*POLL* 3 Sealed vs. 2 Ported

[cbecker33]

Building off this thread.

I ended up with dual SB3000s (and added a sealed DIY 12" that I had laying around). While I like them (and have had EXCELLENT support with SVS) I feel that I am missing some of the deep lows when in my sitting position and could use a bit more 'fill' for the room. With that in mind I have set out to 'upgrade'. Due to aesthetics, I really do not want a sub more than 23" deep. The 3 subs in the poll I think are my best options (though I'm open to suggestions). Obviously I can stick with the SB3000s...I can take advantage of SVSs 'upgrade' policy for the PB2000 Pros or I can sell what I have and buy the HSU.

Looking at the compilation (edited for easy reading) it seems obvious....

All opinions are welcome!


PS - yes, I received and ignored very good advice in my original thread.

 

[cbecker33]

Yes, I screwed up option #3 of my poll....

It reads:

• Dual HSU ULS-12 mk2 (+ DIY 12")

It should read:

• Dual HSU ULS-15 mk2 (+ DIY 12")

Can a mod help me out?

 

[NINaudio]

I'd go with the Hsu's if you want the infrasonics. The PB's if you want the most output in the 20-35hz range

 

[Timforhifi]

None of the above should be on there

 

[Am_P]

Set one or 2 of your existing subs "nearfield" right by you. It could rectify the "missing" and give you the "fill" that you're craving. Getting another army of ported subs may unnecessarily cost you money and just pressurize/terrorize the rest of your family members and neighbors. Don't terrorize them.

Just set your current subs in nearfield right where it needs to be... to give you the feeling of "filling" (right by your ass)...Surrender your ass to that subwoofwoof and just relax as it fills/ pressurizes you instead.

 

[3db]

Building off this thread.

I ended up with dual SB3000s (and added a sealed DIY 12" that I had laying around). While I like them (and have had EXCELLENT support with SVS) I feel that I am missing some of the deep lows when in my sitting position and could use a bit more 'fill' for the room. With that in mind I have set out to 'upgrade'. Due to aesthetics, I really do not want a sub more than 23" deep. The 3 subs in the poll I think are my best options (though I'm open to suggestions). Obviously I can stick with the SB3000s...I can take advantage of SVSs 'upgrade' policy for the PB2000 Pros or I can sell what I have and buy the HSU.

Looking at the compilation (edited for easy reading) it seems obvious....

View attachment 52938


All opinions are welcome!


PS - yes, I received and ignored very good advice in my original thread.

My question is simple, what tools did you use to place the subs in the room? If your missing something, then sub placement is incorrect if you used the sub crawl and did it by ear.

Here's an example of doing it my ear using the sub crawl (old location in red) and then searching for the sweet spot (new location in green) using REW and mic.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I would consider the PC2k pros since you’re already in SVS’s ecosystem. They will have more deep bass capabilities than the sb3k. If you were starting at zero I would probably recommend HSU since imo you get more for your money. Ditch the DIY until you get the other two set up, and then possibly try to integrate it. Sealed and ported can be difficult and just make things worse. Nearfield can make that somewhat easier. What is the room/floor construction? How big is the room?

Edit: lmao. I just went back to the original thread. I recommended dual pc4k’s then and I guess I still feel the same way. Since you’re already in svs.

 

[cbecker33]

None of the above should be on there

What should?

 

[cbecker33]

My question is simple, what tools did you use to place the subs in the room? If your missing something, then sub placement is incorrect if you used the sub crawl and did it by ear.

I used the ol' Mk1 Eyeball. This my main living space (not a theater room). The sub's placements are dictated by the layout of the room. I can shift the 'main' two left or right a foot or so, but that's it. They are 8' away from the main position of the 'theater' area.

The DIY has its on corner (and really only effects the fill of the rest of the room when we are entertaining guest NOT in the 'theater' area).

 

[cbecker33]

Set one or 2 of your existing subs "nearfield" right by you. It could rectify the "missing" and give you the "fill" that you're craving. Getting another army of ported subs may unnecessarily cost you money and just pressurize/terrorize the rest of your family members and neighbors. Don't terrorize them.

