Power Ratings in Modern AVR's

[Verdinut]

While I agree with you, I do think if he can manage that $200 more, the RX-A2060 will have a much better chance to keep him happy for a much longer time.

Why would the Yamaha last longer? Yamaha power supplies don't match those of Marantz. Just compare their all channel driven power specs.

 

[Halon451]

You have a defective Marantz but you could save $200 by getting it replaced by another SR6011 and see for yourself.. I am sure that it's the one you bought which is defective. Marantz is usually a very reliable product.

Another advantage of getting another Marantz is that it saves you a lot of time spent on getting acquainted with a new product from another brand.

True, but my thinking is very much along PENG's at this point. I'd honestly rather not even risk it in the event it's just that this particular model of Marantz and my speakers don't get along well - maybe not even a defect, maybe it's just a difference in amp design or something - who knows? I'm looking to buy an AVR that I will keep for a very long time, and if only $200 gets me that much more bang for my buck it makes perfect sense to go that route.

It doesn't take me very long to get acquainted with a new system. I had the Marantz pretty well figured out within the first hour or so tinkering around with it, even all the more modern features such as wifi, bluetooth and separate input selections for zone 2 capabilities that my old receiver never had.

 

[Halon451]

The bigger pain is actually re-programming my Harmony remote.. though it worked fairly well between the Pio and the Marantz, I have long bemoaned Logitech's newer software utility - I much preferred their old one. It's fine as long as the remote works the way you want, but if you need to customize delays, omit inputs, etc., forget about it. It's a confounding mess from top to bottom.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The bigger pain is actually re-programming my Harmony remote.. though it worked fairly well between the Pio and the Marantz, I have long bemoaned Logitech's newer software utility - I much preferred their old one. It's fine as long as the remote works the way you want, but if you need to customize delays, omit inputs, etc., forget about it. It's a confounding mess from top to bottom.

I always found programming my older harmony(890? Can't remember) to be a nice experience. One thing I hate is yamahas interface and lingo though. Play with them at BB if you can.

 

[PENG]

Why would the Yamaha last longer? Yamaha power supplies don't match those of Marantz. Just compare their all channel driven power specs.

It may be just fueled by hearsay but insider like M Code has been telling us Yamaha AVRs are more reliable than D&M. You can't just compared power supplies between AVRs by their ACD bench test results alone. I agree Yamaha's power supply may not be as strong but their lower ACD output test results are most likely due to their more aggressive over current protection scheme.

You may want to read this article:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-all-channels-driven-amplifier-test-controversy

or just read the part I pasted below:

Patrick Hart - Former Product Manager of Yamaha
In the eighties when I was Yamaha's Product Manager the EIA was grappling with the problem of how to measure dynamic power. Dynamic power was the new term for how much power an amp could deliver and sustain for 10 milliseconds with a "down time" in between of 500 milliseconds (at full RMS power). Back then the EIA was trying to banish the old IHF "Peak Power" term which came out of the fifties and sixties and at the same time coin a new one, dynamic power, to show what a real amplifier driving a real load in the real world could really do on musical peaks. Pretty honest, huh?

Now we come back to the "true RMS" reading and it's interpretation, if you want to advertise your $400 receiver as having 100 watts RMS. To be able to say this, many companies will look to that 20 year old mandate for dynamic power and dissect it so that producing 100 watts RMS for 500 milliseconds is okay. And with multi-channel amps and the totally random nature of music or soundtrack power demands spread among so many channels, who is to say they're wrong in rating their receivers in such a way?? It does keep the amplifier's cost down to hit a consumer friendly price point - and "real world" it's still pretty honest.


Remember, these receivers are hardly ever driven so close to their limits for any extended period. Unfortunately, for the few hearing-insensitive consumers that insist on their own continued self-destruction, many manufacturers have to add a limiter.

From the information I have gathered over the years, I believe when comparing flagship models between Yamaha, Denon and Marantz AVRs I would rank them as follow.

1 and 2 channel driven into 8/4 ohm at 0.1% THD 20-20,000 Hz

Yamaha>=Denon>Marantz

5 and 7 channel driven

Denon>Marantz>Yamaha

Crosstalk and SN

Denon>=Yamaha>=Marantz

If it wasn't for Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ HT, it would have been Yamaha for me.

