Projector Image Problems

[jostenmeat]

Hmm, now I'm starting to wonder if the 4K certified weaves are even available as retractables? I think that would be the ideal solution, but I guess it's one less choice to fret over if they weren't available. I wonder.

 

[mtrycrafts]

One more idea on top of BMX's suggestion before you replace anything.
Try disconnecting all cable TV cables to the system even if it is an interconnect of some kind from the TV to the receiver. Actually, just disconnect everything to the receiver except the HDMI cable from the BD player and see what happens. Maybe even the sub as you are only interested right now about the video interference.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm about 9ft away, I might be able to get another foot or so. Well I might as well try a new screen and moving it back a bit, and zooming in a bit. Hopefully that's it and it's not the projector or unfixable either. Otherwise I'll either have to live with it or sell off the pieces. Given the two options I think I'd just learn to live with it since the latter would be a royal pain.

I better understand the details of your predicament now. Knowing it's a 46" and simply eyeballing it and using a tv size calculator, it seems to me that getting the solid screen to stop at the center speaker also nets the "size of a bigger TV", maybe ballpark 65". If I bought a flat panel, my fav for the money would definitely be that size as a plasma, but I admit that $1200 seems pretty optimistic for sure.

It's not so much DaLites that are a bad choice here, it's microperfs in general, including those from high end boutique Stewart. Right now, I think Seymour is the only good weave that I know of. There are the 4K versions however from both Elite and SE Enlightor 4K (which Seymour either owns and/or runs or distributes).

But- I have a new reservation, that comes to mind when speaking of 4K, because I'm guessing that you are pretty close in distance to the screen/tv. You will probably see plenty of texture with the non 4K certified Seymour (even though it can handle 4K! It's future proofed!) at the distance that you're probably sitting at. Which means solid screen, which means the other compromise of smaller setup once again.

Right now, my instinct is small screen (darn, shoulda got a bigger TV), or in fact try to return screen, sell PJ, and in fact get the bigger TV. Or save up for a 4K AT screen to do it REALLY right (you need to be closer than several ft to notice the texture, however it will have less pop/gain than the XD, but perhaps not a big issue at the moderate size it may end up being).

Sorry to break the above thoughts to you.

 

[fuzz092888]

One more idea on top of BMX's suggestion before you replace anything.
Try disconnecting all cable TV cables to the system even if it is an interconnect of some kind from the TV to the receiver. Actually, just disconnect everything to the receiver except the HDMI cable from the BD player and see what happens. Maybe even the sub as you are only interested right now about the video interference.

I'll have to give it a try tomorrow or sometime this week. It's a little late tonight to go tearing the whole system apart, because unfortunately that's what I'd have to do to get at the back of the receiver.

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm about 9ft away, I might be able to get another foot or so. Well I might as well try a new screen and moving it back a bit, and zooming in a bit. Hopefully that's it and it's not the projector or unfixable either. Otherwise I'll either have to live with it or sell off the pieces. Given the two options I think I'd just learn to live with it since the latter would be a royal pain.

Oh I see, I should have asked what the viewing distance was first, because that is definitely a bit better than I was expecting. If that can be increased at all, you might find a pretty good compromise with C.S. XD, though as you said, it's a lot more money than the Elite.

You know I'm wondering . . . and this is way out of left field, and probably a really bad idea for all I know . . . but I wonder if you can make a DIY fixed screen that you can simply hang from hooks at the ceiling? For storage, slip it behind the entire entertainment center carefully, perhaps you just throw some sort of cheap fabric over it for protection . . . as long as you don't have crazy LFE or something to move the pic a lot, I'm just grasping at straws . . .

BMX, tell me how stoopid of an idea that might be? Because I bet you can make the Seymour fixed screen at this ballpark size for maybe $200ish. If the screen is only for every once in a while usage, this might not be too terribly inconvenient, I dunno.

