Qualities of an Exceptional Amp

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Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Dynamic Power

Damned if I know what they mean by "dynamic power". If those watts rms specs are for real I wouldn't worry about it.
d.b.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
So what you mean is really who knows how or what they are doing to get that number as there is no set standard? Acording to some other manufactures way it might have 300watts of dynamic power or only 30 according to someone else?
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Dynamic power

Dynamic power, whatever that means, is not an accepted measurement by any competent engineer that I know of. In answer to your question about standards as it applies to power amps: It depends mostly on the marketing department these days.
d.b.
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
Dan,
Would just adding more capacitance in the amp remedy the charge vs. discharge rate, or would the size of the transfrmr have to be increased proportionately?
Also, have you ever checked out odysseyaudio.com? I thinking of getting a stratos in the future but am leery of a breakin time that exceeds the 30 day return policy & the fact that,if unplugged or turned off,this thing might take a day to be ready for use again. Typical of a class A/AB amp?
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Power Amplifiers

Both the transformers and the caps. Now you need to think about your rectifier diodes and will they handle the surge currents, and that's just for the power supply. Can your output transistors handle the increase in power? are they adequately heat sinked for the increase in power? My guess is that you have a lot to think about. I don't generally comment about other manufacutrers amps as a rule and I'm not about to break that.
Dan Banquer
R.E. Designs
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
I agree that different amps when level matched in an ABX can sound identical. But that's not the way I listen to music. I listen over extended periods of time. I listen until I get ear fatigue. I listen until I can get all the details I can hear. I listen until a musical piece becomes nearly a part of my subconcious.
ABX testing does not preclude any of that. You may match the two amps (or whatever) at earbleed levels if you wish. You may listen to fully identified A and fully identified B for as long as you wish (minutes, hours, even days) with whatever program material you desire. All it does is "blindfold" you (figuratively) when you move the switch to "X", and ask you to identify whether X is A or B. You can listen to X as long as you wish, too. If you can't identify X correctly more than about half the time, then the existence of audible differences between A and B is most likely nil.

The ONLY thing properly done ABX testing does is to test your ability to hear a difference when you don't know which item you are hearing. In other words, it removes bias as much as it is possible to do so.

Of course, as Dan Banquer pointed out to me in a private exchange, the tester has to be honest and open about his results and data! As is the case with science in general.
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
I don't know where you guys are coming from. But dynamic power is just a consumer euphemism for a technical term called peak value that mathematically is twice the RMS value. If there is an RMS value there is a peak value. And strictly speaking technically, there is really is no such thing as RMS power. What manufacturers put in their specs, at least those who are truthful in their specs, is CONTINUOUS AVERAGE Or MINIMUM power into so and so load. There are volts in RMS and current in RMS but never Power in RMS. But I can understand that RMS power has come to be an idiomatically accepted audiophile-speak for as long as we understand each other that it is continuous average, a value derived from an equation using RMS volts.

Using voltage or current measurements, an excellent amp can have peak values exceeding twice its RMS current or voltage values across a load. But depending on design and power measurements conditions, it can be far less. An amp measured at extreme but unrealistic conditions such as those from DIN into 4 ohms at 1% THD and with just one channel driven can yield numerically fantastic figures that leave little for peak power figures to be meaningful. They are effectivaly rating their amps in peak, not continuous average. Not conservative.

Powerful amps have filter capacitors with fantastic values to take care of peak voltage requirements, say 150volts and a total capacitance starting at 46,000microfarads and some in excess of 100,000 microfarads. These storage capacitors do not charge all the time unless they fall below a certain value and will discharge FAST enough to take care of instantaneous voltage requirements. Some designs use an array of parallel capacitors with smaller capacitances on the observed behaviour that small capcitance storage devices discharge and charge FASTER than large ones. Hence, rather than use double 23,000 mF caps, some would use eight 6,800mf caps instead to achieve a much faster response to transient current peaks.

Like I said PMPO is marketing hype that have no basis in technical terms, but real dynamic power is not. But because it has become an accepted fact that musical signals are dynamic, the ability of the amp to respond to such dynamic signals instantaneously requires some peak power abilities that has come to be called dynamic power or dynamic headroom to indicate in db the gap between continuous and peak.

It is true there are nor standards for measuring peak dynamic power. This had led manufacturers to use whatever measurement conditions and standards they want to arrive at impressive numbers that are sure to attract the uninformed customer. That applies to continuous power rating as well. But just the same, there are brands that do stick to CONSERVATIVE power rating, whether peak or continuous.

Another aspect of dynamic power is the ability of the amp to respond dynamically to impedance fluctuations that can go down to 2 ohms as presented to it by the speaker's own reactive load to different frequencies. A theoreticaly good amplifer doubles its available power as the load impedance is halved. This is indicative of the ability of the amp to respond dynamically to changing impedance across the audible spectra. Again, there is nothing hype about this. This is entirely technical and a very crucial quality of amp in the real world.

A typically complete power specs such as done by musical fidelity for its A308 amplifer goes something like this:

Voltage RMS: 35 Volts 20Hz to 20 KHz
Peak: 99Volts
Power: 150 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms (21.8dBW). 300 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms.
Peak-to-peak: output current 48 Amps


They don't give dynamic headroom or state the peak power in watts but indicate a more measureable value in terms of volts and amps.

In contrast, here's a NAD power specification for its T973 seven channel power amplifier:

7 x 140W Minimum Continuous Power (8 / 4 Ohms); all channels driven simultaneously
2 x 200W Continuous Power (8 / 4 Ohms)
230W, 390W and 450W IHF Power into 8, 4 and 2 ohms, respectively


Note that in both situations, the term RMS is never used. They're some of the few manufactuers who don't need to overstate their products' specs.
 
