Rant: $106 to change a Thermostat??!

[Adam]

We've spent $5,200 on electricity so far this year.

WHAT THE?!? Wow, man, that is a lot of coin to have to spend on juice. Have you investigated the overall cost/benefits of solar power?

 

[basspig]

Yup. I wanted to at least have solar to power my computer workstations, which are frequently busy rendering frames for 3D animations, weeks on end. But even a small system would cost me 20 grand and the savings in electricity would take 18 years to realize if only for one thing: if I had full sunlight here. But the sun doesn't reach the ground here in the summer because of the dense forest all around us. It's not even enough solar to keep our solar footlights working. The charge up fine in February, but by June they are barely able to flicker at dusk and are completely dead by full darkness.

Windmill power is another avenue I'm looking at. But the wind is not constant here. If we lived next to a waterfall, it'd be a slam dunk decision to install a water wheel and drive a generator off of it. Alas, there aren't any good solutions. We're being hit with the highest electric rate in the state, because our town refused to have an energy plant built due to NIMBY. Then there's this transmission line project that goes between us and the adjacent state and rumor has it our corridor's customers are paying a surcharge for that project. I divided my kWH used into the total bill and came out with about 24.5 cents/kWH. Definately NOT cheap!

Funny thing is, 20 years ago, I had everything burning. I used to run the big sound system 14 hours a day for background music. I ran a 175W merc vapour lamp in the yard all night via photoelectric eye control. I had a laser printer that was on 24/7 with its 800W fuser heater. We even had a well pump that was running continuously due to a leak down in the well piping at the bottom of the well and all lights were incandescent and fluorescent troffers running all day in the studio. The bill? Less than $80. It was pretty constant through the 80s and 90s. (Wanna laugh? My electric bill in 1965 was $6/month! That was with an ancient tube console TV, a Vornado air conditioner that dated back to 1950, and my Olympic 10-tube mono hi-fi running most of the day.) By 2001, they split the bill into Generation charge and Delivery Charge. That's when our bill started costing about $140-160/mo. Then it steadily increased over the next 8 years. Oddly enough, power outages started becoming extended. Repair service became worse! We experienced outages lasting 8 days for just a little windy weather. Three day outages became common. Never before had I seen longer than an hour or two outage after a severe storm. One exception was 1986, when we had a blizzard of wet snow in October and it broke all the trees and destroyed much of the power infrastructure through out the state. That had us without power for 3 days. We bought a generator that year because of that.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, you are missing a lot, in fact. At the very least is practicality. Even if I could quickly liquidate my assets, it would only pay about two months' worth of property taxes, and then I'd be back to square one, scraping to come up with bill money again AND a big part of my reason for staying alive would be gone. And I don't have another 39 years left to start over.
Fact two: It took me 39 years to accumulate the gear that I have. I sold a lot of vintage gear and reinvested the money in more modern gear that costs less. I actually came out with a net gain in terms of cash. But business losses were far more than the small gain I got out of converting older gear into cash.
Fact three: I once had a promising multimedia business running, until everything--I mean everything.. ground to a halt this year. Clients just stopped calling, bookings dropped to zero.
Fact four: property taxes increased dramatically and we hadn't budgeted for that kind of increase.
Fact five: energy costs increased 40% over the year prior.
We've spent $5,200 on electricity so far this year. That's more than in any year prior. We used 6kw avg per day LESS than this time last year, but the delivery cost and taxes are higher than last year.

In short, this has been a crazy year, but I'm not going to go backwards to the way I was living 50 years ago, hopping from apartment to apartment, didn't even have a working TV back then. I worked and slaved 7 days a week for several decades, working overtime, sometimes two jobs, so I could save enough to buy gear that I wanted before I retired. The wife and kid are important, but A/V is the core of my existence.

Oh, and no we don't have cable. We don't have regular cell service. I have a prepaid cell that I put in $10 every 3 months to keep it active. I don't have a mortgage to pay. Just the taxes, which make the mortgage on my first house look like lunch money. If I wasn't so tied to the equipment, I'd be 'free' to move anywhere in the country, or leave the country. But it would destroy my identity as a human being to give it all up.

