Rant: $106 to change a Thermostat??!

[TLS Guy]

Being in the auto repair business I can tell you from our side dealing with the extended warranty companies sucks also.

I avoid dealing with them like the plague if I can. They try every way possible to avoid paying a claim, then if they do they will only pay some discounted labor rate, cheep parts no tax no shop supplies etc.

Our shop like every other has fixed and variable costs that determine our labor rate. Your not having a warm place to work is a perfect example, our gas bill last winter averaged $1200 per month. That is part of what your $XX.XX per hour pays for, in addition to about 30 other costs that the business incurs on a daily basis.

The other thing I can tell you is the days of the $5 t-stat and 50 cent gaskets are coming to an end. Parts costs have risen about 30% on average around here. Buying a quality part that will last longer than to just get the customer out the door is just good business practice. If the shop has to do it over because of a faulty part they are loosing money & have the potential to have at the least an inconvinenced customer.

For the record, book time on your thermostat is .9hr & the factory thermostat has a list price of $34.74 the ford specific extended life antifreeze is also quite pricy at about $16/gal retail. At our shop OTD for this job would run $150.13 using factory parts.

Craig

My son in law recently had a thermostat changed and the bill was around $200. To me $106 sounds cheap. I doubt there was much profit for them by the time they drained the coolant, got the thermostat out, cleaned the surfaces, replaced the thermostat, refilled the radiator and got out all the air. A lot of vehicles are devils for air locks these days.

A thermostat change is generally a job I would do myself. I'm glad you changed it though, otherwise I think you would have had engine damage. Modern engine control is intolerant of an engine running too cool. It just pours the gas to it. I think you wife would be very upset if you were looking at an engine rebuild or change before spring.

 

[1kwik72]

Adam,

I've tried experimenting with lower prices, but I found it only brings on the 'grinders'--clients who know you're desparate and will take every advantage of you.

I recently negotiated a price for a 'sweet sixteen' party for someone my wife knows. During the negotiation, it became apparent that she wanted a major production, with multilocation shooting, riding a limo and shooting a reality TV-style video in addition to the reception. I gave her a very low initial price of $1495, as it was right up there with a wedding shoot for complexity (my wedding prices ranged from $1495-$2995). After an hour, we negotiated down to $1100. I wasn't feeling that the job was worth it at this point. And the woman wasn't sure if she wanted to pay it. She told us she'd let us know next week. Before we left, she motioned us over to an open window. What happened next just was the heigh of absurdity. She pointed to a brand new $80,000 black Mercedes that she proudly announced she'd taken delivery of yesterday. We said have a nice day and left.

Another couple, members of the same organization my wife is in, wanted a video done of their 25th vow renewal. I came up with a friend to friend low price of $450. He countered with $150. I turned down the job as I knew it would not be profitable. They guy was the head of some state power authority and his wife was a practicing doctor. They lived in a house that only James Bond could afford.

I don't have that much free time. It's mainly taken up with marketing, repairing my roof during the warmer months, and taking care of my daughter, who was diagnosed with Autism last year. While becoming educated on the condition, I recognized many of the symptoms in myself, when I was a child--in fact many--like the 'one track mindedness' and inability to multitask, as well as poor social skills, are all attributes of Asberger's syndrome. I was never diagnosed because the condition was not recognized when I was a kid. But now I understand a lot more about what lead to the bizarre life I have lived.


Highfigh,

My hands lose pretty much all their function when the temp is below 50°F. Even in the house, where it's 55°F, I find them stiff. I have little feeling in my fingers. Just like when one gets out of the dentist's office after anesthesia, and can't feel one's lips, drinking from a cup just results in spilled liquid. My fingers can't feel or grasp a tool when it's cold because there's no tactile feedback.

I ran Esso gas in my Caddy up to about 1971. The station had a sticker on the pump stating "105+ Octane" on it. A few years later, I couldn't get it anymore. Most of my older cars started to have severe pinging issues with the newer, lower octane gas. But the end of the 70s, I was resorting to retarding the ignition timing to reduce the ping, but at great cost of performance. When that car was pretty new, running on Esso hi-test gas, it could burn rubber for half a block easily. Gawd I miss those days!

