Pre + Pro + Sub..?

[IansDad88(Don)]

Hey guys, it's me. Back again with another guaranteed noob question but in need of answers.

So I've been trying to read up on this, scouring YouTube, and it turns out I either can't find the answer or can't find it on a way I understand.

So, in a nutshell, let's say I want to get something like a streamer, and or DAC and or CD player... or some assortment of that. I want a nice 150-200 wpc 2 channel amp to provide the power to then drive my 2 new speakers. But I'm the kind of guy who feels music should be felt as well as heard, and I appreciate the pop of a sub. So I have a powered sub to add in the mix.

Problem is I can't find any 2 channel powred amps that have a Sub Pre-Out. So how exactly do I wire the sub off of this amp..? I see things like "fixed" and "variable" Speaker posts or A and B, but that seems to be the norm.

BTW the sub has 2 RCA inputs. Marked "Line" and "LFE"

Now having posted here before, I know I may get several replies telling me I am wasting money, or why would I do that, but really is this that odd of a situation, or am I missing some major piece of information..? In my mind it seems an easy enough thing. But that might be the old car audio background again. Cause there is simple. All head units or amps have a sub out and you use it or get a second amp, and mono bridge it. There really no such thing that I recall where you had to get "Y" connectors and run multiple RCA's or whatever it is they're trying to explain that in not understanding in my research reading.

So what gives...?

Thanks. BTW if this had been answered a thousand times, I'm sorry. I'm just confused and curious and I've lost my appetite for scouring articles or forums. And if I posted in the wrong place, feel free to move this so long as I still get my responses

 

[lovinthehd]

Just having a sub pre-out doesn't always mean a lot....it might be a full band signal to the sub, it may be cut off with a low pass filter at some point....it may not have the ability to set a high pass filter with the speakers (together a low pass for the sub and a high pass filter for the speakers is called a crossover). You might rely on the sub alone, but most only have a low pass filter, no high pass for the speakers. Most won't have the ability to adjust for delay at all. All that together might be considered bass management, and many 2ch units have very little in that way as you've discovered. An avr on the other hand generally has quite good bass management but there are some 2ch units that are in between. An avr or one of the better equipeed 2ch units will also take care of your dac needs. Some avrs in 2ch mode are capable of 150 to 200 wpc, altho sometimes you want the option of having pre-outs so you can add an external amp of your choice. Avrs usually have network abilities, too, some 2ch units need help there, too.

That said, how about the Yamaha N-803? https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n803/index.html

 

[HTfreak2004]

I’m with lovinthehd on this.

First bass management is an invaluable feature which even with full range speakers can improve SQ if you get your crossover point correct and speaker placement.

With a decent AVR you have plenty of upgrade possibilities later on if you should venture into more extensive setups from your 2.1 all the way to Atmos.

The streaming feature is convenient for apps and especially for system updates!

Proud may find yourself happier in the short and long run with an AVR. Try to get a model with optional out for external amplification.

From there your covering all the important bases for 2 ch and HT. The worst decision any of us make with components in today’s quick changing technology boils down to the available or lack of features that gives the component the ability to utilize what’s current as well as near future formats and electronics.

Sure it may add front load cost but that is always cheaper than not knowing the back end cost of an obsolete unit.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys, it's me. Back again with another guaranteed noob question but in need of answers.

So I've been trying to read up on this, scouring YouTube, and it turns out I either can't find the answer or can't find it on a way I understand.

So, in a nutshell, let's say I want to get something like a streamer, and or DAC and or CD player... or some assortment of that. I want a nice 150-200 wpc 2 channel amp to provide the power to then drive my 2 new speakers. But I'm the kind of guy who feels music should be felt as well as heard, and I appreciate the pop of a sub. So I have a powered sub to add in the mix.

Problem is I can't find any 2 channel powred amps that have a Sub Pre-Out. So how exactly do I wire the sub off of this amp..? I see things like "fixed" and "variable" Speaker posts or A and B, but that seems to be the norm.

BTW the sub has 2 RCA inputs. Marked "Line" and "LFE"

Now having posted here before, I know I may get several replies telling me I am wasting money, or why would I do that, but really is this that odd of a situation, or am I missing some major piece of information..? In my mind it seems an easy enough thing. But that might be the old car audio background again. Cause there is simple. All head units or amps have a sub out and you use it or get a second amp, and mono bridge it. There really no such thing that I recall where you had to get "Y" connectors and run multiple RCA's or whatever it is they're trying to explain that in not understanding in my research reading.

