PureAV power conditioners/surge protectors

[NetGeek]

Check this link out!

I have never seen such intensive measures for a double-blind test as this one on power cords, very intresting selection of people doing the testing.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

First of all I have read the article U are referring to, and U would have to be crazy to spend the kind of $$$ that the Nordost Valhalla power cords cost...
2nd I can tell U upgrading from a stock 18Gx3 power cable that came on my Jolida JD801A Tube amp. to a 13Gx3 cord made a very noticable difference in the operating temperature of the amp, and improved the gain and low end. Was it a lot of money? NO it cost me $60.00 Bucks! 2nd I suggest U read the
section on the 'speaker cable faceoff's' and those perhaps may shed some light on "Why" there is a difference between those as well. I did replace a set of Monster 1.4bi-wires with a set of Cobalt 3M ultimate speaker cables again at a cost of $150.00 which is less than75% of most 'esoteric' brands and again there was an improvement with my tube amp. So U see i'm not telling anyone to spend 'Stupid' money on any of these things but I can without reservation tell U that there IS a difference! Now in your case I would suggest
U replace the cheap chinese POS power cord on your Denon AVR-3805 with a simple Monster powerline 200 8ft. cord (less than $50 bucks) Buy at least some 10G or 12G speaker cable which can be had for less than $1.00 a foot so its in anyones price range and add a Belkin PF30 line conditioner which can be had on the net for $118.00 dollars including shipping at www.x10.com a couple 'decent' sets of interconnects again if your still using RS or HD entry level product again a very small 'investment' considering the rest of your gear, and 'borrow' from UR local Denon dealer a DVD2910 and I bet even on those RTI 10's U will hear and see if UR using component video on your TV a rather 'improved' Audio & Video quality for yourself. Just a suggestion.. IMHO..
after all Whats the harm in try'n it for yourself?

Are you 100% sure the power cord to the Denon 3805 is 18awg? It's as thick as a sharpie marker. And your comments on "cheap Chinese" refer to the entire unit, not just the power cord. Why would Denon put in a huge toroidal power supply and skimp on the power cord? And you are also claiming that if I do buy a $60 power cord, my unit will run cooler. Amazing Denon didn't think of that first. Those dumb engineers. I guess they are in kahootz with all these aftermarket companies. If you've ever followed my posts, you'd know I run 12/2 wire to all my speakers, and I also suggest 10/2 over 50ft runs. I pay .20 a foot at the good ol' Home Depot. $1 per foot is insane. I own a Belkin F6C800, but use it for my PC and LCD. Good insurance and some extra power outage time is about all it's worth to me. My RTi10's were bought on a whim due to a floor model clearance. They are by far not the best sounding towers in their price range, but when you pick two of them up for under $350, it makes them hard to beat at that price point. I am not one to drop $15,000 on an A/V system. I am aware some equipment sounds different than others. I have an early 70's Pioneer receiver that has a sweetness I can't find in todays receivers. I know tube amps have a similar sound. Some will spend thousands of dollars trying to recreate that sound. I set a budget, then get the best for my dollar. I shop, and shop hard for bargains. I'm probably not the guy to give advice to someone who has just hit the lottery. I'll still find them a deal. Although I'm in sales, I do see the benefit of bang for your buck. My background is in economics, and I firmly believe in the point of diminishing returns. Your point is higher than mine. That's fine. You can spend 5x the amount on 12/2 speaker wire than I would. Again, fine. I'll recommend the Marantz SR8400 for $462 while you'll recommend the SR8500 for $1600. To me, it's not worth the difference in one model year. To someone else, it might be. Like you said, it's not my wallet - but if someone asks, all I can do is give them my advice. I won't give them yours. I promise.

Here's some info on speaker wire you may enjoy:

www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[MacManNM]

Can you say WAP, BANG, BOOM!!!!!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Any of you guys remember the days when we used to record vinyl onto tape? The old JVC decks with the VU meters? One of my first recordings was from an old Pioneer turn table (not my current one), with an eq, on a JVC deck without any type of Dolby NR. I had boosted a few frequencies, cut a few, and set the levels just a tad in the red. It was one of the best recordings I had ever made and lasted many years. It was a Rush album. I had tried TDK D90's, SA90's, Maxell, BASF metal, and found the TDK SA-X's and MA-X's were best. Absolutely analogue - nothing digital about it. A friends relative had the Nakamichi Dragon deck, and would record stuff for us off his Thorens turntable. Sounded great. I was reading Roger Russels' articles, and ran across this. Pretty interesting.

http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#goodamplifiers

I'll highlight the section I think is pretty relevant to my above post:

This is talking about CD players sounding differently.