I hear you on lowering your prices to try and make a sale. It does nothing but hurt you in the end. I imagine you are in sort of the same spot we are. Every day it seems like some back yard mechanic thinks "I can do this" and opens up a shop up the street basically giving his services away. Typically he has no clue of the overhead involved in running a legit licenced shop where the employees are properly trained, equipped and compensated.

The lowball tactics these fly by night "businesses" employ do nothing but hurt those of us invested in doing business the right way. Two things usually happen to these guys, either they figure it out and come in line with the rest of us because the cost of doing business is what it is. Or they continue to low ball cut corners and provide shoddy work (that usually has to be corrected by the rest of us) Eventually their "customers" figure it out that it isn't worth saving a couple of bucks short term if you constantly have issues. These guys give up and fold up shop. Problem is there is another guy waiting in the wings to give it a shot and it starts all over again.

We basically try to educate our customers about their vehicle and how taking care of it will pay off in the long run. We also tell them up front we aren't the cheepest shop in town. It costs a lot of money to keep our equipment updated our techs current on training and our shop maintained. Basically we sell them on the quality of the job our abillity to do it right the first time and our professionalism.

You are probably in the same situation, any idiot with a handi cam can make a video for next to nothing. Some people probably just don't get it. I for one have no idea what kind of time investment it takes to make a full video production like you are speaking of. I am not ignorant enough to think that its a point and shoot deal though. But that isn't to say their arent people out there who are. I get people in the shop everyday that look at me like I am crazy when I tell them it is $80 to diagnose a drivabillity problem with their car. Every week I get at least 1 person who says "$80 just to look at it? don't you have that machine that you plug in and it tells everything that is wrong with my car" Trust me I wish it was that easy.

FWIW I do regret not going the better route with my wedding pictures and video. Young and ignorant and trying to save a buck. I guess I got what we paid for though, whenever my wife and I get the urge to go down memory lane we are stuck watching it on an old crappy poorly done VHS tape

 

[lsiberian]

I agree. We paid a good bit of cash for our wedding pictures. But I thought it might have been a small amount given the work required.

I think lowballing a friend is not nice.

 

[basspig]

You know it's funny, the ONLY client I can remember that was not a tightwad was the one that went bankrupt while they still owed me $6400 in unpaid invoices for the prior month. That was in July 1995. For a few short weeks, I thought I had it made. Some of my worst clients were the ones that'd sit over my shoulder telling 'do this and do that' while I worked all afternoon and into the evening on their project, for a lousy $60. And talk about hubris, one client owned a fish & pasta restaurant. After I'd invited him to my home for dinner as a kind gesture, he invites me to his new restaurant... and procedes to ring up my lunch on his cash register!

Autism is a really variable condition. It has a broad spectrum of effects on people. Some, like my wife's nephew, don't speak, but can only make noises, while others are high functioning, but socially inept, like myself. It kept me from partaking in romantic relationships for half a century. When I hit my thirties, I was 'that pervert' at the bar. When I hit my forties, I was "that dirty old man" at the bar. I never understood the dynamic of human relationships. If I didn't get a really unlikely stroke of luck while in the Philippines, meeting my wife, who has her own particular odd traits, I'd probably be dead today. Well, better late than never... but I still get the odd looks now and then and the "is that your daughter?" questions when out in public with her. Ah well.. By 1965, I knew I would never have a shot at a normal life..

Back to auto repair.. I DO have a shop I trust and I bring my older truck there for those garage-required repairs. They charge about $78/hr which is not too bad, though at my 1958-style wages, I really cannot afford them either. But they are good, and they usually come in under estimate. I should have been more proactive and called them right from the Ford dealer when I got the news that we had a deductable. It's water under the bridge now.

I always tuned my Caddy, and that included new points at least every two years, and a carb rebuild about every four. Have my timing light and dwell meter and used them frequently. The newer gas just didn't give the car the kind of performance it had back in the early 70s. By 1980, the best I could get was 94 octane. What a joke. Ping city. Had to retard the timing even more. The car ran okay, but it didn't have the enormous acceleration that it used to, despite still good compression.