So what gives...?

Thanks. BTW if this had been answered a thousand times, I'm sorry. I'm just confused and curious and I've lost my appetite for scouring articles or forums. And if I posted in the wrong place, feel free to move this so long as I still get my responses

You have very limited options that meet your requirements.

Marantz do have a new unit that would do what you want except your power requirement. The NR 1200 has bass management. It has pro outs so you can add a 200 watt per channel power amp.

Your only other options are a mutichannel receiver, or a two channel pre amp/DAC followed by an electronic active crossover and then a two channel power amp and sub. This last option is not to be recommended really unless you are expert..

The first two options are the only ones. The first option for you is the best unless you are planning to go mutlichannel.

 

[KEW]

Are you sure you really need that much power?
I ask because your power objective eliminates several good "all in one" solutions like the Outlaw RR 2160, which has a very nice amp section, but not 150 - 200 watts per channel!
Unless your speakers are especially problematic, I would try this receiver, then add an external amp if it proved insufficient!

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying a few things here.

First to my ear you're telling me you can't rely on the low pass filter on the sub. Not sure why, but I'll take your word for it now. Maybe come back to this later.

Also, just a reminder here, I have an AVR. It's current set up and being utilized in my living room in my version of a simple HT arrangement. I didn't want to specifically mention this because I thought the convo would go directly to "just use your AVR dumbass...". LOL which I get but is not my question. (more on this later also if necessary.)

Also, if I extrapolate a bit of common sense (I can still muster a "bit" I think) the setup as I describe it is meant for proper $$$ speakers that have 12-14 or whatever subs built into them, and are essentially meant to be bridged in a 3 amp setting or a 2 and mono..? So no need for any direct sub out connection. And this of course is why you don't have one.

So... You damn tell me everything I got wrong there, you might not remember me but if you do, you'll recall I'm fine with criticism... I'm here to understand not create s ruckus like the dude who popped in the other day as "guest". Gonna just leave that they're cause I didn't see if that situation worked itself out or not. But anyway... Feel free to correct my assumptions of your replies, but also in still left with a little confusion...

Cause of I understand right, you can't have floorstanders with say 6s or 6.5s and add a sub, relying on the sub x-over unless it includes some detailed x-over setup or separate unit..? This means no strean/CD/whatever with floor standing speakers.

Just a refresher... I'm still deciding working on a poor man's "listening room" which is actually a stretch. When I was here before you all left me have it for that Marantz CR-612.

So I have my old Onkyo, TX-8140, and my AVR 6013. I also have my Bookshelves RP-160Ms and a few Klipsch 10s which you all also hated. Well apparently I bragged on thus all so much that I got an early Christmas gift. Apparently I talk in my sleep or something. Anyway I now have a pair of Klipsch R-820Fs. So before, I was considering the Bookshelves in my room, but now I'm gifted these mini monsters. And I like em just fine, but it feels and sounds like the Onkyo is working too hard. So now the room will have these playing, but I definitely don't get the bass from them thru the Onkyo, and I started thinking.. "hell, why not just start saving for a new amp with 200 wpc since these are 150 RMS...

That thinking of course got me shipping for holiday sales (which I've been told is how the 820Fs arrived from a Klipsch 50%off sale) but I soon realized I didn't know what I needed to. I wasn't finding what I needed, and so I'm back here again. Lucky you..! LMAO

Point is, Any time in getting an idea in my head and I'm not sure WTF I'm doing I run it by here.

On, so let'er rip... Give it to me.

 

[KEW]

Cause of I understand right, you can't have floorstanders with say 6s or 6.5s and add a sub, relying on the sub x-over unless it includes some detailed x-over setup or separate unit..?

Here's the deal on this count.
Advantages of using bass management (as provided by many receivers) instead of running speakers full range while relying on the crossover control on the subwoofer:
1) The receiver can exactly match the roll-offs/hand-off from speaker to subwoofer to ensure flat response over the crossover range ...as opposed to the designed roll-off in the subwoofer matching the natural roll-off of the speakers (which is a bit of a crap shoot).
2) The natural roll-off of the speakers might be around 35 Hz and likely the designers of the speakers went to great lengths to extend the bass (using 6.5" drivers) as low as it is. So you are restricted to using the sub's crossover at ~40 Hz while your speakers are being stressed to produce those low frequencies at higher volumes. If using the receiver, you would choose a crossover of at least 60Hz and more likely 80 or 100Hz which are an easier range of frequencies for the subwoofer to handle! Especially in a 2-way, this frees the mid-woof to only have to be a mid!
3) Usually, playing the low frequencies on the speakers produce the highest demands on the amp (impedance and phase) so off-loading them to the subwoofer frees your amp of that load so you have plenty of reserves/headroom!

