Power cables...

[highfihoney]

No. One can consider doing so either as future-proofing or a complete waste of money.

I think your pushing a bit too hard on the waste of money deal,really i do.

Lets look at the reality of this,how many home owners have a dedicated 15 amp line that their system is hooked into,more likely than not that line is shared by other outlets & other rooms,we all know that if there is an unused outlet anywhere most people(especially our wives) will find something to plug into it,so where does that leave the system owner,it leaves them with an overtaxed supply line that repeatedly trips the breaker.

What if this guy's home was built in the 40's? or has aluminum wiring which is a major fire hazard or has aluminum to copper twist connections? All are a fire waiting to happen.

There is nothing wrong with assuring your system has a dedicated supply line, aside from air conditioners they are the the highest wattage devices in the home & the 2400 watt draw that sparked this discussion is equal to 2 hair dryers set on max from the same outlet,not a good idea.

Upgrading your home's wiring is far from a waste of cash,to me its the low risk of occurance vs the high cost of occurance scenario.

 

[2*pi*f*t]

I think your pushing a bit too hard on the waste of money deal,really i do.

Sorry, I won't speak metaphorically then. No glass half-full, half-empty allowed here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sorry, I won't speak metaphorically then. No glass half-full, half-empty allowed here.

Actually, we talk about wasting money on Monster cable all the time.

 

[2*pi*f*t]

No happiness in Mudville....

I actually had a question about your 20 amp line. 12 ga wire, right? Would using 10 ga with a 20 amp breaker and outlet do anything bad?

I think your pushing a bit too hard on the waste of money deal,really i do.

Lets look at the reality of this,how many home owners have a dedicated 15 amp line that their system is hooked into....

I have had time to cogitate some more on this. And some other issues that are not readily apparent to the average use of this board are in play.

Factory Mutual through the NEC (in the USA, CSA in Canada) is forcing standardization on home/dwelling construction as maybe seen with 15A 120VAC circuit becoming the standard circuit size in most new construction (last 30 years or so.) Standard 3-blade outlets one sees nowdays are rated for 15A. It is against code to wire/use these (15A) receptacles on a 20A circuit. On 20A ckts, one must use receptacles rated for 20A (the ones with the rotated “T” for the “line” blade shown below.)

Devices with a 20A rating will have a plug that mates with these and will not fit a 15A receptacle by design! See below.

So what does this mean? If your device comes with a 15A plug then it is was designed, tested and rated for 15A service. If it come with a 20A plug likewise is the case. You cannot plug a 20A rated device into a 15A receptacle by design. Why does this matter? Common small applicances with low current needs may use wire smaller than #14AWG so the NEC want to prevent plugging these into a 20A source since these can become a fire hazard without the ckt bkr tripping.

Now, let's revisit the #10 AWG on a 20A ckt bkr, Alex mused about. Suppose one wanted to install a 30A bkr to increase the available power sometime in the future. Then by code, one will have to change ALL the receptacles to 30A ones as pictured here assuming the whole ckt is indeed wired with #10AWG.

So, what if you want to run 30A (or more) to your system. The code is forcing you to do something this:

How this helps explain the problems with adding larger circuits.

There is nothing wrong with assuring your system has a dedicated supply line, aside from air conditioners they are the the highest wattage devices in the home & the 2400 watt draw that sparked this discussion is equal to 2 hair dryers set on max from the same outlet,not a good idea.

Indeed, feed you system well. I never denied that! But oh, dear, I must be slumming. Electric ovens, cooktops, hot water heaters, clothes dryers, big refrigerator/freezers (SubZero), strip heating, hot tubs, whirlpools, garden tubs, swimming pools, tennis courts, saunna, steam room, attic fans don't exist in your world? My wife has three 15A circuits in her dressing room alone just for all the vanity lights, hair dryers, hot rollers, hair curls, etc, etc., etc. 'cause like last time I looked, most were 1200 to 1500 watts each. And she feels about them like you feel about McIntosh eq—you just can't have too many or too much.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have had time to cogitate some more on this. And some other issues that are not readily apparent to the average use of this board are in play.

Factory Mutual through the NEC (in the USA, CSA in Canada) is forcing standardization on home/dwelling construction as maybe seen with 15A 120VAC circuit becoming the standard circuit size in most new construction (last 30 years or so.) Standard 3-blade outlets one sees nowdays are rated for 15A. It is against code to wire/use these (15A) receptacles on a 20A circuit. On 20A ckts, one must use receptacles rated for 20A (the ones with the rotated “T” for the “line” blade shown below.)
.

Do you have a code section for this? Certainly was not the case just 15 years ago.
Kitchens require 2-20A branch circuits and 15A outlets are approved by inspectors.
Same applies in dining rooms having one branch, living rooms as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..On 20A ckts, one must use receptacles rated for 20A (the ones with the rotated “T” for the “line” blade shown below.)

Common small applicances with low current needs may use wire smaller than #14AWG so the NEC want to prevent plugging these into a 20A source since these can become a fire hazard without the ckt bkr tripping.

These two contradict each other, no?

 

[2*pi*f*t]

These two contradict each other, no?

Hey, no doubt. But then ckts didn't use to have a ground wire either nor were Ground Fault Interupters (GFI) required. The problem is where FM wants to go and the path and timeline to get there—meaning how do you GRANDFATHER in all these pre-existing devices? The Feds can't just legislate the law and say those things are now illegal and these things are now required. Time works for them. Eventually things change. Look at moving to HD-TV. How many years? What was the path forward?

But seriously, this is to the layman's benefit since things now match. Gone is the confusion of brk sizes and device ratings. Wire sizes and outlet sizes. Its a Home Depot solution. A DIY thing, ordinary people should be able to pick up a book and have a clear and defined path to what is required without having to have an engineer to stand over them. This IS NOT rocket science. My God, look what the legislature has done to the law! You DO need a lawyer! Not so thankfully to wire your own house.

 

[2*pi*f*t]

Do you have a code section for this?

Here is a good place for to look:
Here and here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here is a good place for to look:
Here and here.

Thanks. Saved me a bunch of googoling time Interesting reading.
And, it supports what I was saying that you can use 15A outlets on a 20A branch as long as it is not a single outlet as for a garbage disposer or fridge, a 1 appliance branch. Problem solved.

 

[jneutron]

Here is a good place for to look:
Here and here.

The best place is of course, NEC. But I gotta tell ya, I absolutely love Mike's site as a reference. He provides excellent information.

Cheers, John