PSB Imagine T Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review

[3db]

There have been several very large loudspeaker companies that have improved driver and component parts as a result of our reviews dissecting their products and discussing them. Some are appreciative of our feedback, some are NOT

What is PSB's response to your feedback on this?

 

[3db]

I have a few simple questions about (replacing) caps, and I'm sure it's been discussed many times (sorry).

How much would one typically pay to have caps replaced with poly units in a 2.5 way speaker like the T55? $100 per? .
How long should one wait to even bother doing this, a decade?

Has the price of caps gone up that much or are you quoting dealer installation?

This is about speakers, but might as well ask about amps: The caps there should be replaced every, um, 15 years or so? For a unit like the NAD T973, are we looking at something like a couple of hundred bucks for the service?

Just curious is all, thanks.

Onkyo Denon Yamaha Marantz?

 

[jinjuku]

Can you explain the reasoning? Thanks.

Ok, what would be a ballpark figure to replace the inductors in a 2.5 way mid-level speaker? I know it must vary from speaker to speaker. Or a ballpark for both the inductors and caps together? Thanks.

That is hard to say. I have 3 way speaker with $60 in x over parts and I have speakers with $160 in x-over parts.

Caps can be any where from $2 to $16 in most normal x-over networks.

 

[Swerd]

How much would one typically pay to have caps replaced with poly units in a 2.5 way speaker like the T55? $100 per?

I think $100 per speaker is a whole lot of money to pay for replacing caps in an existing crossover. More important, is why would you do such a thing? What evidence do you have that your T55 crossovers are not working? (Hint, reading about the benefits of poly vs. electrolytic caps on internet forums, is not evidence that you need to pay money to change yours. Your question about replacing caps in an existing speaker is quite different than wondering what type of caps to put into a new speaker.)

How long should one wait to even bother doing this, a decade?

I think 10 years in not nearly enough. In my limited experience, the only aged electrolytic crossover caps I've seen that clearly required replacement were more than 30 years old. And they hadn't been in use for years. Prolonged lack of use can contribute to electrolytic cap failure. I'll probably be out of spec long before the caps. YMMV . You will probably have new speakers before that.

This is about speakers, but might as well ask about amps: The caps there should be replaced every, um, 15 years or so? For a unit like the NAD T973, are we looking at something like a couple of hundred bucks for the service?

For amps, the same reasoning applies – what evidence do you have that the existing caps are not working? Replace them if they fail. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'd be more interested in replacing inductors before caps personally.

How do inductor coils fail over time?

 

[jostenmeat]

Has the price of caps gone up that much or are you quoting dealer installation?

Throwing at a random number. I thought the query clearly implied the combined cost. Not one or the other.

Onkyo Denon Yamaha Marantz?

This is about speakers, but might as well ask about amps: The caps there should be replaced every, um, 15 years or so? For a unit like the NAD T973, are we looking at something like a couple of hundred bucks for the service?

Just curious is all, thanks.

That is hard to say. I have 3 way speaker with $60 in x over parts and I have speakers with $160 in x-over parts.

Caps can be any where from $2 to $16 in most normal x-over networks.

Thanks. I knew deep inside my question was dumb, and impossible to answer, but I was curious if there was a ballpark range. It looks that could* be $60-160 not including labor.

More important, is why would you do such a thing?

It was just a curious question. That's it.

What evidence do you have that your T55 crossovers are not working?

I don't, and it wasn't my point.

For amps, the same reasoning applies – what evidence do you have that the existing caps are not working? Replace them if they fail. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I don't have any evidence, I was just curious. I've had my amp for close to 4 years, and since it was refurbed, who knows for what period it was in use previously. I have read that caps can and do fail, and if not replaced before failure, that they can cause greater damage to the unit. I do know that it can and does take a long time, perhaps decades. Just trying to pick brains is all.

Thanks to everybody for their replies.

 

[3db]

Throwing at a random number. I thought the query clearly implied the combined cost. Not one or the other.