I think it is fair to say that among most of the guys here, we would simply consider it a mistake to not get a pre or receiver with bass management to take advantage of these benefits!

 

[HTfreak2004]

Here's the deal on this count.
Advantages of using bass management (as provided by many receivers) instead of running speakers full range while relying on the crossover control on the subwoofer:
1) The receiver can exactly match the roll-offs/hand-off from speaker to subwoofer to ensure flat response over the crossover range ...as opposed to the designed roll-off in the subwoofer matching the natural roll-off of the speakers (which is a bit of a crap shoot).
2) The natural roll-off of the speakers might be around 35 Hz and likely the designers of the speakers went to great lengths to extend the bass (using 6.5" drivers) as low as it is. So you are restricted a crossover of ~40 Hz when your speakers are being stressed to produce those low frequencies at higher volumes. If using the receiver, you would choose a crossover of at least 60Hz and more likely 80 or 100Hz which are an easier range of frequencies for the subwoofer to handle!
3) Usually, playing the low frequencies on the speakers produce the highest demands on the amp (impedance and phase) so off-loading them to the subwoofer frees your amp of that load so you have plenty of reserves/headroom!

I think it is fair to say that among most of the guys here, we would simply consider it a mistake to not get a pre or receiver with bass management to take advantage of these benefits!

One part of using a crossover has nothing to do with freeing main amp headroom which should be mentioned here. (It just so happens headroom is freed up when an amp doesn’t need to drive more difficult loads)

Since all speakers in one’s setup have a certain potential for low frequencies it is difficult to achieve optimal placement to take advantage of each speakers low frequency extension.

Subs generally make managing the low frequencies (bass management) easier aside from room modes of course. (That’s where room EQ and treatment comes in unless your room is quite large not to be overly excited 5000 cft or more)

Mixing crossovers simply based on a speakers optimal frequency range can exaggerated bass at frequencies closer to the room modes.

More often than not a group crossover rather than different crossover point for a specific speaker type yields more consistent bass management results.

Afterwards it’s up to the user to treat trouble frequencies in there room for best results.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Here's the deal on this count.
Advantages of using bass management (as provided by many receivers) instead of running speakers full range while relying on the crossover control on the subwoofer:
1) The receiver can exactly match the roll-offs/hand-off from speaker to subwoofer to ensure flat response over the crossover range ...as opposed to the designed roll-off in the subwoofer matching the natural roll-off of the speakers (which is a bit of a crap shoot).
2) The natural roll-off of the speakers might be around 35 Hz and likely the designers of the speakers went to great lengths to extend the bass (using 6.5" drivers) as low as it is. So you are restricted to using the sub's crossover at ~40 Hz while your speakers are being stressed to produce those low frequencies at higher volumes. If using the receiver, you would choose a crossover of at least 60Hz and more likely 80 or 100Hz which are an easier range of frequencies for the subwoofer to handle! Especially in a 2-way, this frees the mid-woof to only have to be a mid!
3) Usually, playing the low frequencies on the speakers produce the highest demands on the amp (impedance and phase) so off-loading them to the subwoofer frees your amp of that load so you have plenty of reserves/headroom!

I think it is fair to say that among most of the guys here, we would simply consider it a mistake to not get a pre or receiver with bass management to take advantage of these benefits!

As always, thanks to everyone for chipping in here.

Maybe, I'm not convinced yet, but maybe I'm getting this because I think I understand most all of what you're saying. In fact, part of my problem is often trying to reconcile what I'm reading trying to educate myself with the sheer preponderance of information available. So I come here, try to lay out my thoughts and get straight. I think what's left are the extreme dynamics of the bass management. I mean I read an article that had talk of computers and graphs and references a couple dozen data points and of course that's just not me.

So before I go further, I DO think I understand most all of your nicely noob-splained response here KEW. Though clearly I don't fully understand or appreciate the role of the crossover on the sub itself. I guess I over assumed that it "intercepted" for lack of a better term, the signal from the amp at the point of the subs crossover. That might sound dumb, but I keep thinking I know more from car stuff, but there's always, always a separate amp with a crossover for car audio. So maybe I confused myself.