 

[fuzz092888]

I wouldn't call that terrible at all. I would just need a little direction on how to go about doing such a thing. I do have a bit of LFE that might shake it some, so I'm not really sure how that would go?

Oh I see, I should have asked what the viewing distance was first, because that is definitely a bit better than I was expecting. If that can be increased at all, you might find a pretty good compromise with C.S. XD, though as you said, it's a lot more money than the Elite.

You know I'm wondering . . . and this is way out of left field, and probably a really bad idea for all I know . . . but I wonder if you can make a DIY fixed screen that you can simply hang from hooks at the ceiling? For storage, slip it behind the entire entertainment center carefully, perhaps you just throw some sort of cheap fabric over it for protection . . . as long as you don't have crazy LFE or something to move the pic a lot, I'm just grasping at straws . . .

BMX, tell me how stoopid of an idea that might be? Because I bet you can make the Seymour fixed screen at this ballpark size for maybe $200ish. If the screen is only for every once in a while usage, this might not be too terribly inconvenient, I dunno.

 

[jostenmeat]

I would just need a little direction on how to go about doing such a thing. I do have a bit of LFE that might shake it some, so I'm not really sure how that would go?

You probably know how to do this as much as I do right now. I guess when in doubt, try to use common sense; the fellow who helped me plan out my screen and wall told me that "the easiest way is always the best way". I guess you can use that mantra if you're stuck between choices as you think things through. Go with a lighter wood, and maybe not quite as buff of a frame as you normally would choose, so that the hanging weight is not so bad, and that you don't ask too much of the wood / brackets themselves? You should probably talk to a woodworker actually, maybe if you post in the DIY forum they can help you with a solution. For securing it from vibrating at all, I really don't know if there is anything you can do. I mean, I guess, you can have some sort of horizontal support, secured how I don't know, coming toward to the back of the frame coming from the direction of the entertainment center, but that sounds ugly, weird, and I dunno.

I suppose the brackets chosen would ideally have many screws each, to be safer. You obviously can't go very deep with wood screws, I guess you'll have to find the perfect thickness compromise as far as weight . . . hmm wait a sec, I suppose you could make it double thick with screws and/or glue right at the spots where the brackets will be, and then you can have your longer wood screws without making the entire thing heavier. You see, I'm improvising; you'll have to figure this all out, mull it over, fire the ideas at people who know wood.

You might also consider posting at a screens subforum at a much more active display/projection forum, and or possibly at a theater build forum I guess if only because that usually gets even more activity. Not sure. Next time you're driving nearby (the highest quality specialty lumber store that sells the nicest and straightest wood, with people who actually know what they're talking about), stop in there and start asking about what wood would work best for this: straight, inert, can be hung by brackets no problem for the size you have in mind (think of this beforehand), and of course if there are two candidates that fit all of the above, then go with the lighter weight of wood.

edit: My friend that helped me plan my screen wall said that having it plumb was the most important thing, more than being level (he is degreed in art, and home remodeling is his career, so I trusted him on that). I was thinking if the brackets can be adjustable (without ever touching the securing wood screws somehow), that would possibly help allow for fine tuning the level. But for the plumb thing, I figured gravity would do the trick, but this may be a poor assumption.

 

[fuzz092888]

I spoke with Elite screens today and their tech support told me that another one of their screens would not have the same issue. I asked if he was sure and because the interaction was a live chat I have it in writing so to speak. I also got an RMA for the screen I currently have so I'm shipping it back, and I ordered a new from directly from Elite.

Even so, I'm not totally disregarding a DIY screen that gets hung and removed. I spent some time on the Seymour website and I'm still waiting on a sample from them. I found that they actually have PDF directions on how to build your own screen using maple and some other materials. I also located a (supposedly) high quality lumber distributor near me so I'm all set up should this next screen fail to solve the problem. If it does fail to solve the problem I'll move forward with the DIY screen, post on some other forums, etc.

Thanks for the help and suggestions, I appreciate it. Hopefully tech support knows what they are talking about, fingers crossed.

