Prince Superbowl XLI

H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
Best halftime presentation in easily a decade. He shredded. A refreshing change from all the band blenders, wannabee "artists", politically driven drivel, and boobie blunders. The guy knows what stage presence means and even with his small stature comes out and delivers BIG!, in the rain, on the biggest stage in the world. Kudos Prince, you rock.
 
K

kenhoeve

Audioholic
hopjohn said:
Best halftime presentation in easily a decade. He shredded. A refreshing change from all the band blenders, wannabee "artists", politically driven drivel, and boobie blunders. The guy knows what stage presence means and even with his small stature comes out and delivers BIG!, in the rain, on the biggest stage in the world. Kudos Prince, you rock.
+1

I would never have guessed. The man is an icon.
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
Cool Show...

Prince established himself as a supreme performance artist during the half-time show. He re-energized the concept of half-time entertainment, and set new standards of what can be done in 17 minutes, in a pouring rain no less. After last year's "Rolling Stones" debacle, where the old icons of rock and roll merely became old, Prince showed that maturity and experience doesn't necessarily translate into "over the hill."
 
J

JKL1960

Audioholic
It wasn't too bad a show. I usually miss the half time show while getting ready to watch some football in the second half.

I hate to say it but he struck me as being a very average guitar player. But he did play some enjoyable licks and sounded good.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Prince for lack of a better word is an instrumental prodigy, at last count I think I read somewhere that he plays 12 or 15 instruments (please don't quote me on this) as for musical genius, well let's just leave that to the Bachs and Beethovens of the world, pop music no mater how entertaining it's just that, pop. BTW his guitar abilities are way over average, but his chosen venue (pop) precludes his virtuosity.:) As for the best halftime show in the last 10 years, that's purely taste driven.:)
 
J

JKL1960

Audioholic
stratman said:
Prince for lack of a better word is an instrumental prodigy, at last count I think I read somewhere that he plays 12 or 15 instruments (please don't quote me on this) as for musical genius, well let's just leave that to the Bachs and Beethovens of the world, pop music no mater how entertaining it's just that, pop. BTW his guitar abilities are way over average, but his chosen venue (pop) precludes his virtuosity.:) As for the best halftime show in the last 10 years, that's purely taste driven.:)
That's a pretty good summary. I was listening to him and thinking that he is really very good. Smooth and effortless and not a single sour note or glitch but the music was mundane and unexciting. I tend to be about the music and thus drop him to average. If he has buckets of talent but doesn't do much with it then I'll have to consider him average.

A good example is my all time favourite guitarist, Frank Zappa. I don't think FZ was the most technically skilled player ever but to my ears creativity trumps skill everyday.

I guess I like to hear notes that would irritate an executive kind of guy. :)
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
I gotta say, I had pretty low expectations but I was very, very impressed by him.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Thank god for the remote control,i couldnt even look at that half man half woman looking thing called prince,what would have been a world class half time show would be for prince & michael jackson to have a slap fight or a wresteling match,now that i'd sit still for:D
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
highfihoney said:
what would have been a world class half time show would be for prince & michael jackson to have a slap fight or a wresteling match,now that i'd sit still for:D
Wasn't that on Celebrity Deathmatch? LOL
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
highfihoney said:
Thank god for the remote control,i couldnt even look at that half man half woman looking thing called prince,what would have been a world class half time show would be for prince & michael jackson to have a slap fight or a wresteling match,now that i'd sit still for:D
Listen I know this might be politically incorrect, but, the bandana thingy, come on guy that looks like the Aunt Jemima headress on the maple flavored syrup. Liddell and Ortiz couldn't put a better fight than Jackson vs Prince. I will not take this from the guy though he's extremely talented for pop. I'd wish he would get into more seious music to showcase his talent.

Oh here's my last one: what is up with the purple penis guitar, I wouldn't be caught dead playing it, much less touching it? With all the money he has.......:rolleyes:
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I'm glad to see someone else liked the show.

The halftime show was widely derided on every other forum I've been on since Sunday. I thought it was the best halftime show I've ever seen.
 