Maybe I should define better, what my goals are and why I ask.

So if possible, knowing what has happened so far here let me just fill in a bit more.

*No, I don't need all that power. But again, I maybe read too much. And I also know what over taxing and amp, and or speakers can do to them... Heat, stress, life expectations and so on. So my inclination here is the 70 wpc Onkyo that works just fine on my RP-160Ms, either in my head, or fir real sounds a bit laggy on the considerably larger R-820Fs. And I realize if the data is correct on these speakers they're not hard to drive and fairly well efficient. So, no I don't need 200 wpc but I read things like you "should have 1 to 2 times a speakers RMS in amplification in order to get the best sound without pushing too hard. Especially the lower frequencies..."

*Also, this is all just for me. Learning 1st, then putting into practice next. But having said that, I'm not trying to impress anyone but myself. I do not have audiophile ears, and I don't expect to grow them at my age. But I do like my music to sound the way I like. Even if it's not textbook correct. To me, much of music is as subjective as the styles. And my style sounds best to me a little bass heavy maybe. But not at extreme volume. I just want to feel, as was said before Niel Pert pop me when he means to and Geddy Lee speak through my ribs just a bit. Or if I'm really in a strange mood, I like to hear ABC play Poison Arrow. An old precursor to to today's all electronic noise. But if you know the song you know how clean and tight it is, especially the bass and drum.

So, I don't need a perfectly tuned room. I'll figure where to put the speakers in the room when it's properly set and time to pull the trigger on buying. I'm just first trying to get my parameters straight.

I'm also as you might remember a Marantz fan, so I think if I was going to get a 2 channel and stay brand loyal I'd be quite happy with the stated 140 wpc on the 7025. Frankly if there was a sub out on this amp I'd have likely been Holiday shopping on it.

Next and last, while I'm streaming often, I do still have a ton of CDs and I enjoy playing them. Yeah, yeah, I know that where I got in trouble last time with the CR-612. Heh, that advice is part of what got me back here. Why I started thinking about how cool that 7025 would be attached to something like the ND-8006, and that happy thought got stuck when I could figure out where the damn sub plugged in. LOL

Damn I type too much. Sorry guys.

 

[Mikado463]

a lot of good replies here, you did mention '2ch amp', well if you go that route you'll need a preamp or line stage to drive it (that's what I have) I simply utilize one of the outputs on my pre(ARC LS28) connected to the LFE input on my my sub (Velodyne DD-15) and make my bass freq adj from there.

 

[TLS Guy]

a lot of good replies here, you did mention '2ch amp', well if you go that route you'll need a preamp or line stage to drive it (that's what I have) I simply utilize one of the outputs on my pre(ARC LS28) connected to the LFE input on my my sub (Velodyne DD-15) and make my bass freq adj from there.

That is OK as long as the mains can take all the bass at high power without hitting excursion limits and damage. This guy seems to think he needs lots of power. The next issue is that with low bass playing from sub and mains, you may not get the smoothest response. Although if extreme db is not your aim, then leaving the mains full range, and cutting the sub in at f3 of the mains plus 50% can in practice work quite well. However you can not rely on that working out. Without full bass management of both high a low pass filters you loose a lot of flexibility if the above does not work out.

 

[Mikado463]

That is OK as long as the mains can take all the bass at high power without hitting excursion limits and damage. This guy seems to think he needs lots of power. The next issue is that with low bass playing from sub and mains, you may not get the smoothest response. Although if extreme db is not your aim, then leaving the mains full range, and cutting the sub in at f3 of the mains plus 50% can in practice work quite well. However you can not rely on that working out. Without full bass management of both high a low pass filters you loose a lot of flexibility if the above does not work out.

agreed, thus the DD15's ability and with that being said in my set up it's merely bass augmentation at and below 50hz. My main L/R (Revel Studio II's) combined with Velo's Eq processing makes it quite simple to set up in ones room and listening position.

One of the problems with lesser tower speakers is there ability to do the lower two octaves. This shows up in a lot of HT set ups where it is expected to have one or more subs in the equation to make up for the short coming. With that being said if one is able to properly position their subs they can more than make up for that shortfall.

