Question About Small Subwoofer Accuracy

Gryfter

Gryfter

Audioholic Intern
I'll be getting some new speakers in the next day or two and will be needing a sub to go with them. Generally this wouldn't be much of an issue with so many good choices but this sub will be in a small apartment room with neighbors on one (thin) wall and below me so I can't have anything too loud. I would like something small and accurate, something that will sound good and fill the space so my system doesn't sound naked while watching movies or listening to music but I can't have it rattling anything... well anything really.

To give you guys a bit more perspective I was looking at the A2-300 but that is extreme overkill and I would have to leave it off for most of the time.

I know how important a good subwoofer is and I'm partially neutering my system by buying small but unfortunately I don't have much choice.

I was looking at both the ASW-8 and the ASW-10 from The Speaker Company (both being sold by members here) but I don't know much about these subs.

Any, guidance and/or opinions would be appreciated.

Thank You.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I'll be getting some new speakers in the next day or two and will be needing a sub to go with them. Generally this wouldn't be much of an issue with so many good choices but this sub will be in a small apartment room with neighbors on one (thin) wall and below me so I can't have anything too loud. I would like something small and accurate, something that will sound good and fill the space so my system doesn't sound naked while watching movies or listening to music but I can't have it rattling anything... well anything really.

To give you guys a bit more perspective I was looking at the A2-300 but that is extreme overkill and I would have to leave it off for most of the time.

I know how important a good subwoofer is and I'm partially neutering my system by buying small but unfortunately I don't have much choice.

I was looking at both the ASW-8 and the ASW-10 from The Speaker Company (both being sold by members here) but I don't know much about these subs.

Any, guidance and/or opinions would be appreciated.

Thank You.
I think these would be great apartment subs. However, you may want to lay it on it's side or get a subdude for it because it is down-firing. IMO it's a great musical sub, it doesn't sound bloated or boomy and I haven't heard any disturbing port noise from them either. Because of their low price, you can always get another down the road too if you move and need more output.

I've had quite a few subs now and while these are the smallest, and with the least output, they are still very enjoyable to listen too.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
If the intention is primarily music, then you ideally will use two subs of identical design; one near each satellite speaker. You must also use an active crossover to high-pass the signal to the satellites and low-pass the signal to the subwoofers.

For HT use, one is fine. But a dramatic increase in SQ is the normal result with proper stereo subwoofers when music is the main priority. With twin units, one can get idea/seamless/perfect integration of the subwoofers and small main speakers resulting in full range 3 way SQ/integration quality.

If you are crossing very low (40-50Hz) with an aggressive filter rate (24db/octave or steeper) in a medium to small size room, then ignore the above info.

-Chris
 
Gryfter

Gryfter

Audioholic Intern
If the intention is primarily music, then you ideally will use two subs of identical design; one near each satellite speaker. You must also use an active crossover to high-pass the signal to the satellites and low-pass the signal to the subwoofers.

For HT use, one is fine. But a dramatic increase in SQ is the normal result with proper stereo subwoofers when music is the main priority. With twin units, one can get idea/seamless/perfect integration of the subwoofers and small main speakers resulting in full range 3 way SQ/integration quality.

If you are crossing very low (40-50Hz) with an aggressive filter rate (24db/octave or steeper) in a medium to small size room, then ignore the above info.

-Chris
I made it through the first sentence then my brain started to melt a little. ;) I understand the end result it's the process behind it that causes me pain. The only thing crossing right now are my eyes... I've got a lot to learn.

Seriously though I don't even have my speakers yet (I'll be ordering them in the morning) and this is my first foray into serious home audio so as soon as I get them be sure that I'll be asking about all this, what it means and how to do it.

One question I can ask now though;
If my time is split 80/20 movies to music but my speakers are lacking in the lower ranges would it be better to go with two smaller subs instead of one large one?

Yes this equipment will be in a pretty small room with lots of furniture.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I made it through the first sentence then my brain started to melt a little. ;) I understand the end result it's the process behind it that causes me pain. The only thing crossing right now are my eyes... I've got a lot to learn.
I'll re-explain in easier terms for you. I'm sorry if I was in a hurry and did not make it very clear. My previous statements will be italicized, to be followed by a better clarified version.

"You must also use an active crossover to high-pass the signal to the satellites and low-pass the signal to the subwoofers."
=
High-pass means the frequencies over the xover point. So, if you cross at 80Hz, then this means frequencies over 80Hz pass to the speaker. Low-pass means the frequencies under the xover point. So, if you cross at 80Hz, then this means frequencies under 80 Hz 'pass' to the speaker.