The SACD format offers a higher sampling rate and avoids the problem. It is said to be much closer to the original analog sound and analog recordings like tape and vinyl. It is also said that using the MDA1000 offers sound as good as analog. Other formats are being tried such as DVD sound.

My observation is that today, there are mixed impressions about CDs. The technology is there to improve them further but the sound is good enough for the average consumer. It is reminiscent of when pre-recorded reel-to-reel tapes were available. At first, there were tapes at 7-1/2 ips in half track stereo. These were very good but when improved tape technology appeared, the improvement was not passed on. The format was changed to 1/4 track and then to 3-3/4 ips. The advantages of squeezing more on a tape outweighed improvements that could have been gained by having lower noise and better highs on the original 7-1/2 ips 1/2 track tapes.

 

[azsoundman]

If UR going to "Quote Me"..Please be accurate!

Are you 100% sure the power cord to the Denon 3805 is 18awg? It's as thick as a sharpie marker. And your comments on "cheap Chinese" refer to the entire unit, not just the power cord. Why would Denon put in a huge toroidal power supply and skimp on the power cord? And you are also claiming that if I do buy a $60 power cord, my unit will run cooler. Amazing Denon didn't think of that first. Those dumb engineers. I guess they are in kahootz with all these aftermarket companies. If you've ever followed my posts, you'd know I run 12/2 wire to all my speakers, and I also suggest 10/2 over 50ft runs. I pay .20 a foot at the good ol' Home Depot. $1 per foot is insane. I own a Belkin F6C800, but use it for my PC and LCD. Good insurance and some extra power outage time is about all it's worth to me. My RTi10's were bought on a whim due to a floor model clearance. They are by far not the best sounding towers in their price range, but when you pick two of them up for under $350, it makes them hard to beat at that price point. I am not one to drop $15,000 on an A/V system. I am aware some equipment sounds different than others. I have an early 70's Pioneer receiver that has a sweetness I can't find in todays receivers. I know tube amps have a similar sound. Some will spend thousands of dollars trying to recreate that sound. I set a budget, then get the best for my dollar. I shop, and shop hard for bargains. I'm probably not the guy to give advice to someone who has just hit the lottery. I'll still find them a deal. Although I'm in sales, I do see the benefit of bang for your buck. My background is in economics, and I firmly believe in the point of diminishing returns. Your point is higher than mine. That's fine. You can spend 5x the amount on 12/2 speaker wire than I would. Again, fine. I'll recommend the Marantz SR8400 for $462 while you'll recommend the SR8500 for $1600. To me, it's not worth the difference in one model year. To someone else, it might be. Like you said, it's not my wallet - but if someone asks, all I can do is give them my advice. I won't give them yours. I promise.

Here's some info on speaker wire you may enjoy:

www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

IF U actually READ my post I NEVER mention the gage of the Denon power cord and I did mention the Monster powerline 200 is under $50.00 not sure where U got UR price and BTW had lunch about 3 months ago with 5 of the Denon engineers from Japan in Scottsdale along with the National Sales Manager who I have known for 15 years and even though our discussion was a little difficult because only one spoke english fairly well the subject was talked about as well as new things now comming to pass on the AVR-4806 and
the AVR-4803 which will be out later this year, it all boils down to $$$. In fact THEY were the one's that suggested a larger gauge power cord could be an improvement on the future models!! U see working in this business as both a "Factory Rep" and a "Manufactures Rep" as well as a salesperson U do build relationships that are long lasting and very informative. I have worked in this Biz for 32 years and started in Buffalo New-York with a company that was called "Transcendental Audio" with a man named Dan D'Agostino rebuilding
Dynaco and other tube amp's (I still see Dan at least once a year at Krell)
and Cary Christie a founding engineer with Infinity Systems ( now the owner of Artison) I do understand both the Real world as well as the 'VooDoo' side of this business.. I still work in it because of ONE thing its all about the MUSIC!
I doint consider myself a 'tweak' or do I think the term 'Audiophile' is exactly right either, and I understand "Value" and budget just as much as the next guy
because the guy who has time to 'listen' to cables and speaker wires and esoteric power cords (As used in the example U quoted) frankly as far as I'm concearned Has NO life and needs to get one! Id rather go listen to humanbeigns preforming live music anyday to even listening to my system.
Just want U to understand where I'm comming from. When I make a suggestion
it is just that, but it is based on experiance! SO $1500 or $15,000.00 its ALL good but not one size fits all.. UR system is fine for U, but understand it may not be what the next guy is REALLY asking for. I suspect we will agree to Disagree on quite a few things.. its ALL good. One additional point..
My statement was :{I would suggest U replace the cheap chinese POS power cord on your Denon AVR-3805 with a simple Monster powerline 200 8ft.cord}
I made NO refference to the entire unit what so ever.. I would appreciate it if U would at least be accurate.. BTW I do value my relationship with what I think U called {Those dumb engineers} at Denon.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