Being charged that much for a thermostat sucks but A) it's winter and you already have frostbitten hands, so additional exposure to cold isn't going to help you. It's also not going to make your wife happy if it persists. B), not all thermostats are the same and some require a lot more disassembly to get to them, like some Cadillac motors. I haven't worked on an Explorer but shop labor rates aren't negotiable and they work from a flat rate book. If you had explained your situation, they may have cut a deal. Be happy you don't have an STS or something like that- replacing the starter costs about $1200 because the intake manifold needs to come out. The other main point I want to make is that if you had left the bad thermostat in place long enough, you would have done irreparable damage to the motor because a cold motor is far from efficient and when the coolant temperature sensor sees low temperature, the ECM delivers a lot more fuel and some of it won't burn so it's forced into the crankcase and this dilutes the oil, and that causes a lot more wear. Also, the unburned gas in the exhaust will eventually kill the O2 sensors, which will cause the ECM to go to default settings, none of which are great for performance or longevity- they're set so the vehicle can get to a place where the driver isn't stranded.

The $106 bill came at a really bad time but it's better than having major repair bills.

Good luck in the New Year.

 

[just-some-guy]

and a bad, stuck open = no heat. stat will cause bad gas milage. more fuel is needed to run a cold engine. so, over time, this repair will pay for itself.

 

[Sheep]

Not Quite. The gasoline condenses on the cylinder walls when they're cold, which causes you to consume more gas for the same power output.

And I'm sorry, but 106 for a thermostat at a dealership is cheap. We charge 115 for an Oil Change.

SheepStar

 

[highfigh]

Not Quite. The gasoline condenses on the cylinder walls when they're cold, which causes you to consume more gas for the same power output.

And I'm sorry, but 106 for a thermostat at a dealership is cheap. We charge 115 for an Oil Change.

SheepStar

Not quite what? The ECT and MAF tell the ECM how much fuel to deliver and if there's a conflict between the two sensors, some pre-determined default will be used. Low ECT reading with dense air needs more fuel than high at high altitude. Along with some fuel condensation at low temp (which only happens briefly with an open thermostat, once the in-cylinder temps reach a certain level, it also becomes an issue of improper atomization, which is often achieved by spraying the fuel on the back of the valves, which are hot from combustion and the fuel becomes vapor immediately upon contact.

The point is, a cold motor isn't efficient and long term problems will occur if the open T-Stat isn't changed, especially in cold weather. I know someone who had a new Chevy van and never bothered to change the thermostat. He sold it with about 45K miles on it and the second owner had to re-work the heads completely.

 

[basspig]

Well these are interesting points about fuel injected engines. But I got over 300K miles out of my '68 Caddy and I ran it for many years with the T-stat removed. It had a tendency to overheat when climbing the mountains here, so I pulled it. But that 472 V8 always produced more than enough heat even without the 'stat. When the late 70s came and synthetic oil became available, I switched over to synthetic. The motor was still great when I finally junked the car because the body was falling apart due to rust.

But all that is aside from the thrust of my point:

1. My wife was extremely angry that I spent the money on this repair instead of taking serious her request to turn back if there was going to be a charge.

2. If I were thinking straight (I don't get clarity of mind until about 3PM--it was 8:30AM at the time) I would have called my regular mechanic and enquired the cost.

3. A new thermostat cost $7.98 and a gasket about 50 cents. I could get a big tube of silicon rubber sealant for $5 at Home Depot. All told, less than $15 worth of parts.


The truck never had good heat since the day we bought it. It had just come off lease, was immaculate inside & out and most importantly, underneath including the frame. We got it for peanuts when the dealers had lots full of large SUVs and no one wanting to buy them. The dealer was desparate to clear the lot and we benefitted with a rediculously low price. Five months later, they mailed us a letter, offering $5K more than we paid for it, but my wife ignored it. Once I outfitted it with HID lighting, the vehicle was 100% satisfactory to both of us, except the lack of heat.

BTW, I'm running synthetic oil on it and it averages 26MPG according to the on board trip computer when driving cross-state.

At least my wife finally stopped rehashing the topic since Christmas. Now she just complains that I look like Dumbledore in Harry Potter because my beard's getting too long..

 

[MidnightSensi]

A lot of times with fuel injection when something is out of wack they error on the side of caution and dump fuel, rather than risk the engine knocking. Also, the oil is specificied for the car running at operating temperature, if a thermostat goes bad then the oil viscosity recommendation is wrong.