G

geekysteve

Audiophyte
I really enjoyed the show. Excellent mix of new/old/non-Prince music. He makes playing the guitar look incredibly easy - he flings the guitar around as he dances and then picks-up without missing a beat. The show was sooo much better than years past...
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
stratman said:
Prince for lack of a better word is an instrumental prodigy, at last count I think I read somewhere that he plays 12 or 15 instruments (please don't quote me on this) as for musical genius, well let's just leave that to the Bachs and Beethovens of the world, pop music no mater how entertaining it's just that, pop. BTW his guitar abilities are way over average, but his chosen venue (pop) precludes his virtuosity.:) As for the best halftime show in the last 10 years, that's purely taste driven.:)
Let's NOT leave musical genius to the Bachs and Beethovens, please. For one thing, they're dead. For another, to ascribe "genius" to classical music only, presumably because it's a "serious" art form while the others are not, is elitist, limited, and just plain wrong. Grassroots music of humble beginnings, such as gospel, blues, jazz, ragtime, soul, rhythm & blues, rock & roll, bluegrass, country, etc., have all had their musical geniuses, as each of those styles are every bit as capable as classical to accommodate musical nuance, depth and complexity. It's about the musician, not the vehicle.

Btw...EVERYTHING is taste driven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't set standards. The deeper you go, the more you appreciate.
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
JKL1960 said:
That's a pretty good summary. I was listening to him and thinking that he is really very good. Smooth and effortless and not a single sour note or glitch but the music was mundane and unexciting. I tend to be about the music and thus drop him to average. If he has buckets of talent but doesn't do much with it then I'll have to consider him average.

A good example is my all time favourite guitarist, Frank Zappa. I don't think FZ was the most technically skilled player ever but to my ears creativity trumps skill everyday.

I guess I like to hear notes that would irritate an executive kind of guy. :)
Actually, Frank Zappa WAS more technically proficient than most. He was a unique blend of creative genius and virtuoso musician. 95% of the world's best guitarists couldn't play his music.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Starmax said:
Actually, Frank Zappa WAS more technically proficient than most. He was a unique blend of creative genius and virtuoso musician. 95% of the world's best guitarists couldn't play his music.
People tend to equate speed (fast fingers) with being a technically proficient player,prince has fast fingers but his licks are store bought,flash not skill.

I read an interview of steve via once where the interviewer briefly talked with via about his time spent with the zappa band & the complexity of the music written for him by FZ & via's response was that frank had written passages for the guitar that no guitar player on the planet could master,for a player as skilled as steve via to not be able to play anything written for the guitar is a feat in itself.

If anybody cares to see evidence of FZ'S ability to write complex passages all one has to do is look up the sheet music for THE BLACK PAGE,I COME FROM NOWHERE & PINK NAPKINS.

A little bit of FZ trivia,after the song the black page was wrote by frank for terry bozzio the song still didnt have a name,after looking at the sheet music terry asked frank whats up with the black page refering to the complexity of the song so the title ended up being the black page.
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
FZ and the Mothers

Thanks Highfihoney...good stuff!
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Starmax said:
Let's NOT leave musical genius to the Bachs and Beethovens, please. For one thing, they're dead. For another, to ascribe "genius" to classical music only, presumably because it's a "serious" art form while the others are not, is elitist, limited, and just plain wrong. Grassroots music of humble beginnings, such as gospel, blues, jazz, ragtime, soul, rhythm & blues, rock & roll, bluegrass, country, etc., have all had their musical geniuses, as each of those styles are every bit as capable as classical to accommodate musical nuance, depth and complexity. It's about the musician, not the vehicle.

Btw...EVERYTHING is taste driven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't set standards. The deeper you go, the more you appreciate.

The word genius gets thrown around alot, the most difficult music to master is classical, whether its played on the piano or guitar. Someone being dead does not negate his status as genius. Classical music elicits the best performance possible from the musician if you're not up to par with your reading, practice and phrasing it'll show instantly, classical music is exacting and unforgiving, thus why it scares would be practioners. Grassroots music is relevant within the content it represents, simplistic, few chord changes, informal, easier to master and so forth. If it's elitist to say that classical music is the zenith of musical accomplishment and instrumental mastery, I would say it's naive and politically correct to put so-called "grassroots" (jazz, rock, etc)on the same plane as complex a style of music that requires years of hard practice to master. By the way, not all things are taste "driven" for instance math, science, technique, mechanics, practice and so on. Taste is what you personally find appealing, it's not universal. Standards have nothing to do with taste.