I'll say this much. We had regular surge protectors on our stuff and a car hit a power transformer setting it on fire. Took out 4000 homes in our area and blew out both our TVs.

We went to the local electronics store, American TV (equivalent to Best Buy or Circuit City) and got a new TV and the guy talked us into one of those fancy-schancy Monster line conditioner/surge protector thingies. (This was before I found this site.)

Anyway, one thing I've noticed is that our TV used to get all sorts of ghost images on certain local channels, the picture would shake and shimmy when things like the sump pump, refrigerator clicked on, or the neighbor ran her vacuum cleaner.

None of that happens now. Coincidence or is the line conditioner actually doing it's job?

 

[gene]

I have never seen such intensive measures for a double-blind test as this one on power cords, very intresting selection of people doing the testing.

Thats cool, all that effort to prove exotic cords don't improve audio performance which can be deduced by simple logic and junior engineering principles. I bet those guys in the back seats could hear all the nuances of the music when the Nordost power cord was attached

 

[awesomebase]

Off Topic

Just want to give people a heads-up that this discussion was originally started on the topic of PureAV line conditioners and whether they were worth getting.
I also think that, without naming names, people should be aware of "business" decisions as opposed to engineering capability when they make suggestions one way or another. Of course companies will use cheap materials in some areas of their products regardless of their capabilities not because they can not use better parts, but because there was a business decision to keep costs in line so that their products can be offered at prices that attract their target markets.
As I've posted here before though, I do find that my experience with a line conditioner has been a positive one. Not only can I see the voltage go up and down with items coming online/offline, but, I can especially "see" the difference on my HDTV with and without it. Not everyone will have all the benefits that are offered by line conditioners, but, if you are currently unsatisfied with your picture or audio, it doesn't hurt to try one out to see if things improve. It also provides a good protection for your investment.

 

[Tempest]

Pure AV worked for me

I knew nothing about these things until I went to my audio sales guy complaining about hearing a constant background noise at higher volumes. When a really quiet moment came in the music/movie, I would hear this crud and thought the amp or some other component was messed up. He suggested a line conditioner and I must admit I was pretty skeptical of the whole concept.

I got a Belkin Pure AV PF30 and it works very well! It is a very well made/solid unit with a really nice layout on the back.

I wouldn't say everyone needs one of these things, but it can solve problems in 'bad electric' areas like mine .

I don't know where you live, but I got mine at Brandsmart for about $70 less than BestBuy.

 

[mtrycrafts]

U are of coarse intitled to your opinion.. Perhaps The Absolute Sound or the Sensible Sound would be more to your liking.. or at least Sound & Vision or
Home Theater magazine.. we all can learn a little something from any of these.. As they say... Take what U Need and Leave the Rest..

Well, The Absolute Sound falls in line with Stereopile. Home theater is a bit better. I enjoyed The Audio Critic, a no bs magazine, no on line subscriptions.

The problem with 'take what you need and leave the rest' is that some will take the bs, hype, myth, voodoo as facts and will not know the difference. No wonder there is so much waste and garbage in the market place, all of it, not just audio
Do a google search on Penta Water and check a number of the links. Yet another snake oil ripoff and people fall all over themselves to buy it, even for their babies.