Note: >= means typically slightly better, or it can go either way depending on the model year.

 

[Halon451]

Well I think we have a clue. Just stopped in at Best Buy and talked to the magnolia guy for a bit. He revealed that in his experience the Marantz receivers are not really well built for HT use. They work very well with speakers designed for a high level of fidelity in the upper frequencies (think Martin Logan, etc.), but they are naturally bright receivers and as such may tend to overdrive the highs a bit and on speakers not designed that way the sound will come out a bit crushed sounding. Which is exactly what's happening! Fortunately he was familiar with the SVS line and said whoever steered me towards the Marantz should've sold me the Yamaha in the first place given my setup and intended main use. He's confident the 2060 will get me back to what it was before and probably a bit more.

So I guess our answer between whether or not it was the AVR or the speakers.. turns out it may very well be a bit of both. Everyone gets a beer!

 

[TLS Guy]

That option may still give us an answer bear in mind. If everything sounds great again then we know it was the Marantz, and honestly without having detailed technical manuals, schematics, proper test equipment and a good understanding of the intricate workings of the receiver on a circuit level, and the time to take the whole thing apart, strip it down to its boards and start troubleshooting at the component level, it would be next to impossible to determine a specific root cause beyond "it was the AVR, not the speakers." If I exchange it, fire up the new AVR and still have problems, then it becomes quite clear that my speakers are to blame.

You raise an important issue here. The fact is that modern systems are complex with multiple channels. Actually everybody, yes I do mean everybody, needs to make an investment in test equipment and learn how to use it. Things happen, I can assure you. For me 2 in the last seven days. Without test equipment I could not instantly pin point it. I would be here running a long post like this and be not much the wiser.

The fact is I would know quickly here whether that receiver was the problem or not.

I think your heating issue actually point to the speakers. Now powers are so high, speaker failures are much more common. People think if the speaker makes sound and does not distort, then the driver is OK. Well I can tell shorting VC turns is a common mode of failure. This gradually reduces output lowers DC resistance and impedance, over heats amps and blows them. I can assure this is not rare at all. In fact these days it is actually the commonest mode of speaker failure.

We have this long thread and we don't even know if the DC resistance of the drivers is out of spec. That only takes a multimeter.

I do honestly recommend that ALL members equip themselves with test equipment and become knowledgeable in its use.

I truly believe that approach is now for pretty much for all with AV systems and not just the few.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well I think we have a clue. Just stopped in at Best Buy and talked to the magnolia guy for a bit. He revealed that in his experience the Marantz receivers are not really well built for HT use. They work very well with speakers designed for a high level of fidelity in the upper frequencies (think Martin Logan, etc.), but they are naturally bright receivers and as such may tend to overdrive the highs a bit and on speakers not designed that way the sound will come out a bit crushed sounding. Which is exactly what's happening! Fortunately he was familiar with the SVS line and said whoever steered me towards the Marantz should've sold me the Yamaha in the first place given my setup and intended main use. He's confident the 2060 will get me back to what it was before and probably a bit more.

So I guess our answer between whether or not it was the AVR or the speakers.. turns out it was both. Everyone gets a beer!

Well that is the biggest load of coblers, I have heard in a long time. I have tested many amps. Any differences are very subtle and not going to cause the problems you are talking about.

Mind you I'm one to talk since of all the amps through my hands I only use Quad.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think the BB guy is full of $h!t. But, I will take a fresh squeezed IPA from deschutes! Lol

 

[Halon451]

I think your heating issue actually point to the speakers.

Not just mine then. The unit in the store ran just as hot. I mentioned this in another post pages ago - I actually recoiled from it because it was so hot it surprised me.

We have this long thread and we don't even know if the DC resistance of the drivers is out of spec. That only takes a multimeter.

I have a good multimeter and I'm no stranger to using it. How do I find what the nominal DC resistance of those drivers may be? That would be worth checking. I don't usually see that in the usual list of rated specs for speakers. Since I'm in communication with Ed Mullen of SVS at this point I can certainly ask him.

I do honestly recommend that ALL members equip themselves with test equipment and become knowledgeable in its use.

