in my opinion. I moved the surrounds to small bookshelf speakers at each end of the couch, which greatly improved the immersiveness in movies. I experimented with flat panel speakers for rear channels but they were too close and lacked sound quality and dynamics, so I removed them. The current in-ceiling speakers are Paradigm CI P65-R. The new in-ceiling speakers have very low profile grills which is nice. The current surround speakers are not very good quality and are being replaced this week with a pair of True Mini Monitors from Philharmonic Audio and a proper corner shelf.

 

[planetshilp]

What are you confused about? You may be confused, but so are we now!

I assume you are using those ceiling speakers as your surrounds, which is generally the only option in an open plan room. I personally discourage surround audio in open plan rooms.

Sorry was (is) confused as I'm still learning! So, now zeroing in on a set of paradigm h65 - A ceiling speakers. Hopefully with not a good acoustically set up room (it's an open plan living area with kitchen on one side!) this might be the only option to go with. Another novice question - these 2 speakers act as surrounds and not as atmos right? Can I add atmos speakers later without these 2 "interfering" in the overall sound quality?

 

[planetshilp]

I'm confused because you initially said no ceiling speakers since it is a 2 story home? Wires can be run anywhere if you are willing to do the drywall patching and painting, so in-ceiling is an option, but think of the noise transfer to the room above and whether back boxes might be needed. I have Paradigm speakers in-ceiling for ATMOS and they are good speakers. They did not require back boxes; just insulation behind and around them. I found the previous year's model on sale and went with the Pro series as opposed to the Home series.

If you are adding just 2 speakers for surround channels and no ATMOS, then in-ceiling is the last place you want unless it ends up being your only option. You want the surround speakers as close to ear level as you can manage, but given your room that may not be possible for the rear right. Judging from the photos, your main listening position is the brown couch close to the doorway. That means the rear left can go next to the plantation shutters, but the rear right on the other side of the shutters would be too close. That is why William drew the rear right on the other side of the doorway, so that the spacing from the main seat is similar.

The Paradigm di-poles might be an option because they have speakers firing at an angle (one inner speaker and one outer speaker), so the inner speakers will be aimed towards the couch. The one issue is that the rear left will have the outer speaker firing at the wall, while the rear right will have the outer speaker firing into open space. That creates an imbalance but you can either just live with it or maybe add some treatment to the wall next to the big window. Nice thing with the Paradigm di-pole is that it is not a rectangular box. The curved or angled corners give them a softer appearance for on-wall applications and the angled speakers direct sound towards the listener. To achieve the same thing with box speakers you would need brackets and angle the speakers inward, or go with height speakers like the Arendal and SVS speakers mentioned earlier. If colour is a big concern, I have only seen the di-poles in black while the ceiling and height speakers can be found in white.

Below are some of the things that I have experiment with. I started with surrounds in-ceiling between the track-lighting and wall (since then they have been removed and patched). Not the best location, but I did enjoy the added effects and it was worth the effort in my opinion. I moved the surrounds to small bookshelf speakers at each end of the couch, which greatly improved the immersiveness in movies. I experimented with flat panel speakers for rear channels but they were too close and lacked sound quality and dynamics, so I removed them. The current in-ceiling speakers are Paradigm CI P65-R. The new in-ceiling speakers have very low profile grills which is nice. The current surround speakers are not very good quality and are being replaced this week with a pair of True Mini Monitors from Philharmonic Audio and a proper corner shelf.

Thank u so much for your tips. Much appreciate them. Dropping the idea of paradigm surround 1's and finalising on in ceiling paradigm h65- A (×2, top of listening position - brown couch). You mentioned they don't sound good and now you r thinking about getting monitors for surround? Still have a few days to think about it before the installation, so would appreciate your feedback.....thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry was (is) confused as I'm still learning! So, now zeroing in on a set of paradigm h65 - A ceiling speakers. Hopefully with not a good acoustically set up room (it's an open plan living area with kitchen on one side!) this might be the only option to go with. Another novice question - these 2 speakers act as surrounds and not as atmos right? Can I add atmos speakers later without these 2 "interfering" in the overall sound quality?

No, you can not have ceiling surrounds and Atmos speakers. If you go with ceiling surrounds, then you can not have an Atmos system.

My very strong advice is to put your money into a very good 3.1 or 3.2 system. Doing anything else will be good money after bad. If you want surround and Atmos you need a different room for your system, or build two systems, one 3.1 the other a full blown Atmos system.

In our main living room which is open plan, we have a 3.1 system and the AV room is a different system. That is how you solve your problem.

 

[Eppie]

Thank u so much for your tips. Much appreciate them. Dropping the idea of paradigm surround 1's and finalising on in ceiling paradigm h65- A (×2, top of listening position - brown couch). You mentioned they don't sound good and now you r thinking about getting monitors for surround? Still have a few days to think about it before the installation, so would appreciate your feedback.....thanks

What I am replacing are the small Canton speakers I currently use for surrounds. They are inexpensive and sound like it. The Philharmonic Audio True-Minis are great little speakers. I should receive them tomorrow.

The Paradigms that I have in the ceiling I am happy with. They retail for $430 Canadian ($314 US) each but I got them at half price. They are straight firing and do not have an angled baffle though.

As TLS Guy mentioned, you can not do ATMOS with in-ceiling surrounds. ATMOS requires placement as per the Dolby specifications and for that you need ear level surrounds to create a proper base layer. In ceiling ATMOS typically are in front of the seating area, while in-ceiling surrounds should be behind you, so the placement is different and you should not combine the two. That would be a waste of money. I had my in-ceiling surrounds as far back as I could manage. If you go that route, line them up approximately with your main speakers and if they have angled baffles aim the tweeter at your main seating position.

Some will discourage the use of in-ceiling surrounds because the placement is all wrong. Sounds will not come from the sides or from behind, but from above. It's not as immersive as properly placed surrounds, but for movie viewing I found that it was still fun to have the rear channels active for effects. It also changes the way music sounds when you experiment with different surround modes. That's not about trying to achieve realism; it's just about having some fun. I listen mostly in 2-channel mode for music, but on occasion I'll use surround modes for something different. If you think you will get some enjoyment from having the rear channels available then it's all a matter of whether you want to spend the money or not.