"For HT use, one is fine. But a dramatic increase in SQ is the normal result with proper stereo subwoofers when music is the main priority. With twin units, one can get idea/seamless/perfect integration of the subwoofers and small main speakers resulting in full range 3 way SQ/integration quality."
=
HT(home theater) is not as demanding for sound quality. Movies do not have the same level of realism as do the high quality music recordings. Movies have the priority of special effects reproduction and center channel dialogue reproduction clarity as the most important factors. This being the case, you also do not need the same level of seamless bass transition from the main L and R channels to the subwoofer/low bass. But a very powerful, very deep bass is very useful for movies to fully create the huge range of low frequency effects present in modern movies. Music needs more coherency where the deep bass transitions to upper bass (the region where you cross over subwoofer to L and R mains) due the focus not being special F/X, but instead things like drum sets, bass guitar, cellos, etc as the primary sounds in this range. Because the physical lengths in air of these frequencies(at and around xover point) being to become short(relatively), it's difficult to get the waves (i presume you are familiar with basic wave physics, etc.) to sum to target unity at both main speakers from a single sub at the same time unless the sub is in the worst possible place(center of front wall between main speakers) where it will have the lowest ouput SPL and worst response possible(very very rough frequency response) due to this room position.

"If you are crossing very low (40-50Hz) with an aggressive filter rate (24db/octave or steeper) in a medium to small size room, then ignore the above info."
=
40Hz, for example, has a relatively long physical wavelength. As such, this makes it much easier to get the subwoofer to sum to ideal target response with both main L and R speakers at once even when the subwoofer is located on the extreme one side of an averaged sized room(this is of course not true if you have a HUGE room dimension and have the speakers positioned along the width of this HUGE dimension; 25' or larger could be defined as huge for purposes herein).

One question I can ask now though;
If my time is split 80/20 movies to music but my speakers are lacking in the lower ranges would it be better to go with two smaller subs instead of one large one?
Pay attention to the xover frequencies I mentioned earlier. For music, two subs are superior (one sub placed on each side of room), no question, if you are crossing around 70-80 Hz. If you are crossing around 40-50Hz, then one single larger sub will be fine. Only full size speakers with substantial bass output should be crossed at 40-50Hz. Two way speakers using 7" or smaller mid-bass drivers should be crossed at 70-80Hz, or even 90Hz, to relieve the drivers of most stress, thus allowing larger, more clear dynamics. Hand over the LF to subwoofers - but two subs would be needed for seamless sound transition for music. For movies, it just does not much matter if you have one or two subs, so far as the seamless effect - as movies primarily deal with special F/X bass.

-Chris
 
Gryfter

Gryfter

Audioholic Intern
Thanks again for the explanation, the HT stuff I generally new ( just not in such a well explained, detailed and easy to understand way) so thank you. It's the crossover stuff that had me confused a bit, I knew the general explanation (the frequency at which one component drops off and another begins) but your explanation helped me better visualize it and understand it's appropriate uses. For some reason I was picturing crossover setup as something you have to physically change on the speakers/sub with how you set them up.

When it comes to crossovers I'm assuming it's something I am able to (have to) set it up at the receiver level? (Will Audyssey do it for me) If I know my speakers cut off at the low end of 80Hz would I then want my Sub to pick up at it's high of 85Hz for some overlap or right at 80Hz exactly where my fronts stop?

I really appreciate all the help, I know how aggravating it can be some times trying to explain technical knowledge like this to people (me) who are completely clueless in all but the most rudimentary areas of said subject.

-Adam.
 
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F

fredk

Audioholic General
Hey Gryfter. I understand where you are coming from. When I picked up my system I really didn't understand a lot about subs and the role they can play in an HT.

Do you know what your building is constructed from? I ask because I am in a poured concrete building and am finding that it makes for great sound isolation. I have a sub that reaches down to 20Hz with authority and play my movies at reference (loud) and have never had a complaint. I even watched Serenity at midnight (in the middle of the week). I wasn't thinking and when the windows started rattling, I though sure someone was going to come banging on my door. :eek: Nobody did.

Also, just because you have a powerful sub dosn't mean you have to play it full bore. You can always turn it down.