I really do wish I had the time to dissect one of these things to that level, but the reality for a lot of us I would presume is same as mine. And given that I still have the option of exchanging it, it makes much more practical sense to try that first. I'm a former technician, I've troubleshot many complex electrical and electronic systems many vastly more complex than a typical AVR. But the OEM's here would need to provide detailed technical manuals to the public, and I honestly am not sure if they do or not. These things are very much solid state with a lot of digital components built into them, unlike the old analog days where one could look at a circuit board and kinda figure out what it's supposed to do. Plus I'm fairly rusty at this point it's been some years.. Last I worked on systems we had moved to all digital cards. So troubleshooting became a matter of simply identifying the bad card and swapping that out. I didn't even have to solder anything anymore. I imagine with the amount of digital components inside an AVR, troubleshooting down to maybe the board level would be about the closest anyone could get within reason inside the home environment. You ever replace a 50 pin IC chip? It ain't fun.

 

[Halon451]

Well, BB guy may be full of it, but I'm out of options. What he described exactly mirrored my situation before I even described it to him, sooo.... I don't know. Maybe I'm jumping prematurely at the thought because it's at least fits my scenario perfectly and doesn't necessarily point to a faulty AVR or faulty speakers, just a bad pairing.

 

[M Code]

I think your heating issue actually point to the speakers. Now powers are so high, speaker failures are much more common. People think if the speaker makes sound and does not distort, then the driver is OK. Well I can tell shorting VC turns is a common mode of failure. This gradually reduces output lowers DC resistance and impedance, over heats amps and blows them. I can assure this is not rare at all. In fact these days it is actually the commonest mode of speaker failure.

Todays' AVRs especially the most competitive price points ones are designed/built to deliver higher peak power(voltage) rather than higher current.. This has happened for a couple of reasons:
1. Due to the extreme price pressure the brands are now pushing higher power output specs vs. the competition
2. Popular source audio and video material is now fully digital which have a higher dynamic range
3. AVRs have more channels of amplification so there have been some decrease in power supply robustness

Bottom line..
Higher peak voltage swings of the AVR can be destructive on a marginally designed, less expensive loudspeaker...

Just my $0.02...

 

[Halon451]

He may be right, he may be wrong - but I guess we will know for sure soon when I have the Yamaha in place. I will gladly eat crow if it doesn't fix my issue.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not just mine then. The unit in the store ran just as hot. I mentioned this in another post pages ago - I actually recoiled from it because it was so hot it surprised me.



I have a good multimeter and I'm no stranger to using it. How do I find what the nominal DC resistance of those drivers may be? That would be worth checking. I don't usually see that in the usual list of rated specs for speakers. Since I'm in communication with Ed Mullen of SVS at this point I can certainly ask him.



I really do wish I had the time to dissect one of these things to that level, but the reality for a lot of us I would presume is same as mine. And given that I still have the option of exchanging it, it makes much more practical sense to try that first. I'm a former technician, I've troubleshot many complex electrical and electronic systems many vastly more complex than a typical AVR. But the OEM's here would need to provide detailed technical manuals to the public, and I honestly am not sure if they do or not. These things are very much solid state with a lot of digital components built into them, unlike the old analog days where one could look at a circuit board and kinda figure out what it's supposed to do. Plus I'm fairly rusty at this point it's been some years.. Last I worked on systems we had moved to all digital cards. So troubleshooting became a matter of simply identifying the bad card and swapping that out. I didn't even have to solder anything anymore. I imagine with the amount of digital components inside an AVR, troubleshooting down to maybe the board level would be about the closest anyone could get within reason inside the home environment. You ever replace a 50 pin IC chip? It ain't fun.

All your points make sense. However, you don't need a service manual to see if the unit has an aberrant frequency response or significant distortion.

A receiver causing the problems you site would show up very fast on the bench. It would not be subtle.

As to heat, I suppose then these new Marantz units are biased more heavily to class A than the B side of AB. In a receiver that's a problem. As biasing to class A does have some sonic advantages, but causes increased failures.