You probably know how to do this as much as I do right now. I guess when in doubt, try to use common sense; the fellow who helped me plan out my screen and wall told me that "the easiest way is always the best way". I guess you can use that mantra if you're stuck between choices as you think things through. Go with a lighter wood, and maybe not quite as buff of a frame as you normally would choose, so that the hanging weight is not so bad, and that you don't ask too much of the wood / brackets themselves? You should probably talk to a woodworker actually, maybe if you post in the DIY forum they can help you with a solution. For securing it from vibrating at all, I really don't know if there is anything you can do. I mean, I guess, you can have some sort of horizontal support, secured how I don't know, coming toward to the back of the frame coming from the direction of the entertainment center, but that sounds ugly, weird, and I dunno.

I suppose the brackets chosen would ideally have many screws each, to be safer. You obviously can't go very deep with wood screws, I guess you'll have to find the perfect thickness compromise as far as weight . . . hmm wait a sec, I suppose you could make it double thick with screws and/or glue right at the spots where the brackets will be, and then you can have your longer wood screws without making the entire thing heavier. You see, I'm improvising; you'll have to figure this all out, mull it over, fire the ideas at people who know wood.

You might also consider posting at a screens subforum at a much more active display/projection forum, and or possibly at a theater build forum I guess if only because that usually gets even more activity. Not sure. Next time you're driving nearby (the highest quality specialty lumber store that sells the nicest and straightest wood, with people who actually know what they're talking about), stop in there and start asking about what wood would work best for this: straight, inert, can be hung by brackets no problem for the size you have in mind (think of this beforehand), and of course if there are two candidates that fit all of the above, then go with the lighter weight of wood.

edit: My friend that helped me plan my screen wall said that having it plumb was the most important thing, more than being level (he is degreed in art, and home remodeling is his career, so I trusted him on that). I was thinking if the brackets can be adjustable (without ever touching the securing wood screws somehow), that would possibly help allow for fine tuning the level. But for the plumb thing, I figured gravity would do the trick, but this may be a poor assumption.

 

[jostenmeat]

You didn't ask how he knew the new screen will work? If it's because they are now building them with tilted fabric, and are otherwise trying to dump older stock to unsuspecting or non-LCD owners, that's too bad. I believe that the failure to tilt the fabric from the very beginning was pretty much straight up stupid. Factor in just a tad bit more to overall cost (it still will be an extremely competitive price, I really do mean just a tad, single digit %, maybe low single digit), and the rest will be more than accounted for as far as shipping costs, customer service hours, and whatever else. Maybe it's a combination of both tilting, as well as an upgraded weave. I sure would have picked the heck out of his brains, if it was me. Can you tell if your current screen is tilted or not? Anyway, fingers crossed indeed.

Regarding Seymour builds, there are at least several members who are currently or were at one time very active at AH that have built one, and then there are probably several more who were only here rather briefly. There are two sets of instructions, right? Read both of them. IIRC, one used biscuits. Mine uses splines, if I have the terminology correct here. Basically a little dado was routed out at each corner, then just a little straight piece of wood was glued right at the joints. It wasn't even perfectly flush by any means, there was space, it was done free hand and a bit messily, but strong enough nevertheless.

My friend did the dados for the entire outline, because he wanted that I spline the screen in, just like the mesh on a window screen, using the same tool. We tested my sample, to get the right size of spline and dado, but when it came to me trying to install the entire huge swath, I finally gave up, and used a staple gun. I literally had bloody knuckles (and put gloves on just as much out of fear of staining the fabric), it wasn't like I didn't try. GO-NAD thought I/we were kinda nuts for trying the splining to being with, and it only convinced him all the more to stay with the staple method. Anyway, there is also a Seymour thread in the screens forum over at AVS, you could probably browse around a bit there. Maple seems like a good choice perhaps for you. Some people use poplar too I think. Metal (? I think that's what basspig used ? edit: I bet I'm wrong about that.). Mine was Philippine Mahogany. Maybe metal is the best for hanging, I don't know.