No it wasn't clear. I figured once a speaker was out of warranty ( its out of warrnty after 5 years) , a person would undertake this by themselves to save cost. That led to my first question about caps being so expensive. Then I though, no way....caps can't be that expensive so you must have implied getting the dealer to do have them replace the caps.

The 1st worst thing you can do to an electrolytic is wire it reverse polarity (dc only) the 2nd one is over voltage and the third is lack of use.

 

[jostenmeat]

No it wasn't clear.

Obviously it wasn't to you. It's not like that you had to know specifically to offer either of the following (if you actually had the information to begin with), whether only the caps, only the service, or both. Even when it is clear now, you still don't have an answer, unless I am to presume that jinjuku is answering for you (and that's only parts cost). If you don't know, why do you bother asking me? Are we done yet?

I figured once a speaker was out of warranty ( its out of warrnty after 5 years) , a person would undertake this by themselves to save cost. That led to my first question about caps being so expensive. Then I though, no way....caps can't be that expensive so you must have implied getting the dealer to do have them replace the caps.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding that I just want to know how much it costs? If I throw ANY money into speaker in the foreseeable future, it will be towards tools so I can make new ones, including the xovers. (I've already researched both Milwaukee and PC routers, Bosch jigsaws, the cool jawhorses, some worm drive skills, pipe clamps, yada yada.) Just because I want to know how much anything in the world costs doesn't mean all of a sudden I need some lessons in relative value, and not that I couldn't figure it out for myself? I already predicted in advance in would not be worth it, as I got my speakers for not very much money, per. IT WAS JUST A CURIOUS QUESTION.

The 1st worst thing you can do to an electrolytic is wire it reverse polarity (dc only) the 2nd one is over voltage and the third is lack of use.

Thanks. I will be very careful to make sure polarity is always good before testing anything with a future DIY xover.

 

[3db]

Obviously it wasn't to you. It's not like that you had to know specifically to offer either of the following (if you actually had the information to begin with), whether only the caps, only the service, or both. Even when it is clear now, you still don't have an answer, unless I am to presume that jinjuku is answering for you (and that's only parts cost). If you don't know, why do you bother asking me? Are we done yet?



Why are you having such a hard time understanding that I just want to know how much it costs? If I throw ANY money into speaker in the foreseeable future, it will be towards tools so I can make new ones, including the xovers. (I've already researched both Milwaukee and PC routers, Bosch jigsaws, the cool jawhorses, some worm drive skills, pipe clamps, yada yada.) Just because I want to know how much anything in the world costs doesn't mean all of a sudden I need some lessons in relative value, and not that I couldn't figure it out for myself? I already predicted in advance in would not be worth it, as I got my speakers for not very much money, per. IT WAS JUST A CURIOUS QUESTION.



Thanks. I will be very careful to make sure polarity is always good before testing anything with a future DIY xover.

This is my last comment on this topic not to detract or derail this thread. What you think you clearly implied wasn't the case. I appreciate it was just curious question and I gave you my thought processes indicating how your perception and mine differ and how it lead to my questions. You completely ignored this and went on further to throw a few insults my way. Nice personal touch I might add.

 

[jostenmeat]

This is my last comment on this topic not to detract or derail this thread. What you think you clearly implied wasn't the case.

My point might be this: Really, who cares?

At the very least, I don't think it would stop anyone from offering input, even if my implied distinction was clear as mud. Jinjuku did and I appreciated it.

I appreciate it was just curious question and I gave you my thought processes indicating how your perception and mine differ and how it lead to my questions. You completely ignored this and went on further to throw a few insults my way. Nice personal touch I might add.

Ok, I appreciate your effort towards thinking on my behalf, and I apologize for getting frustrated with our dialogue.

As for the few insults, feel free to point them out so that a moderator can strike them from the forums, and duly give me a warning regarding the insulting of another forum member.

 

[Sugarbear]

My point might be this: Really, who cares?

At the very least, I don't think it would stop anyone from offering input, even if my implied distinction was clear as mud. Jinjuku did and I appreciated it.