That goes to the heart of why I use Quad amplification. The output is heavily biased to class B so they run cool. There is a low powered class A amp that sends an error correction signal to the output stage. The whole spec of the amp is determined by the Class A amp. So you get class A performance with little heat and long life.

Now Peter Walker's patents have long expired, I fail to understand why every amp and receiver does not use that topology. People seem like sheep and do not notice this brilliant work that now goes back almost fifty years. I find this just incredible. It is not cost, as the part count is low as the design is so elegant. There is absolutely no reason that every receiver on the market could not have class A spec and very cool long running operation. Just stunning this oversight.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I hope for whatever the reason, the Yamaha does exactly what you hope. I'm just saying (like most BB employees), he's talking out of his horn. I've never heard that explanation and it doesn't even make sense.

 

[Halon451]

I hope for whatever the reason, the Yamaha does exactly what you hope. I'm just saying (like most BB employees), he's talking out of his horn. I've never heard that explanation and it doesn't even make sense.

Maybe he was? Maybe I don't quite understand how the AVR couldn't possibly be doing exactly what he describes? If it's beefing up higher frequencies to boost fidelity in that range and my speakers aren't quite as agile in that range, would it not result in a bit of an overdriven sound? I know that certain AVR's tend to have their own "tonal signature" to some extent and none that I know of have accomplished the act of pure, uncolored gain on a signal being sent to speakers. Why doesn't it make sense?

 

[Verdinut]

Well I think we have a clue. Just stopped in at Best Buy and talked to the magnolia guy for a bit. He revealed that in his experience the Marantz receivers are not really well built for HT use. They work very well with speakers designed for a high level of fidelity in the upper frequencies (think Martin Logan, etc.), but they are naturally bright receivers and as such may tend to overdrive the highs a bit and on speakers not designed that way the sound will come out a bit crushed sounding. Which is exactly what's happening! Fortunately he was familiar with the SVS line and said whoever steered me towards the Marantz should've sold me the Yamaha in the first place given my setup and intended main use. He's confident the 2060 will get me back to what it was before and probably a bit more.

So I guess our answer between whether or not it was the AVR or the speakers.. turns out it may very well be a bit of both. Everyone gets a beer!

I wouldn't trust what a BestBuy salesman says.

 

[Halon451]

Well. I'll argue that it at least makes as much sense as all five speakers going bad simultaneously lol.

I'll be fair. I walked in there with specific intent to buy that Yamaha, so hearing anything that seemed to affirm that choice probably fell on accepting ears. Guilty on that one. At this point in my frustration he could've told me the Marantz tends to leak wattage from the sides or something equally bizarre and I wouldve said "Mmm okay." Lol Doesn't mean that the Yamaha won't prove to be a better AVR for my setup, but that won't be known until I get it installed and calibrated and all that.

So I'll table this for now. That's in motion, may be awhile as they have to order it in to the store so I'm not even sure when I'll get it it. My system may be down and out for a few days with its heart removed but I will definitely pick it up again with my impressions once it's up and running.

Sincerely, thank you all so much for the support, guidance, info, knowledge. No way I would've known all this in such a short time span without your help. Beers are still on me regardless if it works or not!

 

[Halon451]

I wouldn't trust what a BestBuy salesman says.

I typically don't. That's why I'm talking to you guys more than them.

 

[Verdinut]

Well I think we have a clue. Just stopped in at Best Buy and talked to the magnolia guy for a bit. He revealed that in his experience the Marantz receivers are not really well built for HT use. They work very well with speakers designed for a high level of fidelity in the upper frequencies (think Martin Logan, etc.), but they are naturally bright receivers and as such may tend to overdrive the highs a bit and on speakers not designed that way the sound will come out a bit crushed sounding. Which is exactly what's happening! Fortunately he was familiar with the SVS line and said whoever steered me towards the Marantz should've sold me the Yamaha in the first place given my setup and intended main use. He's confident the 2060 will get me back to what it was before and probably a bit more.

So I guess our answer between whether or not it was the AVR or the speakers.. turns out it may very well be a bit of both. Everyone gets a beer!

The BestBuy smart alec who says that Marantz receivers have an exaggerated bright sound doesn't know what he is talking about!
Marantz receivers and amplifiers are reputed to have a neutral sound.