 

[sterling shoote]

That is OK as long as the mains can take all the bass at high power without hitting excursion limits and damage. This guy seems to think he needs lots of power. The next issue is that with low bass playing from sub and mains, you may not get the smoothest response. Although if extreme db is not your aim, then leaving the mains full range, and cutting the sub in at f3 of the mains plus 50% can in practice work quite well. However you can not rely on that working out. Without full bass management of both high a low pass filters you loose a lot of flexibility if the above does not work out.

I've read the manual for the 2ch. Marantz product you earlier mentioned. I may have missed it but wondering if mains can be set to crossover point and what the crossover point is for sub output?

 

[lovinthehd]

agreed, thus the DD15's ability and with that being said in my set up it's merely bass augmentation at and below 50hz. My main L/R (Revel Studio II's) combined with Velo's Eq processing makes it quite simple to set up in ones room and listening position.

One of the problems with lesser tower speakers is there ability to do the lower two octaves. This shows up in a lot of HT set ups where it is expected to have one or more subs in the equation to make up for the short coming. With that being said if one is able to properly position their subs they can more than make up for that shortfall.

The DD15 has what "ability"?

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

I've read the manual for the 2ch. Marantz product you earlier mentioned. I may have missed it but wondering if mains can be set to crossover point and what the crossover point is for sub output?

Thanks for the response... Unfortunately much of the thread is starting to excite bigger brains with far more detailed knowledge and experience. I honestly don't know what they're saying anymore. LOL...

Thanks for looking at the manual. The mains are R-8205s rated I think 35 to 20k.? Just off the top of my head.

And again, "this guy" doesn't think or seem to think he "needs" anything in particular other than a proper listening of say White Wedding, or the Cars You're not the one... Where the bass is more than my puny amp can deliver sans sub..

That's actually why I'm here asking questions.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the response... Unfortunately much of the thread is starting to excite bigger brains with far more detailed knowledge and experience. I honestly don't know what they're saying anymore. LOL...

Thanks for looking at the manual. The mains are R-8205s rated I think 35 to 20k.? Just off the top of my head.

And again, "this guy" doesn't think or seem to think he "needs" anything in particular other than a proper listening of say White Wedding, or the Cars You're not the one... Where the bass is more than my puny amp can deliver sans sub..

That's actually why I'm here asking questions.

The speakers are roughly in the same range as that music, neither of which is particularly strong in low bass IMO. Unless of course you like to goose the bass a bunch....or double it up between your amp/speakers and sub....

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

The speakers are roughly in the same range as that music, neither of which is particularly strong in low bass IMO. Unless of course you like to goose the bass a bunch....or double it up between your amp/speakers and sub....

Yes, exactly... Which was why I did indeed ask about a better (WPC and Caliber) amp originally.

And yes, exactly again..! As I wrote in my TLDR I do prefer a more solid punchy base I can feel. And truth be told, I almost always inevitably drop every piece of source origination - 2 Treble / +2 Bass. But still it's just not the same as when you add the difference even a half decent 12 makes.

And while I'm ignorant and admit it, I'm not entirely out of it. The bass I'm taking about drops down only a bit more than these mains with there 8s. But they still are 8s.

Which again brought me here for help. As I read, I learn that a stronger amp delivers better especially, and particularly in the low end. And rated at 150 RMS I did indeed ask about an amp of 150-200. In not going to blow the mains. I don't listen that way. But it's entirely certain s eryobe here has better than I do. (especially our friend who noted his 15k preamp!)

But having said all these things, and understanding as much as I can from my input here, I'm still trying to learn. Because I can tell you that you just can't get the "feel" and sound of the songs I mention from those mains attached to my 70 WPC Onkyo stereo. But even adding an active 10" to the setup thru the sub out I can almost "feel" and hear the bass I'm looking for. And right or wrong, math or no math (yuck) I know from the setup I have my RP-160Ms in that I get exactly what I want with a sub in the mix.

Coming full circle now, I'm taken back to the initial replies by Kew and lovin that somehow these amps simple don't go with trying to add a sub to my floorstanding mains.

I think I'm really surprised. I mean if money was mi object, and I wanted to just throw some Hersey or Fortes into a setup with 4 or 5 amps I'd understandably have all the bass and sound is want. But alas... Money and other factors are definitely in play. I'm just bummed that I can't connect the pieces together that I want.

It may be ignorant or just foolhardy, but what I wrote earlier about loving what the ND8006 does, and being perfectly willing to accept the power of the 7025, it's a shame I can't buy them, add in a sub and just be all happy and proud of myself.