It was good you got it fixed, 100 bucks really isn't that terrible. Yeah its not a lot of money in parts, but by the time they get done with labor, power, insurance, parts, and so forth I doubt that was a huge lick for them.

 

[highfigh]

Well these are interesting points about fuel injected engines. But I got over 300K miles out of my '68 Caddy and I ran it for many years with the T-stat removed. It had a tendency to overheat when climbing the mountains here, so I pulled it. But that 472 V8 always produced more than enough heat even without the 'stat. When the late 70s came and synthetic oil became available, I switched over to synthetic. The motor was still great when I finally junked the car because the body was falling apart due to rust.

But all that is aside from the thrust of my point:

1. My wife was extremely angry that I spent the money on this repair instead of taking serious her request to turn back if there was going to be a charge.

2. If I were thinking straight (I don't get clarity of mind until about 3PM--it was 8:30AM at the time) I would have called my regular mechanic and enquired the cost.

3. A new thermostat cost $7.98 and a gasket about 50 cents. I could get a big tube of silicon rubber sealant for $5 at Home Depot. All told, less than $15 worth of parts.


The truck never had good heat since the day we bought it. It had just come off lease, was immaculate inside & out and most importantly, underneath including the frame. We got it for peanuts when the dealers had lots full of large SUVs and no one wanting to buy them. The dealer was desparate to clear the lot and we benefitted with a rediculously low price. Five months later, they mailed us a letter, offering $5K more than we paid for it, but my wife ignored it. Once I outfitted it with HID lighting, the vehicle was 100% satisfactory to both of us, except the lack of heat.

BTW, I'm running synthetic oil on it and it averages 26MPG according to the on board trip computer when driving cross-state.

At least my wife finally stopped rehashing the topic since Christmas. Now she just complains that I look like Dumbledore in Harry Potter because my beard's getting too long..

A '68 Caddy had nothing on it that could have shut the motor down when a problem occurred- it was like an Etch-A-Sketch compared with what you do now with graphics.

As far as solar and wind power- what about the state and federal incentives? Fed alone is about 30% up to a certain limit.

Here are some links:
http://www.seia.org/
http://www.bdbatteries.com/acdcsolar.php
http://www.solarenergy.org/

 

[MidnightSensi]

A '68 Caddy had nothing on it that could have shut the motor down when a problem occurred- it was like an Etch-A-Sketch compared with what you do now with graphics.

Thing was probably knocking so bad it sounded like someone dropping marbles as it went up the mountain.

 

[basspig]

My Caddy ran beautifully. No knocking. I ran 105 octane gas in it back then.
It was the Ford LTDs of the mid 70s that were clatter buckets. I had a friend who bought one and it pinged at any level above idle. The only time my Caddy would ping a little was one time when I was doing 120 on the highway and put the pedal to the floor causing the transmission to downshift and the engine to rev up under hard acceleration. That, and my '61 Lincoln Continental were terrific runners on the highway.

Around here, Solar power is impractical because we have no sunlight reaching the ground with the density of forest here. It's 20° cooler here at the house than downtown on a summer day because of that, but the downside is solar panels would not work at all. The solar footlights along our driveway don't work at all in the summer when the foliage is in full bloom.

Windmills are structures over 18' and such structures are banned by town building codes.

 

[AllenW]

Comparing dealer parts cost to discount parts suppliers is not accurate, I'm betting you compare the pep boys type of stats to one from NAPA or the dealers and you'll see a quality difference.

Also that Pep Boys stat that fails, you get to bring it back, the dealer has to deal with it should theirs fail.

Couple of things, a $106 to change a stat is a deal, the cost of doing business has gone up every year and even the local non dealer shops are getting higher amounts for labor and parts.

Also it pays to read what's covered and not when signing for a extended warranty, we didn't years ago and had the same situation as you, only with a seat warmer and $50 deductible and then finding there was a $75 diagnostic fee all for a under $40 part and 15 minutes to install.

We lucked out and canceled the contract and got almost all our money back.

I don't blame ya for having them fix it though, I live in Minn and know all about working on cars in the winter.

Once did a fuel pump in a 67 chevelle in -27 temps along side the road.

