Power hungry speakers

[annunaki]

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Guest : <font color='#000000'>Reading this tread entirely makes me crave for more. While JDueitt put a strong critique to halt all arms  and nonsense for Zumbo,  Annunaki and all others, he (JDuett) did not succeed. Forum is just like a knowledge data base -- for the ignorant to pickup helpul input from the knowlegables. How accurate the input is up to one's digestion and discretion.

I took (others may not)  Annunaki's input of increased signal for HK than Yammy if both has the same watts ratings in surround mode. Almost a week now I bought an Onkyo 701 6.1  100 x 6. From the specs below, can Anunnaki

a) Let me know what my true watt rating in surround mode.
Ampifier Section:
Continuous average power output (FTC)
All channels:
100 W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20 hz to 20 khz with no more than .08 % THD.
125 W min. RMS at 6 ohms, 2 channels driven from 1 khz with no more the .1 % THD.

Continuous power output (DIN) 130 W at 6 ohms
Maximum power output (EIAJ    160 W at 6 ohms
Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 x 230 W at 3 ohms
                                          2 x 170 W at 4 ohms
                                          2 x 115 W at 8 ohms

b) Then what HK AVR mode will be =or&gt; to this Onkyo 701 so I could switch.

Thanks,
 

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<font color='#000000'>After contacting Onkyo tech support I was able to discover that the TX-SR701 was capable of around 5.3 amperes of power consupmtion. With a constant line voltage of 120 volts that gives us 636 watts of current draw. In surround mode using the generic efficency average for Class a/b amplifiers of 55% we would get 349.8 watts of total power. With all channels driven you should be in the neighborhood of roughly 58 watts per channel. Meeting the two channel specification would be no problem for this receiver. It would also have a good bit of headroom to boot. I will have more info on this receiver tomorrow. I need to find some more specifics on it.

The H/K AVR-230 would be very similar to the TX-SR701. It would probably be touch more powerful all channels driven. However, this difference in spl would not be noticed. The H/K may be a touch more dynamic in surround mode. If you wanted 7 channels the AVR-330 would be a possibility, but it virtually shares the same power supply with the 230. &nbsp;

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[annunaki]

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Guest : <font color='#000000'>&quot;Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output.&quot;

It does actually refer to this in the &quot;LAB NOTES&quot; section at the end of the review.  I have also spoken with yamaha reps, and some of their engineers regarding this matter.

I do agree that if not one is a newbie or not privy to all this &quot;truth&quot;, that they are getting ripped off. I just don't let it bother me because I know joe-six-pack that picked up a sony unit from Best Buy and is pushing some cerwin vegas will never know the difference.  But yes, we should expect more from the &quot;world rekown&quot; companies we all gab about.

best,</font>

<font color='#000000'>Ross, even if the cause for this would be that the limiting circuitry is kicking in, it still says that there is much to be desired in the amplifier's design. I would not want a receiver that cannot drive all of its channels simultaneously (which movies do!) to .1% thd without current limiting circuitry kicking in. If that is the case it will also limit available headroom prematurely, squashing dynamics. Movies are multichannel (more than just two), and they consistantly drive all channels simultaneously. Especially action flicks. I understand that movies and music are dynamic in nature, but it is still no excuse.
Take a movie like Saving Private Ryan for example. In the beginning war scene there is much action going on in ALL channels. At or near reference levels, say 100db-105db the amplifier may be at or near its continuous output power around .1% thd. Now within all of that action let's say there is another explosion that is to be heard over the already ambient 100db reference level. Basically a peak, around 105db or so (remember this is just an example). Because of this limiting circuitry kicking in so early, it would barely distinguish itself above the 100 db ambient level of the soundtrack. &nbsp;

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Some things to consider when checking out a receiver's capabilities:

1. &nbsp;Size of room
2. &nbsp;Efficiency of speakers
3. &nbsp;Proper calibration and setup
4. &nbsp;Impedence rating of speakers
5. &nbsp;Listening levels
6. &nbsp;Source material

Believe it or not, but the 5 channel stress tests that reviewers put receivers through are not &nbsp;very realistic situations. &nbsp;During private ryan it may be loud, but why is your spl meter reading 100dbs? &nbsp;Reference level calibration is usually closer to 85dbs. &nbsp;How large is your room? &nbsp;What db level do you have your system calibrated to? &nbsp;Is it a weighted average, or is it measured from the &quot;sweet spot&quot;? &nbsp;Also, during multichannel material like this, not all your speakers are playing at the same loudness. &nbsp;Maybe in reference to your seating position, but if a person has bookshelf's in the rear, they are not playing at the same level as the mains or center. &nbsp;