I happen to enjoy and play jazz, it's more of a challenge to play than straight-ahead rock, I't doesn't mean I don't like rock, jazz is infinitely harder to play and master, specifically the improvisational aspect.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Starmax said:
Actually, Frank Zappa WAS more technically proficient than most. He was a unique blend of creative genius and virtuoso musician. 95% of the world's best guitarists couldn't play his music.
I would say more than 95% percent of musicians can't play Bach or Beethoven;)

PS I happen to like FZ. And he's dead would you not now classify him as "genius"?;)
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
stratman said:
The word genius gets thrown around alot, the most difficult music to master is classical, whether its played on the piano or guitar. Someone being dead does not negate his status as genius. Classical music elicits the best performance possible from the musician if you're not up to par with your reading, practice and phrasing it'll show instantly, classical music is exacting and unforgiving, thus why it scares would be practioners. Grassroots music is relevant within the content it represents, simplistic, few chord changes, informal, easier to master and so forth. If it's elitist to say that classical music is the zenith of musical accomplishment and instrumental mastery, I would say it's naive and politically correct to put so-called "grassroots" (jazz, rock, etc)on the same plane as complex a style of music that requires years of hard practice to master. By the way, not all things are taste "driven" for instance math, science, technique, mechanics, practice and so on. Taste is what you personally find appealing, it's not universal. Standards have nothing to do with taste.

I happen to enjoy and play jazz, it's more of a challenge to play than straight-ahead rock, I't doesn't mean I don't like rock, jazz is infinitely harder to play and master, specifically the improvisational aspect.
Hi cavey:) Damm fine post & i think its spot on, Im not a huge fan of classical music but i can appreciate its aspects especially the great skill required to play it(properly) let alone write a symphony or a 'piece' of music,franks ability to understand,compose,arrange & play classical music is a big part of what lead me to research his compositions & later lead me to the belief that he should be classified with the great composers as 'genius'.

The serious studies of the works of FZ have really just begun compared to legends like Bach, Beetoven,Vareese ect,below is a link to one of the studies of some of FZ'S compositions if anybody cares to look at it,being able to read & understand music in its written form is huge plus for those who will read it.

http://www.zappa-analysis.com/index.html

The conclusion of this study below.

CONCLUSION

This study has been looking at the musical component of Zappa's output through note examples, trying to find out what it's characteristics are. In it examples have been given that show that:

- Zappa uses all types of scales. He applies the normal major and minor scales, as well as their modal variants and pentatonic scales. He allows all kinds of chromatic passages.
- For his melodies he uses the regular 5th and 7th chords as well as larger unusual ones like 11th chords.
- The tonal structure ranges between easy continuingly repeated progressions and completely atonal music.
- A desire for rhythmic variation is very persistent in his music. Some of his music has complex figures with irregular groupings. Zappa himself described his rhythms as speech influenced.
- For his guitar solo's, contrary to his other compositions, he likes to keep using the notes of one scale, of which the key note is given by the accompaniment.
- He applies thematic structures as well as melodies that are through-composed.

Some preferences in his music have been commented on:

- A lot of his music is based upon the single melodic line. The chords can be derived from the subsequent notes of the melodic progression. Chords in the sense of notes played together don't have an important role.
- He doesn't apply a lot of counterpoint.
- He likes sudden changes.
- He prefers music on an emotionally abstract level, meaning not less emotional than other kinds, but difficult to translate into words.
- The instrumentation is functional for playing the notes of the music.
- Zappa uses different combinations of amplified and acoustical instruments.

Hardly any rules apply to his music and the preferences just mentioned have their exceptions:

- There are sections with an explicit role for chord progressions. They can be using regular chords as well as ignoring traditional harmony.
- Some examples have been given of different types of counterpoint.
- Some of his songs can be clearly emotionally identified.