Depending on the total costs, time/equipment/money, maybe it's still worth it to check out a Jamestown fixed screen ordered with the Seymour material. You know if you're out a couple hundred dollars more than with full DIY, maybe that could be a nice compromise for you, but the thing to figure out is if it would be easy to modify this screen to be hung up. Maybe an email is in order. Ok, I look back at the other thread where the OP finally investigated my suggestion, and she said she paid $550 shipped for 100". Post #20 below.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/83927-your-female-newbie-back-finalized-selections-please-comment-2.html#post946437

But more than anything, make sure people who know better think this nutty idea is even worth investigating! I haven't seen anyone do it yet, and maybe there is good reason for that.

In either case, I was thinking about the brackets and being plumb. I'd try to have the "hooks" as perfectly centered above the center of gravity if you know what I mean, so that there is minimal chance that the screen will want to tilt away from being plumb.

[strike]Finally, and this is a bit of experience talking here too with my first screen, I will advise right now to have all equipment in hand, namely all the brackets, hooks, etc, before deciding on final screen size. If you try to go for the gold and get the biggest possible that will fit flush above speaker, and all the way to the ceiling, you might find it is too big, simply because that the brackets/hooks/whatevers are just bigger, longer, etc. You might find small pieces with only one hole, but as soon as you start picking things with multiple screw holes for security, well your screen might be hanging lower than you originally planned on. Like I said, a bit of experience talking there.[/strike] (another edit, duh it's AT, ok nevermind lol.)

 

[fuzz092888]

I gave him the projector model, distance, current everything; he asked for quite a bit of information before he said it would. Based on the diagram on the Seymour website the weave is definitely not tilted on my current screen. I totally forgot to ask about tilted weave, but asked quite a few other questions about why this one was causing the moire and whether or not the other screen would cause it. To summarize what he said, the weave of the acousticpro2 was contributing to the moire problem and that the cinetension2 screen would not yield the same problems to do material difference and tighter weave and he assured me that at 9-10 feet from the projector it would not have the same moire effect that I was getting with the current screen. I figure if it doesn't work out, they have a good return policy, plus I have his assurance in writing that I can always fall back on as well should it not work and need to return it.

Yes, one of the ones on the Seymour website that was in PDF form used biscuits. I did see that thread and remember thinking when I read it that it was a good price for that screen. The interesting thing is, if I went DIY, I'd either have to go slight smaller than the retractable screens I'm looking at, or go much bigger. With that solid frame I'd want to have either the speakers completely not covered, or completely covered. Just by eyeball and tape measure with rough estimates, if I tried to go with the same sized screen, hung about the same distance from the ceiling as the the outer black boarder of the retractable screen, the frame would most likely be covering the entire center and the tweeters of the front L/R.

Yikes, this went from a cool mini-project to a full blown..........something, real fast

 

[jostenmeat]

Ah I see . . . Ok, well then I should expect that this should work out then.

Just for the meanwhile and for things to chew on just in case, regarding fixed frame, well I wonder which brands of retractables might have a "black backing" (to reduce light bleed thru and reflection), if any of them. The official BB of Seymour is actually the exact same weave, a second layer, but colored black. The two biggest issues for me in order are, double the attenuation, def at least 4db now, if not more, and then the cost. I draped very cheap utility speaker cloth behind mine, and the wall is also darkened decently. The cloth does have a bit of sheen to it though. I wonder now if I'm better off removing it, but I'm guessing it's probably helping a bit, maybe it's all negligible for my setup. ANYWAY- if fixed, or shoot, even with retractables for that matter, and that there is no BB . . . if you cared* you can control the light reflections coming thru the screen and back again at your eyes. I think maybe the easiest/cheapest compromise could be to throw a cloth over the TV. Not so easy, a PITA and maybe for very limited effect could be throwing a big dark tapestry on hooks on most of the wall, besides covering the TV. Probably not worth the hassle. Again, I do wonder what kind of BB options the brands offer now for the retracatables if at all, never thought about that.