The last time I saw gas around $15 cents was in the end of the 1950s. CT is just a more expensive area. Gas actually hit $5.00 here in Aug of 2008. That worked out nicely for us, because everyone panicked and turned in their SUVs short of lease completion. We nailed a 2 year old Ford Explorer, loaded and looking like it had never been driven, for just over ten grand. It still had the sticker in the glove compartment with the $35K orig price on it.

Yeah, I remember driving all day for $1 worth of gas. Those were good days.
My property taxes were less than $100/year then, and the government wasn't threatening me and harassing me periodically back then.

Hey, I guess to anyone earning more than $2/hr, $106 seems cheap, but when you realize that means a week's worth of labor for you, then it hurts.

When we got the vehicle, the thermostat must have already been stuck open, because it never had good heat. Luckily the first chance I got, I drained the oil and put in fully synthetic oil. I've been doing that with all my cars that are low mileage, since the mid 70s. When it's -12°F and the truck hasn't been in use all week, it sure helps a lot. Turns right over like it was June weather.

I try to educate my potential clients during the sales phase, but ultimately, videography just it's viewed by the general public as being as important as food, shelter, heat, and other vital essentials. I wish I could figure a way to convince people that my services are as important as the air they breathe, but I haven't figured that one out yet. I just have to admit that I've chosen a retirement career that consists of offering services that nobody cares about and, according to public perception, can easily be replaced by Uncle Joe with his $179 Flip camera. I'll remember to tell that to the judge when they haul me away for not paying my property taxes.

 

[Adam]

I never understood the dynamic of human relationships. If I didn't get a really unlikely stroke of luck while in the Philippines, meeting my wife, who has her own particular odd traits, I'd probably be dead today. Well, better late than never...

Well, congratulations to both of you on meeting one another! It's great that you did, and I'm happy for you both (and your daughter).

I won't claim to have Autism, but some of what you described rings true to me.

 

[jostenmeat]

basspig, I just scanned and read some of your posts. I do not have the clearest of minds at this moment, but I decided to blurt some immediate thoughts anyways. I do not guarantee at all that any of the following will help! Anyways, I've done some weddings, as a musician, and I understand the enormous variations with what people think is a fair price. At least in my experiences, they understand what they want (which they so don't remember with all the hoopla anyways). I've turned down personal friends before, without any ill will between us, because I was asking significantly more than they wanted. They wanted cheap, and they simply didn't care for the quality. They got a coffee shop musician. I've performed in at least five countries, and multiple states. I think they got him for $200, maybe even less. Then I had other friends fly me, and another musician only after I requested they do so for him, to the east coast, free hotel, very fair pay (Harvard philosophy professor).

The above examples are a little extreme, yes. Otherwise, whether it was just me, or with others, I'd charge pretty fairly. It's very different between a musician and an artist, videographer, etc. Because so many hours go into one single piece of work. My close friend charges 4 digits for her larger works, yet she is convinced that she must be only getting paid cents on the hour. OTOH, a musician may spend thousands of hours on a certain program, but at least he/she can duplicate it for many occasions.


So . . . I brainstorm. It will most likely prove to be very difficult, but maybe you can somehow get your lovely wife to help you make the sale, together. I know it's a long shot, because I just read that she's working 12 hour nights. Fuggit man, lie to them. Tell the customers, ok maybe only the azzhole ones, that she is a key player in the final product, and that together it takes you guys whatever that number you cited was, or just exaggerate that too. Simply bring her along for the "sale" only. Show them your nicest products, and have them on hand. Hell, I'm sure you only do the best that you can every single time, but perhaps show a lesser work that would be the result for the "middle-tier" job. If your finished jobs are as nice as I bet they are, that should help convince them quite a bit. Why would they care to hire someone like you? Anyone else can hold a shaky and cheap camera.

I have had friends, colleagues of sorts, that were decidedly less skilled IMO than I was at my game, but got plenty of gigs asking for a lot more money. I think their ability to do so was based on a few things, but I'm convinced one of them was that they had a very attractive woman in their trio.

And you know what??? They told me directly that they played only the most god darned easiest things that they could possibly find. I mean, stupidly easy and simple. Perhaps you are like me, and it's a little harder to swallow that kind of thing when you're proud, but hey, food is food. If they pay you crap, you don't have to break your back, man.