So I need a new plan. And if I'm picking up what I think everyone's laying down, I have to buy a Stereo, or a 2 channel AVR, and just deal with it. Cause that's the only option I can afford. Doesn't mean I still can't be sad about it though

*EDIT*. BTW I never really wanted to chase the modern boomy low bass. Unless I'm listening to Glycerine with that deep drop, what I like is a tight jazz like punch in the chest, and some rub tickling zing"

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, exactly... Which was why I did indeed ask about a better (WPC and Caliber) amp originally.

And yes, exactly again..! As I wrote in my TLDR I do prefer a more solid punchy base I can feel. And truth be told, I almost always inevitably drop every piece of source origination - 2 Treble / +2 Bass. But still it's just not the same as when you add the difference even a half decent 12 makes.

And while I'm ignorant and admit it, I'm not entirely out of it. The bass I'm taking about drops down only a bit more than these mains with there 8s. But they still are 8s.

Which again brought me here for help. As I read, I learn that a stronger amp delivers better especially, and particularly in the low end. And rated at 150 RMS I did indeed ask about an amp of 150-200. In not going to blow the mains. I don't listen that way. But it's entirely certain s eryobe here has better than I do. (especially our friend who noted his 15k preamp!)

But having said all these things, and understanding as much as I can from my input here, I'm still trying to learn. Because I can tell you that you just can't get the "feel" and sound of the songs I mention from those mains attached to my 70 WPC Onkyo stereo. But even adding an active 10" to the setup thru the sub out I can almost "feel" and hear the bass I'm looking for. And right or wrong, math or no math (yuck) I know from the setup I have my RP-160Ms in that I get exactly what I want with a sub in the mix.

Coming full circle now, I'm taken back to the initial replies by Kew and lovin that somehow these amps simple don't go with trying to add a sub to my floorstanding mains.

I think I'm really surprised. I mean if money was mi object, and I wanted to just throw some Hersey or Fortes into a setup with 4 or 5 amps I'd understandably have all the bass and sound is want. But alas... Money and other factors are definitely in play. I'm just bummed that I can't connect the pieces together that I want.

It may be ignorant or just foolhardy, but what I wrote earlier about loving what the ND8006 does, and being perfectly willing to accept the power of the 7025, it's a shame I can't buy them, add in a sub and just be all happy and proud of myself.

So I need a new plan. And if I'm picking up what I think everyone's laying down, I have to buy a Stereo, or a 2 channel AVR, and just deal with it. Cause that's the only option I can afford. Doesn't mean I still can't be sad about it though

*EDIT*. BTW I never really wanted to chase the modern boomy low bass. Unless I'm listening to Glycerine with that deep drop, what I like is a tight jazz like punch in the chest, and some rub tickling zing"

Well, your Onkyo is 80wpc in 8 ohm altho that doesn't mean much. Just what power amp were you thinking of? What is an ND8806 or a 7025?

If you do like to increase the bass level you are asking more of the amp than leaving it flat, too. That said, I agree with adding a sub, but I prefer bass management over no bass management....and not many 2ch units have such. I do like the option of a pre-out or main/in/out for an external amp and thought the Yamaha I mentioned had that....but it doesn't now that I look again (nor does your current Onkyo of course). The Marantz 1200 mentioned doesn't seem to have a high pass for speakers, just a low pass for the subs. The RR2160 looks nice in several ways, altho a bit pricey compared to an equivalent avr. I don't really follow 2ch stuff any more, tho.

Just how much do you want to spend total, tho?

 

[Mikado463]

The DD15 has what "ability"?

it's what the 'DD' is all about ..........

Test Report: Velodyne DD-15 Plus Subwoofer

Calling a product “the best X ever” is a foolish mistake for a reviewer to make — but it’s a mistake I’ve made on more than one occasion. There was that projector that looked really great but was completely outclassed by a less-expensive model just one month later. There was that really...

www.soundandvision.com

 

[lovinthehd]

it's what the 'DD' is all about ..........

Test Report: Velodyne DD-15 Plus Subwoofer

Calling a product “the best X ever” is a foolish mistake for a reviewer to make — but it’s a mistake I’ve made on more than one occasion. There was that projector that looked really great but was completely outclassed by a less-expensive model just one month later. There was that really...

www.soundandvision.com

I gotta read all that to understand what you meant? It has some dsp, how about a crossover for the speakers?