Ok, I appreciate your effort towards thinking on my behalf, and I apologize for getting frustrated with our dialogue.

As for the few insults, feel free to point them out so that a moderator can strike them from the forums, and duly give me a warning regarding the insulting of another forum member.

Meanwhile, I'm kinda shocked that two of my favorite contributors (both here and on AVS) are going at it like this. Hopefully we can drop it now.

Back to the Imagines, I had a demo of these vs the Image T45's at Saturday Audio during a business trip to Chicago. I'd never listened to a mid-level speaker (I've mostly stuck with the sort of Image price range speakers) and I asked the guy to tell me what to listen for in a more expensive speaker.

He played the T45 - nice.
He played the Imagines - nice, too. No difference I could tell.
He went back to the T45 and the difference was clear. Amazing demo: the first time I've heard the quality difference between tiers of speakers like that. Very good experience.

 

[3db]

He played the T45 - nice.
He played the Imagines - nice, too. No difference I could tell.
He went back to the T45 and the difference was clear. Amazing demo: the first time I've heard the quality difference between tiers of speakers like that. Very good experience.

I'm hoping to get some time to audition the Imagines. I would like to hear how much better they are than my T45s.

 

[jinjuku]

GUYS:

Jos asked a ballpark question and got a ballpark answer. I think that is what he was looking for. Now that he knows a passive x-over is not going to run him a $1000 he can feel free to keep up with his audio journey and this particular path.

 

[Matt34]

I'm hoping to get some time to audition the Imagines. I would like to hear how much better they are than my T45s.

I don't want to hear the Imagines because I have my heart and budget set on the Image T6.

 

[billy p]

I'm hoping to get some time to audition the Imagines. I would like to hear how much better they are than my T45s.

I guess, that indirectly answerd my question.

 

[jostenmeat]

I guess, that indirectly answerd my question.

And I suspect the Image T6s that Matt34 is looking at should be well improved upon from the Image line that both 3db and I have. IOW, the Imagines not only represent a higher line, it's also a newer generation.

What I still want to know is how the Synchrony line fares compared to the much older Platinum line (which I gave a serious audition with). I've seen the Synchrony, but never took the time to listen (was running in and out with replacement parts for my center speaker reclamation project). I will say the Platinums are kind of ugly to be quite honest, but quite impressive to listen to.

 

[billy p]

And I suspect the Image T6s that Matt34 is looking at should be well improved upon from the Image line that both 3db and I have. IOW, the Imagines not only represent a higher line, it's also a newer generation.

What I still want to know is how the Synchrony line fares compared to the much older Platinum line (which I gave a serious audition with). I've seen the Synchrony, but never took the time to listen (was running in and out with replacement parts for my center speaker reclamation project). I will say the Platinums are kind of ugly to be quite honest, but quite impressive to listen to.

I had audtioned the Image t45's prior to buying my Energies and like them. I had asked 3db if he had auditoned the newer line...but he basically answered my question with his post. It sound like the newer Image T's have slightly improved over the former T's and that is a good sign. I'm considering some changes in the new year and after reading that stellar review of the Imagine T's I'm going to audition them after the new year. Maybe alongside with the Studio 60's, my local dealer carries both....

 

[jostenmeat]

I had audtioned the Image t45's prior to buying my Energies and like them. I had asked 3db if he had auditoned the newer line...but he basically answered my question with his post. It sound like the newer Image T's have slightly improved over the former T's and that is a good sign. I'm considering some changes in the new year and after reading that stellar review of the Imagine T's I'm going to audition them after the new year. Maybe alongside the Studio 60's my local dealer carries both....

While the overall performance may only be slightly improved as you say, there are supposed to be a myriad of changes in the design.

 

[Matt34]

While the overall performance may only be slightly improved as you say, there are supposed to be a myriad of changes in the design.