*this message has not yet been approved by jostenmeat, because the doggy made him drink a scotch, bourbon, and beer.*

 

[Alex2507]

I have had friends, colleagues of sorts, that were decidedly less skilled IMO than I was at my game, but got plenty of gigs asking for a lot more money. I think their ability to do so was based on a few things, but I'm convinced one of them was that they had a very attractive woman in their trio.

The Adams are using Rick !!!!

 

[highfigh]

I have had friends, colleagues of sorts, that were decidedly less skilled IMO than I was at my game, but got plenty of gigs asking for a lot more money. I think their ability to do so was based on a few things, but I'm convinced one of them was that they had a very attractive woman in their trio.

And you know what??? They told me directly that they played only the most god darned easiest things that they could possibly find. I mean, stupidly easy and simple. Perhaps you are like me, and it's a little harder to swallow that kind of thing when you're proud, but hey, food is food. If they pay you crap, you don't have to break your back, man.

RE: what someone plays- most people want to hear familiar songs. If they're played well by real musicians who know what they're playing, it often goes unnoticed. If the songs are played in a way that's reasonably similar to the way they usually hear it, they're satisfied. Blowing over chord changes leaves them bored and glassy-eyed because they don't understand why it has to be played in a different way. The musicians in the group won't get very far if they only play for each other- people don't want to hear technique- they want to hear songs. If someone can entertain the crowd, the crowd will like them but if it's a crowd of people who aren't interested in anything that approaches musically adventurous, tossing in a few Charlie Parker lines will get a response similar to a dog watching TV. It sees it, but doesn't understand it.

It sucks, but it's true. I have a lot of friends who are having a hard time playing in bands and the ones who do best are the ones who can entertain the crowd. I know someone who has gone on year-long world tours with two different bands, sometimes playing to over 500K people, and with his own band- they're playing for a festival at a high school outside of Chicago next month.

 

[highfigh]

I try to educate my potential clients during the sales phase, but ultimately, videography just it's viewed by the general public as being as important as food, shelter, heat, and other vital essentials. I wish I could figure a way to convince people that my services are as important as the air they breathe, but I haven't figured that one out yet. I just have to admit that I've chosen a retirement career that consists of offering services that nobody cares about and, according to public perception, can easily be replaced by Uncle Joe with his $179 Flip camera. I'll remember to tell that to the judge when they haul me away for not paying my property taxes.

Any chance of doing some commercial work? What about local retailers- how many have commercials that look like they were done by high school kids for their film study class?

 

[BMXTRIX]

I can only say that one of the biggest things I've done with my business was to come up with a name that was simle, and availble as a URL. It took about 2 hours or so for me to slap a website together and then from posting online in A/V forums with my company as my signature line, I've gotten a fair bit of work. Last year, about $50K in side work on TOP of my full time job.

It sickens me when people don't have a website that looks decent in this day and age, so if you don't have one, get one. It works great when you can just reference them to your site, if you aren't doing this already. Also, if you have Internet service, you should have free internet space available to you, so the cost of the URL should be the only thing and it should be really REALLY cheap.

I've always negotiated pricing on a top down policy as well, typically being up front about my labor rates, but willing to negotiate if appropriate, or if a client was a good customer. But, starting high - about $80 an hour, then working backwards. I also give a careful schedule of what they should expect so that they understand just how much work is going into their system. Sure, I'll find a way to knock 10% off the total, but that's about as much as people generally should expect.

The price for the repair seems very reasonable to me, but if you aren't in a financial position to cover it, then it is definitely super tough to deal with.

Yeah, you could have called the local shop, spent the time, and the gas, to get it taken care of and save a few bucks... maybe. But, the repair really was necessary and I, for one, think you really did make the best decision.

Hope you have better luck with your business in 2010, it was a tough 2009 for a lot of people.

 

[basspig]

It's been a few days, but I finally got a moment to pickup this thread...