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D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Amplifier Power

"And strictly speaking technically, there is really is no such thing as RMS power. "
The above defys logic and standard engineering principles relating to power.

I'm still waiting for the consumer rhetoric to stop and still waiting for you to monitor the voltage peaks into your speaker with a scope.
d.b.
 
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jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Dan, If I were to measure the voltage peaks with a scope, what might I expect from the average 100-watt amp? Or say my Denon 2803 rated at 90-watts. I am intrigued.
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Amplifier Power

What you ar looking for here is how high the voltage peaks across the speaker load in actual use. If we know the peak voltage and we know the impedance than we know the peak current and we know the peak watts used.( it's going to be a pretty close approximation) Don't be surprised if your peak voltages do not exceed 30 volts. You should also look for clipping ( flat spots at the peak of the wave form) Try this at different volume levels: anywhere from normal listening levels to your highest listening levels.
As another experiment try putting a 3 amp fast blo fuse in line with the loudspeaker, the 3 amp fast blo will blow when you exceed 6 amps for about 5 milliseconds. After you try all of that please tell us what speakers you have and how large a room size. An added plus is if you have an SPL meter to monitor peak and average sound pressure levels as your doing this. The Radio Shack meter will do just fine for this application. I think all of us are going to be very interested in what you find. In addition give me a call if you can today at 781-592-7862
d.b.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Dan; I was interested that's all, I don't have a scope, but I wish I did. I was just curious to know what I might see. Thanks for the good info though. I could measure peak sound levels and try the fuse thing though. I may do that on my next day off, just to see what happens. I will bet one would have a hard time blowing the fuse without driving the amp to clipping levels; and that kind of shoots the hight current thing all to hell don't it?
 
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Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
"I will bet one would have a hard time blowing the fuse without driving the amp to clipping levels; and that kind of shoots the high current thing all to hell don't it?"
Pretty much.
d.b.
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Dan Banquer said:
"And strictly speaking technically, there is really is no such thing as RMS power. "
The above defys logic and standard engineering principles relating to power.

I'm still waiting for the consumer rhetoric to stop and still waiting for you to monitor the voltage peaks into your speaker with a scope.
d.b.
LOL :rolleyes: Where oh where is the logic defied by my statement that there is nol such thing as RMS power?
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Dan Banquer said:
"I will bet one would have a hard time blowing the fuse without driving the amp to clipping levels; and that kind of shoots the high current thing all to hell don't it?"
Pretty much.
d.b.
I don't have to put a fuse on the speaker path. When I was assembling a stereo power amp 20 years ago, I had fuses on the positive and negative leads to my power supply supplying the stereo amp. From 7 amps per rail, I had to use 3 amps in the interim as I didn't have the necessary 7 amp glass fuses. Needless to say, I never got to hear the loud passages from Stravinsky's Firebird as the fuses blew just before. Twice. Only when I used 7 amps didy I get to hear them at the volumes I like.
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Amplifier Power

There can be a big difference on the value of the fuse between the power supply and the amp vs. how much current actually goes out to the speaker. You are essentially talking about two different things and quite literally comparing apples to oranges. Now go back and try the 3 amp fast blo fuse in series with the speaker.
d.b.
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Perhaps not. But I really don't have to compare. That experience is enough to simply illustrate that the amp will have to draw a lot of current from its power supply when called for by current-demanding signals. The speaker load and its reactive impedances can and do in fact act as current limiters, especially if it never goes anywhere near 2 ohm loads for certain frequencies and would remain relatively close within its nominal load impedances. A difficult load OTH would act differently and can extract really huge currents to tax the amp. But the current between the power supply and the amp is more telling and indicative enough of how far the power reserves can go to supply the needed amperages on loud transients. It is proof enough that musical signals have peak demanding components, especially in complex classical music, that, if restricted, will distinguish a good amp from an exceptional one. Not so much with dynamically compressed pop and disco music where continuous power is all that matters.
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
Amplifier

Quite frankly; you really haven't proved anything, because you are making assumptions without any real data. I'm still waiting for a scope to be put across your speakers and the 3 amp fuse in series with the speaker. In addition your post's appear to indicate that all speakers have the same loading on amplifiers: Nothing could be further from the truth. Whenever you decide to stop pontificating on whatever your agenda is and decide to come up with something real please tell us.
Have a nice day;
Dan Banquer
R.E. designs
 
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A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Nope, I don't need to present any data for you as i am not in the business of producing amplifiers. And I don't have to pontificate on any agenda as the title of this thread is very clear if you can read. My points have been very simple and my experience on this hobby speaks for itself for me. There are people far more adept than either of us who have spoken about the need for sufficient power reserves to feed the needed currents for the dynamic requirements of music signals. If you like to blow your fuses to prove such an accepted attribute of excellent amps, go ahead. I have had enough blown fuses and have heard enough to distinguish between a pedestrian amp and an exceptional one. As a consumer, I am just sharing my thoughts on this thread that i created. If wrong, the burden of proof is not on me, but to the dissenter. Thus far, I haven't heard anything from you that would describe an exceptional amp, nor add to anyone's knowledge about one, nor convince me that I am wrong. Only dubious assertions that totally contradict established and well-founded sensibilikties about what goes into an exceptional amp. And until you or anyone else can, I don't have to respond further on this thread.
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I've never known anyone that was disappointed with an Oddessey amp. Maybe you can't please all the people all the time, but Klaus comes pretty damn close.
 

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