Also, with bass management, the majority of the time most of our speakers are not seeing the power hungry bass notes, the sub(s) is. &nbsp;Just because an spl meter reads 100db, it doesn't mean that each and every speaker in the setup is putting out 100db,,,your ears would be bleeding profusely!!! &nbsp; In reality, the avg. power consumption of any given speaker is less than 10 watts during a movie. &nbsp;Occasional peaks happen (that's what the capacitors are for, they only kick in if/when needed), but it is usually specific to only some of the speakers at a particular time. &nbsp;

&quot;let's say there is another explosion that is to be heard over the already ambient 100db reference level&quot;

Ambient 100db material &nbsp;

.

Brochini, Aside from all this, I would still STRONGLY recommend the h/k 7200 over the onkyo unit, if the price isn't too unreasonable for you, considering that it is even less than half price of its original msrp.

best,

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;Maybe in reference to your seating position, but if a person has bookshelf's in the rear, they are not playing at the same level as the mains or center.&quot;

I was trying to say that they will not require the same power as the mains to be played at the same level, when calibrated properly. &nbsp;And, total combined system output may be 100db (if you're crazy enough!), but not each and every individual speaker on its own.

best,</font>

 

[brochini]

<font color='#000000'>Annunaki/Ross,
First and foremost, thanks to all your input.
FYI, I pay Frys here in Ca. for the Onkyo 701 the amount of $579 plus tx w/c regularly priced at $799 and surprisingly it &nbsp;drives only in the vicinity of 58 W per channel in surround mode. Being closely comparable to HK 230 6.1 with 50 W x 6 ($379 at One Call), now I'm sure an HK or Nad will replace this Onkyo.

Back to the drawing board. Please assist in zeroing out the items below for a the best buy, best headrooms and dynamics.
It has to be extremely better than my Carver HR-895 5.1.

HK pricing from an authorize dealer:
1. HK AVR 230 &nbsp;6.1 &nbsp;50 W x 6 &nbsp;@ $379.
2. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;325 &nbsp;7.1 &nbsp;50 W x 7 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;419.
3. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;330 &nbsp;7.1 &nbsp;55 W x 7 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;499.
4. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;430 &nbsp;7.1 &nbsp;65 W x 7 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;659.
5. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;630 &nbsp;7.1 &nbsp;75 W x 7 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;739.
7. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;7200 (exception, too tall for my insert)
8. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;7300 (a would be 9.1, but is it worthy to wait the
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;fact I still have my Carver.)

NAD pricing from mom and pop authorize dealer:
1. NAD T753 &nbsp; &nbsp;6.1 &nbsp; &nbsp;70 W x 6 &nbsp;@ $ 999.
2. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; T763 &nbsp; &nbsp; 6.1 &nbsp;100 W x 6 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;1399.
3. &nbsp; &quot; &nbsp; T773 &nbsp; &nbsp; 7.1 &nbsp;110 W x 7 &nbsp;@ &nbsp;1799.

Thanks,</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>annunaki, I have to come back &amp; thank you for the knowledge. I know we did not agree on some things, but for the most part you were right. Your statements, &quot;all channels driven&quot; &amp; &quot;simultaneous&quot; are VERY correct. After receiving my new amp that was rated the way you described, I can tell a huge difference. The more I crank the volume, the more dynamic the music gets. With the receiver power, it seemed to loose it's detail as the volume increased. So, if sound quality &amp; true power ratings is what you are after, H/K, Rotel, and NAD seem to be in a class by theirself. That is for A/V receivers. When you get into seperates, H/K is left behind!

If I had it to do over, I would buy seperates. This amp is HUGE! I am pleased with my set-up. The Yamaha receiver makes a great pre-amp!

Thanks again for the insight!

brochini, Do what I did. Add an amp &amp; keep your receiver. Talk about bang-for-the-buck. Use your onkyo as a pre-amp as I did with my Yamaha. This way ALL of your funds will be spent on amp power!

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>brochini,
Its a shame that the 7200 won't fit

... &nbsp;It is by far the best value out there currently. &nbsp;I'm sure the 7300 is great, but it is back up to the original msrp. &nbsp;If you're gonna throw NAD into the mix, then might I suggest Rotel also. &nbsp;The 1067 should be around $1500-$2000. &nbsp;Rotel has an outstanding history of customer care/service, and offers routine (free) software upgrades to their products. &nbsp;Rotels are built like tanks! &nbsp;I just know that annuaki will love the 990 watt &quot;power consumption&quot; rating on this beast!!!