 

[sjdgpt]

the guy talked us into one of those fancy-schancy Monster line conditioner/surge protector thingies

Anyway, one thing I've noticed is that our TV used to get all sorts of ghost images on certain local channels, the picture would shake and shimmy when things like the sump pump, refrigerator clicked on, or the neighbor ran her vacuum cleaner.

None of that happens now. Coincidence or is the line conditioner actually doing it's job?

Line Conditioner doing its job.


By the way, the Monster surge protectors are quite excellant. Yes, they are over priced compared to the entry level products on the market. And, yes the entry level products are more than sufficient for most people. But the build quality, features, noise and surge suppression offered by the Monster units actually makes this one group of Monster products that can be recommended, especially if you can pick it up on sale.

 

[Spiffyfast]

wow, heated discussion but did anyone answere the original question?

 

[hopjohn]

Double post

 

[hopjohn]

The only reasons one might need a line conditioner are:

1.You live next to an airport or a place that causes problems that you can see a higher freq interference on your AC line voltage.

2. Low line voltage.

3. Unstable or constantly changing line voltage.

I agree, but with one addition. Simple convenience. Sometimes it's just nice to have a rack unit with all the connections right there where you need them. It certainly makes for easier/cleaner wire management.

 

[MatrixDweller]

Just bought a PureAV PF31

I just bought a Belkin PureAV PF31 power conditioner. I was skeptical at first when people said that they could see and hear a difference. I can tell you that it's true however as seeing is beleiving.

I notice that the bass coming from my Cerwin Vega powered subwoofer was louder and cleaner. I had to turn the volume on it down slightly because it was over powering. It wasn't before plugging it into the PF31.

The 5.1 tracks on my favourite movies seem to be much crisper now too. The bottom and top ends of the frequency spectrum seem to be coming trough better.

I haven't really noticed a difference on my Samsung 30" Slimfit HDTV picture wise but before I plugged it into the PF31 the light on the same circuit would dim when it powered on (also did so when the receiver powered on too). It doesn't do that now.

Overall I would say that I am satisfied with the PF31. I haven't compared it against other (I'm not made of $$$) but it does knock the sock off of the $30 power bar it replaced.

Another note about speaker wires. There is a huge difference between the cheap stuff and the higher end stuff. I could actually hear a difference switching from cheap 16 gauge to THX certified 14 gauge. There was no RFI before or anything like that but with the new setup it sounded cleaner and crisper.

I think it comes down to how much better does it really get with the really expensive stuff. I liken it to the hard core gamers with their high end computers that pump out 300FPS in the latest 3D games. 300FPS kick butt but you really only need a fifth of that to have a more than perfectly playable game. Anything more than that would not be noticable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I can tell you that it's true however as seeing is beleiving.

And, believing is seeing.


I notice that the bass coming from my Cerwin Vega powered subwoofer was louder and cleaner.

No reason why it would be louder, none. Did you do careful measurements before and after? Turning the volume down because of perception is not realistic evidence.

The 5.1 tracks on my favourite movies seem to be much crisper now too. The bottom and top ends of the frequency spectrum seem to be coming trough better.

No reason for this either.

Overall I would say that I am satisfied with the PF31.

Great news


Another note about speaker wires. There is a huge difference between the cheap stuff and the higher end stuff. I could actually hear a difference switching from cheap 16 gauge to THX certified 14 gauge. There was no RFI before or anything like that but with the new setup it sounded cleaner and crisper.

Only a perception that is most likely unreliable. Those two wires are most comparable. No evidence from bias controlled testing to support your claim here.

 

[MatrixDweller]

OK I'm not a Professional Sound Engineer...but so what

I didn't take a sound meter and do measurements before and after. You are not correct about the perception thing as I did have to turn the volume down on my sub because it made my setup sound very heavy on the bottom end.

All I can say is that the power conditioner must affect the system so that it can process and pass low frequency sound better. Many others have said the same thing and like I said I was skeptical at first. You could attribute it to the fact that there would be no distortion caused by the internal voltage of the amplifier fluctuating after step-down conversion. The amps in my receiver are not high end (Kenwood VR307) so dirty power probably effects the receiver more than it would on a $5000 receiver.