Adam,
Thanks! I waited half a century to find a dame who would love me back the way I love her. Our daughter, although a bit strange, is absolutely the cutest. We get approached by modeling agents in the mall we shop at from time to time, wanting to use her for catalog modeling. But she's hard to work with and bull-headed. A few years ago, we looked into modeling careers but learned they are NOT about making money and are everything about being indentured to the agency.
I've learned quite a bit about Autism. Now I understand why I was put into alternative schooling as a child, due to my inability to control certain disruptive behaviors. I was selectively smart in limited areas, but unaware of my surroundings. I could not play team sports because my brain could not process realtime activities fast enough to understand what was going on in, for example, baseball. I could understand it if I watched a play over and over again in slow motion on a videotape, but when it happens in life, it's like a flash to me.


jostenmeat,
The thing about my work is it's not a 'cookie cutter' type business model. I can only sell one wedding video to the client. Any other client requires another 48 hours of shooting, editing, sound mixing, music tracking, DVD authoring, package/graphics design, debugging and testing of the final disc, etc.
My wife does go with me on meetings when the client is someone we met through the Filipino organization she is a member of. She goes because she can speak to them in Tagalog and she's comfortable with it because she knows these people. But she won't go with me if I'm on a sales visit with an American couple, as she's out of her element. Her English comprehension is not that good either. Sometimes I wonder if things would have been different if I had been able to marry someone with business acumen and who would be a real partner to my venture. Basically she says everything I do is a joke to her and essentially, I'm on my own. My friends give me advice all the time, but when it comes to picking up the phone and cold calling 20-25 businesses a day, it's just me. And I've been sinking into depression since October, when a major concert shoot fell through because of orchestra union politics. I really needed that income to make a tax payment and maybe buy some heating oil for this winter.
The last wedding I did was in 2007. Every sales meeting with couples since then has gone nowhere. I never hear from the client prospects after I give them the price list.
Not long ago, some company that makes sports instructional videos wanted to hire me to shoot an instructional at a nearby university. I was contacted only a week before the job date. As soon as I sent over the contracts and request for deposit to bind the agreement, the other party came back and said the instructor isn't ready and basically, it's been a few months and I have never heard from that prospect since.
I get a lot of this sort of thing. People calling up and asking a lot of questions. I've learned to detect when it's some competitor scouting to find out who the competition is and what we charge. I've also had a rash of competitors flag my ads on Craigslist to get them removed. It's a dirty world of guerilla warfare.


highfigh,
There is nothing I would want more than to not have to do weddings. Bridezillas are the worst people on earth! I'd LOVE commercial work, but the corporations either have in-house video production studios that make CNN look like a small pirate operation, or they have been using the same video production firm for a decade or more and wouldn't consider anyone else.
As for TV commercials for small businesses, I find the damned car dealers won't pay for a commercial because the TV station throughs in production for free with the air time contract. Buy a commercial on the local stations and commit to a certain number of insertions and they produce the ad at no extra cost. Who the heck would pay me a couple grand (the pros charge $11 grand to shoot these spots) to get something they can get for free elsewhere?


BMXTRIX,
I have a web site dedicated to my video productions for general/corporate, and anther site devoted specifically to brides and the sale of wedding video. My wife designed the latter site, which links from the MWHDvideo.com site.

Negotiation doesn't work when you have a product that is deemed 'disposable' by the prospect (the wedding will go on just fine even if they don't hire a videographer)--when we're worlds apart on price. They want to pay nothing (realistically, $200) and I'm talking down from $1500, which is my cheapest full-day package.

As a side note, the think that always yanks my chain is that pro still photographers have little difficulty commanding $2,400-4,000 and sometimes more, to shoot a wedding. It's easier, because the temporal and sound aspects are missing. Just set up, pose the people, check the lighting and press the shutter button. Take a thousand exposures and if you're halfway decent, you'll get 200 good photos and a dozen really great ones. A little Photoshop time, some printing and placing in a bound volume and voila. But shooting video at a wedding is MUCH more work. First you have the photographers who just seem to stand in front of your cameras on purpose. Then you have to deal with getting key people to wear wireless mics. Some churches have ludicrous rules about videography in the venue. We videographers have a LOT of equipment to drag around, not just an SLR around one's neck. There's tripods, multiple cameras, microphones, wireless transmitters/receivers, Steadicam vest and gimbal arm, cables, laptop computer, etc. The shooting day is challenging, nerve-wracking (because you know you could be sued if you miss a shot of Aunt Tillie) and loaded with opportunities for things to go wrong (young kids running and tripping over your tripod leg, falling and breaking a few teeth on the marble floor of the catering hall).
And then if nothing bad happens, you make it home with all the footage, get it transferred to the editing workstation and begin to synch it all together, start getting a sense of the days' events, figure out what's important to keep the pace interesting, while weeding out the slow, boring non-events. You spend the next week working on this, and then when the draft is ready, you burn a window dub and send it to the client for approval. While this is waiting, you start working on designing a themed motion menu for the DVD, and coming up with unique ideas for the DVD package design. It's a $56,000 job, according to Ralph LaBarge's reference book, DVD Authoring and Production.