So the picture we get is a very rich one, making it impossible to say what's typically Zappa. It is true that melodies that are rhythmically and harmonically irregular have the effect of sounding Zappa-esque, but in Zappa's music this can go into all directions without loosing coherence and it doesn't apply to all of his music. He refused to let any stylistic or technical bounderies play a role in his music, thus bringing together the different directions music has been taking in the last decades. Apperently this was a natural proces for him ( Zappa himself talked about a "conceptual continuity"). The early "Run home theme" of 1963 for instance already shows the combining of modern harmony with a jazz styled rhythm. It's not to say he has done everything: he has for instance never applied the classical sonata form with various movements.
Musical analysis in the last resort cannot serve as proof for the quality of music. It can only comment on someone's technical capacities and from this study can be concluded that Zappa's technical abilities are high. Quality also comprehends the creativity and uniqueness by which someone is applying his technical components. That is more a matter of common opinion among music lovers, that takes some time to crystallize. I have the impression that Zappa's doing okay in this process.
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
stratman said:
The word genius gets thrown around alot, the most difficult music to master is classical, whether its played on the piano or guitar. Someone being dead does not negate his status as genius. Classical music elicits the best performance possible from the musician if you're not up to par with your reading, practice and phrasing it'll show instantly, classical music is exacting and unforgiving, thus why it scares would be practioners. Grassroots music is relevant within the content it represents, simplistic, few chord changes, informal, easier to master and so forth. If it's elitist to say that classical music is the zenith of musical accomplishment and instrumental mastery, I would say it's naive and politically correct to put so-called "grassroots" (jazz, rock, etc)on the same plane as complex a style of music that requires years of hard practice to master. By the way, not all things are taste "driven" for instance math, science, technique, mechanics, practice and so on. Taste is what you personally find appealing, it's not universal. Standards have nothing to do with taste.

I happen to enjoy and play jazz, it's more of a challenge to play than straight-ahead rock, I't doesn't mean I don't like rock, jazz is infinitely harder to play and master, specifically the improvisational aspect.
There was/is very little classical music written for electric guitar, bagpipe, synthesizer, percussion, saxophone...the list goes on. Are you saying that no one playing an instrument outside of what is considered "classical" (primarily strings, piano, brass & woodwinds) can be labeled a "genius" no matter how well they've mastered their instrument? I've always considered Jimi Hendrix to be a genius. Zappa too. We may disagree over who does and doesn't rate the label of genius, but to disqualify an artist based on the flavor of their music or the type of instrument they play doesn't wash. When I mentioned that Bach & Beethoven were dead, the point I was trying to make was that it's wrong to limit the envelope of musical evolution by linking musical excellence to one particular, and mostly historical, genre of music, not that they can't be geniuses because they are dead. Yes, Mozart, Brahms, Dvorek, Satie, Copeland et al. WERE geniuses in the style of the prevailing music of their eras. But do you really think that if Mozart was born in the 1960's he'd have written and played anything other than rock and roll? If John Lennon was born in the 1760's, today we'd probably be listening to "St. Lucielle In the Firmament Adorned with Precious Stones" on Deutchegrammophone...at least the harpsichord intro. would sound the same! :)

You are correct that not all things are taste driven, i.e. math, science, etc. My bad. But standards have everything to do with taste in such subjective realms as music, food, wine & art. Standards are set by those whose tastes develop and deepen through years of immersing themselves in a particular subject. To those just beginning their study of something, the tastes of more experienced practitioners would not be understood or agreed with; nevertheless, "standards" in these areas are merely the shared opinions of those who have gone the deepest, whether you agree with their tastes or not. The book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" deals with this idea of what defines "quality" - which is a very slippery concept, but cool to think about.

Have you ever listened to the very rock and roll and also very dead Jerry Garcia improvise on his guitar? Jazz isn't the only medium that allows free form expression.

Btw...Stratman, I appreciate and respect your responses. These are the kind of dialogues I enjoy because they are well-reasoned and intelligent.
 
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