As for the wires, going from 16 gauge to 14 gauge might be the only factor effecting the transmission of the analog frequency. The fact that the wires are oxygen free (higher quality copper) probably has little effect on my perception of the sound. I'm sure if I hooked a line meter and/or ocilliscope to different wires I might see a difference but it may be so minor that my ears couldn't tell.

To wrap things up...The system does sound clearer in my perception and to my wife who is very objective seeing that she wanted to find a reason to slam me for purchasing a "Flippin Expensive Power Bar". All I can say is if you're slamming me from a theotetical standpoint I suggegest you take a a practical approach and actually try it yourself in the real world and then let me know what you think. You can write all you want on how things sould be theoretically but until you can disprove or prove me by real world listening/testing your words are meaningless. Like I said, I was skeptical like you at first but after hearing my system afterward I have joined the other camp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I didn't take a sound meter and do measurements before and after.

Then, you have no real idea of changes with the volume control at the exact same location, zero.

You are not correct about the perception thing as I did have to turn the volume down on my sub because it made my setup sound very heavy on the bottom end.


What we know is that you turned the volume down. Why is what we are trying to establish. Without solid empirical evidence, it was your perception that you thought it was necessary.


All I can say is that the power conditioner must affect the system


Yes, that is what you are saying indeed. But there is no evidence for this, unbiased evidence.

so that it can process and pass low frequency sound better.

Conditioners don't process the audio signal path. The components have filters built in there, part of a well designed component.

Many others have said the same thing

Many others have claimed to have been abducted by aliens, or that psychics have talked to their dead relatives, or that holistic healing cured them, or any number of claims.


and like I said I was skeptical at first.


That is not an immunity card from being biased, or having faulty perceptions.


You could attribute it to the fact that there would be no distortion caused by the internal voltage of the amplifier fluctuating after step-down conversion.

????

The amps in my receiver are not high end (Kenwood VR307) so dirty power probably effects the receiver more than it would on a $5000 receiver.

Maybe, maybe not. This is what needs to be established, better.

As for the wires, going from 16 gauge to 14 gauge might be the only factor effecting the transmission of the analog frequency.

Yep, it has a tiny bit more resistance and signal attenuation, but, hearing has limits and this is below it, well below it.

I'm sure if I hooked a line meter and/or ocilliscope to different wires I might see a difference but it may be so minor that my ears couldn't tell.

Precisely.

To wrap things up...The system does sound clearer in my perception and to my wife who is very objective seeing that she wanted to find a reason to slam me for purchasing a "Flippin Expensive Power Bar".


And, she is not biased?

All I can say is if you're slamming me from a theotetical standpoint

Not a slam. Just pointing out some flaws in your claims. That is not a slam but another way to the problem and reality.

I suggegest you take a a practical approach and actually try it yourself in the real world and then let me know what you think.

Nothing to try. We can examine without trying.

You can write all you want on how things sould be theoretically but until you can disprove or prove me by real world listening/testing your words are meaningless.


But, I thought you made some testable claims? Now I need to disprove you? You have no burden of proof???


Like I said, I was skeptical like you at first but after hearing my system afterward I have joined the other camp.

Being skeptical is not an immunity from being wrong or having perceptions that are unreliable. Being skeptical is finding out, the right way, doing proper evaluations and comparisons.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

To wrap things up...The system does sound clearer in my perception and to my wife who is very objective seeing that she wanted to find a reason to slam me for purchasing a "Flippin Expensive Power Bar".

I cringe every time someone brings up the wife's perception. Every stinking time I visit a high end esoteric audio shop, it's always the sales guy or manager trying to tell me about his clueless wife noticing a difference in cables, conditioners, amps, etc... There must be a sales training class on this move. "If the uninterested wife can hear a difference, there must be a difference." Gezzus - words fail me when I hear this.

If the wife was so clueless, she wouldn't care less about sound differences. You know why? My wife is clueless, and could care less, and would never give me the time of day to sit and compare a versus b.

The quickest way to discredit yourself is to bring the wife's perceptions into the picture.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If the wife was so clueless, she wouldn't care less about sound differences. You know why? My wife is clueless, and could care less, and would never give me the time of day to sit and compare a versus b.

.

Even if you could bribe her she is not immune from bias.
But then, who said an excuse must be foolproof