IMO, beside being some of the best looking speakers in the price range, PSB's approach to loudspeaker design is one I really admire. They aren't perfect, but I'm not expecting perfection at $1200.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-image-t6-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[jostenmeat]

IMO, beside being some of the best looking speakers in the price range, PSB's approach to loudspeaker design is one I really admire. They aren't perfect, but I'm not expecting perfection at $1200.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-image-t6-loudspeaker-measurements

I'm still not proficient at reading speaker graphs, but from the little I know, it looks pretty good. I think that whole concept about measurable cabinet resonances not being perceptible is interesting stuff. I suppose being at the lower part of the side panels, away from the sealed mid-chamber might help? Which is another interesting design; I wonder how many speakers anywhere near this price range have a sealed chamber on top of a ported chamber.

I noted in the subjective portion where the listener was increasing the volume to near natural levels, and it reminded me of my speakers, as the Images I think are a good choice for that "cross-over" type speaker for both music and HT. I have a feeling they can outcrank a lot of their price point competition. Won't hold a candle to a JTR or anything like that, but that is my subjective impression.

So the polypropylene drivers are now also clay-ceramic filled rather than metalized, the ports are bigger, there no longer seems to be a dimpling of the tweeter baffle for diffraction but it still maintains the rounded baffle from what I can tell, or at the very least rounded edges. The tweeter is now below the mid driver.

I don't know what exactly the acoustic xover is, but the tweeter/mid xover point has been lowered to 2khz (threshold of the critical speech discrimination band, though TLS might argue for 4khz), and the LR4 and B3 xovers have been flipped.

It also lost a little weight, by 0.5 lbs.

It would be very easy for me to swallow the slightest increase in both width and height, to be able to go from the T65s very* deep 20" to a more normal 15".

What did I miss?

Oh yeah, something I was thinking about. When I see you, or someone like Swerd, who has been following DIY designs, with experience building them, and yet still decides to buy pre-built speakers . . . I second guess myself in my thoughts to go DIY . . .

I wish PSB made kits. Or maybe someone can get Mr. Barton to present some DIY plans.

 

[Matt34]

I'm still not proficient at reading speaker graphs, but from the little I know, it looks pretty good. I think that whole concept about measurable cabinet resonances not being perceptible is interesting stuff. I suppose being at the lower part of the side panels, away from the sealed mid-chamber might help? Which is another interesting design; I wonder how many speakers anywhere near this price range have a sealed chamber on top of a ported chamber.

I noted in the subjective portion where the listener was increasing the volume to near natural levels, and it reminded me of my speakers, as the Images I think are a good choice for that "cross-over" type speaker for both music and HT. I have a feeling they can outcrank a lot of their price point competition. Won't hold a candle to a JTR or anything like that, but that is my subjective impression.

So the polypropylene drivers are now also clay-ceramic filled rather than metalized, the ports are bigger, there no longer seems to be a dimpling of the tweeter baffle for diffraction but it still maintains the rounded baffle from what I can tell, or at the very least rounded edges. The tweeter is now below the mid driver.

I don't know what exactly the acoustic xover is, but the tweeter's HP has been lowered to 2khz (threshold of the critical speech discrimination band, though TLS might argue for 4khz), and the LR4 and B3 xovers have been flipped.

It also lost a little weight, by 0.5 lbs.

It would be very easy for me to swallow the slightest increase in both width and height, to be able to go from the T65s very* deep 20" to a more normal 15".

What did I miss?

Oh yeah, something I was thinking about. When I see you, or someone like Swerd, who has been following DIY designs, with experience building them, and yet still decides to buy pre-built speakers . . . I second guess myself in my thoughts to go DIY . . .

I wish PSB made kits. Or maybe someone can get Mr. Barton to present some DIY plans.

Well first off, Swerd has probably forgotten more than I know about building a speaker. Taking someone else's design and building it doesn't really mean you're knowledgeable, just means you can follow directions.

When comparing cabinet resonance of the T6 to my benchmark in that price range it looks pretty good. I'm not sure if the Revel has a split chambered construction in it however. I tried looking up the study on cabinet resonance and human perception on Sean Olive's blog to refresh myself but it's hard to navigate.
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/

The PSB T6, like you said, seem to be a good compromise for someone that is going to use the speakers both for HT and critical music listening.