Depending on your speakers, you may not need the type of power that Zumbo had to get. &nbsp;In order to fully exploit his power hungry floorstanders, he had to get seperate amplification. &nbsp;His 1400 can't hold a candle to that of his new adcom! &nbsp;I can only imagine the improvement. &nbsp;What type of speakers do you have, or plan on getting?

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rsx1067.htm

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[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>You can buy and check prices on Rotel here:</font>

 

[annunaki]

<font color='#000000'>Ross,
In my example you could input 85 db where I input 100db it would not matter. My point was, that if a receiver's limiting circuitry kicks in at such low distortion levels, (while trying to produce rated power) it is not the most well designed amplifier. A lot of the other things you listed do have an impact on how a system will sound, what volume levels it can reach, ect. Referance level calibration is 75 db by the way

. I think you focused a little too much on the wrong part of my post. I know that bass is very demanding. In a well set up system, with high quality speakers, they are playing well into the bass range. My system's mains for instance, play down to 40 hz. The rest of my system (center and L,R surrounds) plays down to 60 hz. These frequencies can still be VERY demanding on a receiver. Especially at/or near reference levels. What my point was was that of above. If a receiver's limiting circuitry is kicking in at or near reference level wattages, (which will depend on speakers) it will not be very dynamic. Also food for thought, if a system is playing at 100db: If your system consists of all the same drivers in each speaker (say two 6 1/2&quot; drivers and 1 tweeter per speaker), and remembering that each increase in surface area equates to a 3db increase, and each doubling of power usually equates to a real world 2.5 db increase, each speaker would need to produce around around 78db of output. That must be why we calibrate to 75 db ?! A typical system with each speaker calibrated to 75 db is usually capable of reference levels at or near 100db.

Zumbo, glad to hear that you are happy with your new setup. I also agree that H/K does not really offer too much in the separates arena.

Brochini,
The AVR-325 is very similar to the AVR-430. The real advantages of the 430 would be a bit better crossover, an HD radio upgadeable slot, and a nicer remote. Does your Onkyo offer 5-8 channel outputs? If it does use that carver on your main 5 channels.</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Ross, Seems to me inefficient speakers are designed that way for a reason. The reason is so you can put some good clean hefty power on them without smoking the voice coils. These MB Quarts sound soooooo good. I am amazed.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Annuaki,
What scares me even more, is that passive x-overs can eat up to around half or even more of the incoming juice (just to activate and govern) before the drivers even see an ounce of current...

Zumbo,
&quot;Seems to me inefficient speakers are designed that way for a reason. The reason is so you can put some good clean hefty power on them without smoking the voice coils.&quot;

Not necessarily. &nbsp;The efficiency and impedence are not directly correlated to the quality of the speaker. &nbsp;All that good stuff is usually just a result of the type of &quot;sound&quot; and capabilities/characteristics the speaker is meant to have, and then they expect you to go and shell out big bucks to power them. &nbsp;Ba$tards!!! &nbsp;You could reach reference levels and audio nirvana with some high-end, inefficient speakers, its just an expensive undertaking.

How's that new adcom working out for ya?

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[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Man, this thing is a monster. It has these distortion lights that flash when you are at peak output. If you get into high distortion levels, they remain on. Of coarse, I have not been stupid enough to check that out.

&nbsp;This is, by far, the best home system I have ever heard. I can't say enough about the quality of the MB Quarts. I wish I could have all you guys over to hear this thing. Words can't describe the difference REAL power makes! &nbsp;

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>dang!!! &nbsp;This post is really long!!!

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[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>It has been one of the most fun &amp; helpful to me.

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[annunaki]

<font color='#000000'>Ross,
I try not to think of that aspect. Too bad, no one makes a reasonable pair of speakers with a small ACTIVE inboard and/or outboard crossover. Even if it was not adjustable, the benefits would be excellent. Hardly any wasted power.

Yes, I agree. This is a long thread. Glad to here you got something out of it Zumbo.

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[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks. You put up one #e!! of a fight!

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;fight&quot;

Heck no, just havin a little fun!

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[zumbo]

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[annunaki]

<font color='#000000'>Brochini,
The amperage spec I used to derive the power for your receiver was with all channels driven at 8 ohms. The folks at Onkyo are decent to speak with.

Zumbo,
it wasn't a fight, but a rather nice discussion. &nbsp;

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[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>Absolutely! I enjoyed it, and the information is very much appreciated!

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