For the size of screen, use this calculator to find the viewing angles.
Viewing Distance Calculator

If for movies, I'm all for supersized, but still be careful, def share your viewing angle estimates. If for TV, the source is just simply less forgiving usually, but still can be pretty big. Superbowl is usually of decent quality, and I've watched that from a big angle before, it wasn't a problem. NBA regular season, not so much, or NCAA Final Four for that matter (I only get OTA).

 

[fuzz092888]

I double checked on the screen I just got and it has a black backing. That's about all the information they give.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ah, I wouldn't go much past that. Many, many things on bluray will be fantastic at that angle, but certain things will already be too big as far as sports on HDTV, I guess namely basketball. I can watch most other sporting events at that size, but am not sure how much hockey I've seen with it. I have definitely played an NHL video game my brother brought over though, haha. Oh, Beatles rock band is impossible at that size. lol

IOW, I wouldn't go with the supersizing route with "covering all of the speakers". There is a chance you might welcome the smaller screen with the other option of fixed frame size. At this point it becomes the equipment+setup within the all important scope of personal preference. With my setup, I prefer a bit bigger than your current setup, but definitely not "way bigger". (Unless it was a 2.35 AR kind of thing, a can of worms that you shouldn't get into with what's going on there.) Regardless, let's hope for the best with Cinetension2!

 

[fuzz092888]

Indeed, especially since I dropped off the old screen at the UPS store today.

On a somewhat related note, is a screen gain of 1.8 high?

 

[jostenmeat]

Um. I have a question. What is Cinetension2 anyway? This is not acoustically transparent? Or is it? If a solid screen, your speaker is not blocked right? I'm not researching this stuff obviously so forgive me dumb questions, but I just did a quick google, and I must be mistaken somewhere . . .

It sort of registered to look when you asked about a 1.8 gain!?! No duh it would not have moiré if it was a solid screen . . .

There is extremely little out there that has a real 1.8 gain, though there are probably many more that claim such a spec. The XD for example is listed as 1.2 IIRC, but in reality it's more like 0.94 for instance. Carada BW is listed as 1.4, but is really like 1.02. The only material that I'm currently aware of that can do a real 1.8 is Dalite High Power, but only when the projector is at a very similar angle to the screen as your eyes. I mean the same angle, not like absolute value. Of course not exactly the same because then either your head blocks the PJ or your PJ blocks your view. This is a retroreflector. With an angular reflective, if a screen is touted to get anywhere near this, then I would be apprehensive of unacceptable hotspotting, and even worse color shifts than what the HP already has.

IOW, I already don't believe 1.8 when I see it with a solid screen, but when you're asking about 1.8 when almost the entire discussion has been about AT, I start to squint, scratch my head, and mutter, "hm".

For future reference the attached PDF shows test results of a bunch of screen materials some years ago done by a (I believe Texan at the time) pro ISF calibrator who travels all over the US doing "tours" of calibrations for many AV enthusiasts. I don't see your Elite materials at first glance.

http://accucalhd.com/documents/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf

 

[fuzz092888]

The cinetension2 describes the fact that the screen is tensioned, not the screen material I think? I have to look again at what exactly the material is. I think the material is powergain, but I could also get the cinegray as well. Yes, I'm switching to a solid screen and I'll adjust the center accordingly. The front L/R isn't a big deal, since raising the screen slightly (~2") should get the screen above them. The center is a bit higher, but I can do something about that.

I also read what he said about the AT materials and he was spot on about the problems I had with the acousticpro material. Apparently Elite didn't fix those problems when they made the acousticpro2 material. The centerstage material would be pretty close. I'd be right in the middle between "slightly visible" and "very good" so that sounds a lot more encouraging than "greater than 17 feet" for the acousticpro material.

I did look a little bit into the 4K material and apparently Elite does offer a 4K material in an electric drop down screen. The problems with that are, the screens are expensive, nearly as much as the Seymour screens. The bigger problem is that they are only available through certified Elite installers. Oh well, so much for that.