Just set your current subs in nearfield right where it needs to be... to give you the feeling of "filling" (right by your ass)...Surrender your ass to that subwoofwoof and just relax as it fills/ pressurizes you instead.

They are 8' away cannot be moved closer.

I do not want to terrorize my neighbors (any more than I have).

 

[cbecker33]

I would consider the PC2k pros since you’re already in SVS’s ecosystem. They will have more deep bass capabilities than the sb3k....

Edit: lmao. I just went back to the original thread. I recommended dual pc4k’s then and I guess I still feel the same way. Since you’re already in svs.

I didn't see the PC2000 Pro on the compilation, but glancing on SVS's site they look similar to the PB2000 Pro. If true I was told, "The PB-2000 Pros will have higher dynamic output in the 18-40 Hz bandwidth, where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi and also certain EDM/house music. And they are certainly no slouch in the mid/upper bass department and still retain excellent musicality – just a shade behind the SB-3000s".

I absolutely love how the SB3000s sound playing the majority of movies/music and I really don't want to give up the fantastic mid/upper to gain more low. Perhaps this is impossible with my criteria.

...If you were starting at zero I would probably recommend HSU since imo you get more for your money....

What's done is done and I'm OK with it costing me a bit of money to make it what I want.

What is the room/floor construction? How big is the room?

Main level is roughly 10k sq ft (one room) with hardwood floors and basement underneath. Engineered trusses span the width of the house (roughly 24').

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is interesting since you have two nice subs already. I honestly wonder if the 2k pro series is enough for that airspace. The LP is close though if you can get good FR it should be satisfying. Especially with a suspended floor. If you like the the sb3k’s then the pb/pc 2ks should do what you want. If you want more, then I’d look at the pc4k. And honestly if your looking at 2 grand per sub I’d start here.

Rythmik Audio • 18" servo subwoofer FV18

Also, PSA is worth a look too. But in the last two cases, size is not your friend aesthetically speaking as you mentioned. In my minds eye though, 10k cuft seems like you’d have enough room to fudge in some big subs.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also fwiw. The pc versions are good for an extra .5db if extension. Completely negligible, but it’s still there. Lol.

 

[cbecker33]

This is interesting since you have two nice subs already. I honestly wonder if the 2k pro series is enough for that airspace. The LP is close though if you can get good FR it should be satisfying. Especially with a suspended floor. If you like the the sb3k’s then the pb/pc 2ks should do what you want....

I'm surprised that the HSU wouldn't be better - it looks to be 'on paper'; no?

.... And honestly if your looking at 2 grand per sub I’d start here.

Rythmik Audio • 18" servo subwoofer FV18

Dimensions	21"(W) x 33" (H )x 22"(D) - (23" D with grille and heatsink)
Shipping Weight	180 lbs (160lbs gross)

Oh, that would be a subtle addition to the room.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm surprised that the HSU wouldn't be better - it looks to be 'on paper'; no?

Dimensions	21"(W) x 33" (H )x 22"(D) - (23" D with grille and heatsink)
Shipping Weight	180 lbs (160lbs gross)

Oh, that would be a subtle addition to the room.

Lol. Not subtle at all! But once you feel them, you won’t care how big they are lol.

Yes. The HSU is better on paper, but in my memory it’s bigger than you wanted. Trying to multitask so can’t really dig for specs at the moment. Plus the upgrade path through svs makes it much easier.

 

[cbecker33]

Lol. Not subtle at all! But once you feel them, you won’t care how big they are lol.

Yes. The HSU is better on paper, but in my memory it’s bigger than you wanted. Trying to multitask so can’t really dig for specs at the moment. Plus the upgrade path through svs makes it much easier.

Fair, enough - I'll add it to the first post.

 

[Am_P]

They are 8' away cannot be moved closer.

I do not want to terrorize my neighbors (any more than I have).