Another avenue to consider is DIY. This CSS kit is small footprint, but will reach deep in a small room(down to 15Hz). A smaller sub like this trades off volume to reach that low, but that will not be an issue for you. If you are handy and have access to a few tools, this is a good way to go.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
Movies do not have the same level of realism as do the high quality music recordings. Movies have the priority of special effects reproduction and center channel dialogue reproduction clarity as the most important factors.
This was certainly true in the past, but I have found some recent movies with stellar sound tracks even on DVD. I think that the move to Bluray will also push the quality of movie tracks higher. Concert discs will also give you reference quality sound (the good ones anyway).
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
For movies, it just does not much matter if you have one or two subs, so far as the seamless effect - as movies primarily deal with special F/X bass.

-Chris
I would have to disagree with you on this one(first time for me). Localization is a major issue with subs in movies. If you want good movie bass it's best acheived with a multiple sub setup. As an avid movie watcher I can tell you there is nothing worse than localized bass. Multiple subs changes that dramatically and lets you crank the sub up to really get the room shaking.

Remember the OP is talking about gettin an 8inch sub so chances are they will be using a pretty high crossover.

In response to the OP get a pair of Dayton 12" if you want a good low cost sub setup.

As far as sound quality some soundtracks are amazing quality and better than a lot of music out there. As always it's a matter of the studio more than the source itself. Plus voices are the most difficult thing to get right in my experience.
 
Gryfter

Gryfter

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the input guys.

@Fredk
I wouldn't be surprised if this place was made out of cardboard, the acoustics not only suck but are very, very weird. I also know for a fact that my neighbors will be able to hear my sub and speakers even on a medium settings because I can hear theirs. the desk in my room is L shaped and I plan on putting the sub between it and the wall where there is quite a bit of open and unusable space (it's almost like it was made for a sub) but I don't want to have to continuously crawl under the desk to adjust the levels.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Matt sold me his 8" sub for $70 which will hold me over until my wallet recuperates from my receiver and speaker purchase. Once I get a chance to hear it I can decide whether I want to just grab another 8" or a single 10". I will definitely not be buying 2 12" subs for a tiny apartment bedroom. If/when I move I can then re evaluate my system and upgrade as necessary.

No matter what I wont be making another purchase until I have everything together because at this point I have no clue how any of this will sound. I have been using these cheap Sony speakers I got for free with a $300 receiver from Circuit City I bought in 1998, my expectations and HT experience is so low that the FedEX guy could fart while holding the box my speakers are coming in and I'd probably be impressed.


Any way, thanks again for all the help. Even if I'm unable to take all your advice right away I'm still learning a hell of a lot from it.
 
B

biz97

Junior Audioholic
I would have to disagree with you on this one(first time for me). Localization is a major issue with subs in movies. If you want good movie bass it's best achieved with a multiple sub setup. As an avid movie watcher I can tell you there is nothing worse than localized bass. Multiple subs changes that dramatically and lets you crank the sub up to really get the room shaking.

Remember the OP is talking about gettin an 8inch sub so chances are they will be using a pretty high crossover.

In response to the OP get a pair of Dayton 12" if you want a good low cost sub setup.

As far as sound quality some soundtracks are amazing quality and better than a lot of music out there. As always it's a matter of the studio more than the source itself. Plus voices are the most difficult thing to get right in my experience.

Agreed. I think that smooth bass response and thus multiple subs is a priority for both Music and Movies. I know there have been a few thoughts and some research on how many subs it takes to achieve "optimal bass" in room (2, 3, 4, etc.?).
For music, I've seen many people say they have no need for a sub since the main speakers they use go "low enough". I tend to disagree with that idea since my personal experience has shown an overall improvement with adding a decent sub (or two) as best as possible even with basic bass management (i.e. AVR abilities) to the speakers I have had. When I have the space (for extra components) I'd love to see how a stereo sub setup compares to distributing the combined signal across 2 subs as I am doing now.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Good read, Matt... Thanks for posting. I simply weigh it as another opinion.

On the point of localized bass, Any digital movie soundtrack is made up of (insert channel #'s here) of localized sound in respect to its assigned channel. Never ONCE have I thought that the bass was out of place in a movie soundstage. The effect just isnt the same as imaging in music. If you're hearing localized bass in a movie, turn the freakin thing down a bit. Thats simply my take on my experience with one sub and HT...

Having only 1 sub can steer the imaging a bit with music, that i'll agree with only because I've noticed it.

I see this, not as nitpicky- it is important, as moot for A LOT of individuals just looking for a better experience. A large majority of HT users dont have the room treatments and proper placements to optimize their setup anyways. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for an "audioholic" but for the majority of us and practical use (waf, space, etc) one sub for HT should be just fine. For the serious HT guys with dedicated spaces, you likely already have multiple subs or have plans for it...

For you critical music listeners, you know more than I do and you can talk about that... I have noticed a difference having two subs with music though.
 