In other news, Seymour still hasn't e-mailed me back about that sample. Looks like I'm going to have to call about that.

 

[jostenmeat]

I see, ok we're back on the same page again.

It may not have been this thread, I did mention it very recently at AH, but Seymour was recently out of stock on their XD. They were queuing up the orders so that they will be processed and built as soon as the material comes in. So my guess is that they just don't have any to give right now!

If you look at some of the notes in the PDF, here are what he observed with AcousticPro1080 not (AcousticPro2, so how different or similar are they?) and with XD. Paraphrasing.

AcousticPro1080: 9', weave is frequently visible. Best at 17' or greater. Moiré will be more of an issue because it is very open in design, and objects behind may be visible.

XD: 9', slightly visible. Best at 11' or greater. "At eleven feet this material looked very good."


^That's why when you told me that you were something like 9.5' or whatever, and that you could eek out another ft or something, I said that this could be a good compromise, the XD in particular. If I remember correctly our conversation(s) that is.

 

[fuzz092888]

Ah, that may be it. I guess I know for sure when I call. Well, while not ideal, if this new screen doesn't work out, either because of image quality or I can't get the non-AT screen to work, I'll send it back and just wait until next fall and break down and get the Seymour screen.

In case you were wondering the DIY screen hanging from the ceiling did not go over well with the woman. Apparently that will have to wait for a dedicated room. Now I'm pulling for the new screen to work even more.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ah, that may be it.

You prompted me to go look at the Seymour thread at AVS again. He said 2 weeks and 4 days ago, the following: "We're at about two weeks although I was didn't get an expected update on it this week like I planned. I'm trying to get it available asap. In the meanwhile, we're queuing up orders so they can ship out the same day the material gets finished."

One week ago: It's due to come in today or tomorrow. Assuming it passes final tests (acoustic, colorimeter) - it always has - we'll be able to ship out DIY orders the same day.

Yesterday, the first mention by any customer that he has a shipping confirmation from Fedex.

So it looks like they have stuff in finally, but maybe they're simply slammed from playing catchup with all the people trying to beat kickoff for the Superbowl.

I guess I know for sure when I call. Well, while not ideal, if this new screen doesn't work out, either because of image quality or I can't get the non-AT screen to work, I'll send it back and just wait until next fall and break down and get the Seymour screen.

While skimming the latest posts, I saw him advise to someone sitting from 10' to think about the 4K stuff as the screen size in mind may not need the extra pop, and that at this distance the advantage of EN4K comes into play. Issue for you is that you will probably need to find an authorized retailer, ahem, installer. But, it never hurts to ask is my point I think, and if the % difference in price is not as bad as you think, I still think it could be the best choice, as I mentioned in a past post here.

In case you were wondering the DIY screen hanging from the ceiling did not go over well with the woman. Apparently that will have to wait for a dedicated room. Now I'm pulling for the new screen to work even more.

Maybe it's for the best anyway. I don't know how far out a dedicated room is for you guys, but I've often had fun linking someone's build thread from over five years ago. Granted the equipment is for sure cheaper, lower quality, but it's still neat to see what he did with only $2360 total for a 12'x13' room.

Small Budget, Smaller Room HT Conversion

I may need to take a bit of a break from this forum to help myself toward achieving a couple of important goals I have set out for myself. I will still be lurking here and there for a while, and if I see that you are in great need of help, and that I have the help to offer, I may very well rejoin. I wanted to "see you through" for a good extent of this, and it looks like I've done as much as I could have for the most part, and it looks like you now know much more clearly what the final choices are. (I intended something similar for a thread in the acoustic forum, but the absence of new info has been long enough that I am not so concerned at this point). So take care for now.

 

[fuzz092888]

I really appreciate all the help, I think I've got the gist of what I need to know. At least I'm pointed in the right direction now. Take care, and good luck with the goals