Back to the thermostat, yeah, I did what I though was the right thing. Even if my regular mechanic did it for $80, it still would have been a 90 minute drive across state, more gas, more time consumed and that would put me in a schedule conflict with picking up my daughter at the end of the school day. Considering all that, I guess I made the right choice. And considering my wife has not said anything further about it, I guess she's forgiven me.

Frankly, the prospects for 2010 scare me. With the people in power clueless as to how to let the economy recover and doing ever more things to damage it, I really don't have much optimism that I will make any sort of profit this coming year.
I think I'm going to shift focus from service provider to content provider. I'm going to focus on stock footage production and also start my dream of making a motion picture. I sat and watched District 9 a couple nights ago, and watched the making of featurettes, and there they were using the same cameras that I have in my studio to shoot much of the film. Why I'm not making movies, it's just ludicrous. So I'm brainstorming for ideas for a never-been-done-before script idea. As long as the authorities don't try to separate me from my home this year for falling behind on the taxes, maybe I might have a chance.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Well, my wife found out about the charge and went ballistic. You know, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I didn't get the heat working, she'd ***** at me. So I paid it and did get it working, but she just *****ed at me for spending money on a credit card that we don't have. I can't win!

One solution to this is have her take care of it next time

 

[basspig]

One solution to this is have her take care of it next time

That would be my thought too, but if I don't take care of these little duties, she calls me 'useless'.

 

[Davemcc]

The last wedding I did was in 2007.

That's not a job. That's not even a hobby, ya know...jus' sayin'.

 

[son-yah-tive]

I'm sorry to hear about the thermostat problem in this weather. Do you have a portable heater to put under the hood to keep your hands warm, or borrow one? When the dealer only charges about 100.00 dollars for something, you know you can do it yourself

 

[basspig]

Davemcc,
Yeah, the full-time job is marketing. Like pushing against a concrete wall, energy is being expended, but no 'work' is done. I've done a couple of concerts in the ensueing time, a seminar for some lawyers and a memorial service, but despite aggressive marketing, the rest of my time is spent meeting with prospects I'll never hear from again. People must thing I'm goint to do their wedding for $200 and when they finally get my price list, it's all over. I'm trying to reach more upscale wedding parties. I live in the richest state in the nation. I have neighbors making a million-five a year and up. We have movie stars and international dignitaries living nearby. Down by the lake at the bottom of my mountain, there live several CEOs of major corporations, also a famous TV show host and the president of a major record label. Thing is, I ain't sh*t to these people, so they won't talk to me. Kinda' ironic, eh?
When I'm not marketing, during the temperate season, I'm working on the renovation of my roof. I'm about midway through a ten year project, demolishing a section at a time and re-framing, sheathing and insulating, etc. It's a flat roof, and a real difficult structure to keep the water out of while under repair.



son-yah-tive,
If you read through this thread, you'll discover that I used to do my own repairs in my younger years. But the house I am living in now has no garage, and an electric heater is totally ineffective when there's a 40mph wind blowing and it's 8°F outside with a wind chill in the negative numbers. Just shoveling snow over the weekend, the skin on my hands started cracking and bleeding again, one of the results of frostbite that I life with to this day. Now when I try to play piano, my knuckles crack and start bleeding again. Any time I work in the cold, I have hell to pay for a couple of weeks after, with the cracked skin and bleeding joints.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That would be my thought too, but if I don't take care of these little duties, she calls me 'useless'.

So, the real answer is a no win situation. Or, after a quote for the job, ask her input?

 

[basspig]

That's why it was a rant.
I called my wife from the shop to ask her input, but she was sleeping, having gotten off her 12 hr night shift a few hours earlier. Yes, I reminded her that I DID call and she DIDN'T pick up the phone.