Good luck

Al

 

[1kwik72]

Being in the auto repair business I can tell you from our side dealing with the extended warranty companies sucks also.

I avoid dealing with them like the plague if I can. They try every way possible to avoid paying a claim, then if they do they will only pay some discounted labor rate, cheep parts no tax no shop supplies etc.

Our shop like every other has fixed and variable costs that determine our labor rate. Your not having a warm place to work is a perfect example, our gas bill last winter averaged $1200 per month. That is part of what your $XX.XX per hour pays for, in addition to about 30 other costs that the business incurs on a daily basis.

The other thing I can tell you is the days of the $5 t-stat and 50 cent gaskets are coming to an end. Parts costs have risen about 30% on average around here. Buying a quality part that will last longer than to just get the customer out the door is just good business practice. If the shop has to do it over because of a faulty part they are loosing money & have the potential to have at the least an inconvinenced customer.

For the record, book time on your thermostat is .9hr & the factory thermostat has a list price of $34.74 the ford specific extended life antifreeze is also quite pricy at about $16/gal retail. At our shop OTD for this job would run $150.13 using factory parts.

Craig

 

[basspig]

Points taken. And we're now wiser for the experience. Next time, unless it's a catastrophic failure, we'll wait and do the repairs at home, if possible.

I really can't afford to pay people that earn effectively 20 times what I earn. It's economically NOT viable.

Funny thing is, I'm in my own business, and almost no one wants to pay a videographer's rates. Let's see... a $1500 wedding shoot, 8-10 hours shooting/traveling on the wedding date. 30-40 hours editing, producing, packaging the DVD.. works out to less than $30/hr before taxes. Now considering I haven't successfully sold a wedding shoot, due to being constantly told I cost too much, since 2007, my effective hourly rate goes way below min wage. So I'm reduced to being a telemarketer for my own business, earning next to nothing. So it's absurd that I even bothered to take the truck in for such a minor repair. What an idiot.

 

[Adam]

Now considering I haven't successfully sold a wedding shoot, due to being constantly told I cost too much, since 2007, my effective hourly rate goes way below min wage.

I hope this doesn't come across poorly, but have you considered lowering your rate? $1000 (or even $750) for a shoot is a lot better than nothing. You just said that your effective wage is below minimum, so if you've got that kind of time to spare, it wouldn't hurt to do the jobs for less, would it?

 

[lsiberian]

That stinks buddy, but it's not surprising. For many of us 105 isn't a big deal, but I understand it is for some folks. In our area changing the Transmission fluid costs more than that. I'd do it myself if I had a garage, but still that sucks.

 

[highfigh]

Points taken. And we're now wiser for the experience. Next time, unless it's a catastrophic failure, we'll wait and do the repairs at home, if possible.

I really can't afford to pay people that earn effectively 20 times what I earn. It's economically NOT viable.

Funny thing is, I'm in my own business, and almost no one wants to pay a videographer's rates. Let's see... a $1500 wedding shoot, 8-10 hours shooting/traveling on the wedding date. 30-40 hours editing, producing, packaging the DVD.. works out to less than $30/hr before taxes. Now considering I haven't successfully sold a wedding shoot, due to being constantly told I cost too much, since 2007, my effective hourly rate goes way below min wage. So I'm reduced to being a telemarketer for my own business, earning next to nothing. So it's absurd that I even bothered to take the truck in for such a minor repair. What an idiot.

With frostbitten hands, I'm not sure I would have worked on my own vehicle until they healed.

Why did you run 105 octane? Above a certain point, anything above 93 is a waste. If the motor ran hot, had high compression and was in a hot & dry location, it should never have had any detonation issues and the motor wasn't designed for it.

Local airport?

 

[basspig]

Adam,

I've tried experimenting with lower prices, but I found it only brings on the 'grinders'--clients who know you're desparate and will take every advantage of you.

I recently negotiated a price for a 'sweet sixteen' party for someone my wife knows. During the negotiation, it became apparent that she wanted a major production, with multilocation shooting, riding a limo and shooting a reality TV-style video in addition to the reception. I gave her a very low initial price of $1495, as it was right up there with a wedding shoot for complexity (my wedding prices ranged from $1495-$2995). After an hour, we negotiated down to $1100. I wasn't feeling that the job was worth it at this point. And the woman wasn't sure if she wanted to pay it. She told us she'd let us know next week. Before we left, she motioned us over to an open window. What happened next just was the heigh of absurdity. She pointed to a brand new $80,000 black Mercedes that she proudly announced she'd taken delivery of yesterday. We said have a nice day and left.