B

biz97

Junior Audioholic
Good read, Matt... Thanks for posting. I simply weigh it as another opinion.

On the point of localized bass, Any digital movie soundtrack is made up of (insert channel #'s here) of localized sound in respect to its assigned channel. Never ONCE have I thought that the bass was out of place in a movie soundstage. The effect just isnt the same as imaging in music. If you're hearing localized bass in a movie, turn the freakin thing down a bit. Thats simply my take on my experience with one sub and HT...

Having only 1 sub can steer the imaging a bit with music, that i'll agree with only because I've noticed it.

I see this, not as nitpicky- it is important, as moot for A LOT of individuals just looking for a better experience. A large majority of HT users dont have the room treatments and proper placements to optimize their setup anyways. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for an "audioholic" but for the majority of us and practical use (waf, space, etc) one sub for HT should be just fine. For the serious HT guys with dedicated spaces, you likely already have multiple subs or have plans for it...

For you critical music listeners, you know more than I do and you can talk about that... I have noticed a difference having two subs with music though.
I agree with a lot of the above but turning the sub down doesn't always "fix" the problem. Especially if the speakers used for the other5-7 channels have to be crossed high.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with a lot of the above but turning the sub down doesn't always "fix" the problem. Especially if the speakers used for the other5-7 channels have to be crossed high.
I was simply implying that in "most" cases where localized bass was an issue, its likely that those frequencies are a little "hot". I get what you're saying though... In a sub/sat configuration where the xover is set really high, there are parts of the track that could seem "localized". Price you pay for the convenience of a "sat" system. Rarely are those type systems set up optimally anyways. Most "enthusiasts" avoid such setups unless there are other limiting factors, in which case, the sub is possibly one of many and the least pressing issue at that point...
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I agree with a lot of the above but turning the sub down doesn't always "fix" the problem. Especially if the speakers used for the other5-7 channels have to be crossed high.
Turning the sub down almost always helps in my experience, but not as much as a crawl test.

Place your subs with a crawl test.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Ya, but does this article meant using your two front main speakers with their corresponding subwoofers?
Point #5 in his "things you need to avoid".
5) Running main speakers in “Large” or “Full-Range” mode. This will cause a conflict between the manner in which your main speakers reproduce low frequencies and that of your subwoofers. It will also cost you the advantage of lower distortion from your main speakers by relieving them of distortion-causing bass duties.
Are they referring to a two-channel stereo system?
I think he's addressing adding subs to any system

And with their proper connections and positions according to this basis?
Um, sure.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Well Matt, the first point, I knew that. And I was not referring to that (running your two front mains Full Range).
What I meant is crossing your two front mains at the appropriate frequency to perfectly integrated with your sub in a 2-channel stereo system.
Sorry, I should have explain it.

As for the other points, were good. :)
 
E

Emig5m

Enthusiast
I could always tell where a sub was in a room even though they say you can't locate low frequencies - if it's that you can't locate low frequencies, it definitely sounds lop-sided. The only way I'm happy to use one sub is to place it smack dab between the two front mains. Then it sounds more standard stereo-like and not lop sided. I like the idea of using two subs later on when I move the system to a bigger room, but right now my single sub works great when placed right between the two front mains.

Since music playback performance is more finicky to most people since with movies you might be more distracted by the visuals of the movie, I find that if I do all my tuning of the sub for 2-channel music playback - the rest falls into place perfectly. I normally use a sine wave sweep to get the sub and front mains volume matched since by ear with a movie you'll almost always set it too hot making music sound overly boomy and then set the crossover to whatever gets the most seamless integration. When you get it right, the sub and mains will work and sound together as one entity.

In the past I always had a real hard time integrating subs and mains seamlessly so I always got frustrated with my attempts and gave up for music playback and just used the front mains full range and then the sub only got powered on for movies. But now that I've been able to learn to seamlessly integrate a sub it's allowed me to take the sound of my two-channel music to another level by allowing me to place my mains and seating for the best imaging which would normally make the bass roll off too much and still keeping good bass with much-much more lower extension.

I can understand why so many people with tower speakers try a powered sub and don't like the "initial" out of place sound of it for music and think their speakers sound better on their own as it all comes down to taking the time to get that seamless integration. The less the know-how of doing it properly you know, the harder and longer it takes. It's not plug and play easy and takes some time and patience to get right, but once you do, you take your system overall both music and movies to a higher level. I'll never go back to using just the front mains for music which is ironic as I always used to hate using a sub for 2-channel music until I took the time to actually try to get it right.
 
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