Another couple, members of the same organization my wife is in, wanted a video done of their 25th vow renewal. I came up with a friend to friend low price of $450. He countered with $150. I turned down the job as I knew it would not be profitable. They guy was the head of some state power authority and his wife was a practicing doctor. They lived in a house that only James Bond could afford.

I don't have that much free time. It's mainly taken up with marketing, repairing my roof during the warmer months, and taking care of my daughter, who was diagnosed with Autism last year. While becoming educated on the condition, I recognized many of the symptoms in myself, when I was a child--in fact many--like the 'one track mindedness' and inability to multitask, as well as poor social skills, are all attributes of Asberger's syndrome. I was never diagnosed because the condition was not recognized when I was a kid. But now I understand a lot more about what lead to the bizarre life I have lived.


Highfigh,

My hands lose pretty much all their function when the temp is below 50°F. Even in the house, where it's 55°F, I find them stiff. I have little feeling in my fingers. Just like when one gets out of the dentist's office after anesthesia, and can't feel one's lips, drinking from a cup just results in spilled liquid. My fingers can't feel or grasp a tool when it's cold because there's no tactile feedback.

I ran Esso gas in my Caddy up to about 1971. The station had a sticker on the pump stating "105+ Octane" on it. A few years later, I couldn't get it anymore. Most of my older cars started to have severe pinging issues with the newer, lower octane gas. But the end of the 70s, I was resorting to retarding the ignition timing to reduce the ping, but at great cost of performance. When that car was pretty new, running on Esso hi-test gas, it could burn rubber for half a block easily. Gawd I miss those days!

 

[Adam]

Mark, thanks for the reply! Sounds like you've had the "privilege" of dealing with a bunch of tightwads. Maybe that's how they afford those cars and houses, but dang. $150? That's insulting (well, I think so).

Best wishes with your daughter. I don't know enough to say any more than that. My understanding is that Autism comes with its own set of challenges, but I think that we each have those from some source or another.

Take care.

 

[highfigh]

Highfigh,

My hands lose pretty much all their function when the temp is below 50°F. Even in the house, where it's 55°F, I find them stiff. I have little feeling in my fingers. Just like when one gets out of the dentist's office after anesthesia, and can't feel one's lips, drinking from a cup just results in spilled liquid. My fingers can't feel or grasp a tool when it's cold because there's no tactile feedback.

I ran Esso gas in my Caddy up to about 1971. The station had a sticker on the pump stating "105+ Octane" on it. A few years later, I couldn't get it anymore. Most of my older cars started to have severe pinging issues with the newer, lower octane gas. But the end of the 70s, I was resorting to retarding the ignition timing to reduce the ping, but at great cost of performance. When that car was pretty new, running on Esso hi-test gas, it could burn rubber for half a block easily. Gawd I miss those days!

Personally, I'd look for a service shop that is reputable (he said, not knowing a damn thing about the quality of shop in CT) and find one with reasonable rates. The $105 bill was from a dealer, right? I wouldn't go to a dealer with a vehicle that is well known, in terms of it's service needs. In my experience, they don't really have any kind of edge on the independent shops.

If you had pinging and it was back when your distributor had points, I would have looked at those and the timing advance. Also, carbon deposits are well known for causing what you describe. Your motor didn't have such high compression that it should have been a problem unless you modified it or had it modded. If the timing chain was stretched, it could have caused this, too.

Remember- the only real difference between high and lower octane is that low octane burns faster. Verifying that the timing is set correctly is a must when using low octane but when a motor is designed for high octane, the cam, timing, compression and fuel delivery are different from a motor designed for low octane. OTOH, that was back when we didn't care much about how much gas was used. I remember going to Kansas for Thanksgiving '71 and two little gas stations were having a price war- one had it for ¢16.9 and the one across the street was at ¢14.9 and they were about a nickel less than hte last station we passed. My truck could be on empty and at the low price, it would cost less than $3.50 for a full tank.