Since you have a large open concept layout living room where aesthetics are a concern, the chatter about full room "pressurization" from a ported subwoofer army, commonly thrown around on forums like these shouldn't be what you are thinking about. For instance, you could go enjoy a live show outdoors with copious amounts of bass where none of this "full room pressurization" chatter is even applicable. Nearfield can be an easier blanket solution, which is why i mentioned that you give it a try earlier i.e. if you don't have too much time to educate yourself/research/experiment further.

The lack of a perception of room "filling" bass can also very much occur due to deficiencies much higher than 80hz. How did you even decide/perceive that it's the deep lows under 20 hz at authoritative levels that you are actually missing? Your SB3000s dig deep and are very capable subs. If you buy 3 more ported subs that hit down to 16 hz, but, you are unable to resolve room modes and sbir issues, you may end up dealing with even more of a clusterfck (much stronger nulls/suckouts and the increased perception of a 1 note boom boom boom).

Resolve SBIR and current modal issues first...Assuming you don't have min of 4 ft of space behind your LCRS/frontwall (at which point you can push SBIR impacted frequencies down to your subs), your LCR woofers are greatly impacted by SBIR. When SBIR is resolved, you could regain the perception of a lack of room filling bass. As i said earlier, it is not the infrasonic band that you may be missing. If you are not a DIY/handy guy, the likes of GIK acoustics offer 5to6 inch thick broadband traps at a fairly affordable cost. You can't just EQ your way out of any of this. Some forum knobs will suggest that room correction software is a magic fix for everything. It just doesn't work that way.

The Harman room mode calc. or similar will let you map out all your room modes. Unfortunately, It won't be accurate on a large open floorplan (depending on what your layout is, odd shaped, etc), but, with some measurements and a little bit of trial and error you can start to hone in your modal nulls. If your listening position is impacted by certain modal harmonics under 80 hz, you can remove these nulls completely by just moving your current subs to a null point of that harmonic. In fact, even with 2 subs, you could possibly address a few modes especially/or at least the ones that are impacting your listening position, (ie if you can't change your listening position). Above these sub frequencies, you need treatment.

Focus on quality bass (not quantity) first and an improved understanding of your room's acoustics...Try to approach it like a fine jewelry maker, not a lumberjack...

 

[cbecker33]

Since you have a large open concept layout living room where aesthetics are a concern, the chatter about full room "pressurization" from a ported subwoofer army, commonly thrown around on forums like these shouldn't be what you are thinking about. For instance, you could go enjoy a live show outdoors with copious amounts of bass where none of this "full room pressurization" chatter is even applicable. Nearfield can be an easier blanket solution, which is why i mentioned that you give it a try earlier i.e. if you don't have too much time to educate yourself/research/experiment further.

I appreciate the suggestions but, due to room layout, this would end up putting subs out in the main walkway of the room.

The lack of a perception of room "filling" bass can also very much occur due to deficiencies much higher than 80hz. How did you even decide/perceive that it's the deep lows under 20 hz at authoritative levels that you are actually missing? Your SB3000s dig deep and are very capable subs.

I was listening to a few of the tracks in the Bass Candy thread. The sweeps started off sounding great but as they progressed lower I perceived a change audible/physical to physical then to the subwoofer making mechanical noise but not producing anything audible/physical.

If you buy 3 more ported subs that hit down to 16 hz, but, you are unable to resolve room modes and sbir issues, you may end up dealing with even more of a clusterfck (much stronger nulls/suckouts and the increased perception of a 1 note boom boom boom).

Resolve SBIR and current modal issues first...Assuming you don't have min of 4 ft of space behind your LCRS/frontwall (at which point you can push SBIR impacted frequencies down to your subs), your LCR woofers are greatly impacted by SBIR. When SBIR is resolved, you could regain the perception of a lack of room filling bass. As i said earlier, it is not the infrasonic band that you may be missing.

I've got 9" from the wall to the back of my Monolith THX-365Ts. 4' would put them on my ottoman and my dog would need to be displaced. Perhaps I am asking too much from these mini towers? I was going to buy another set of the same for rears but I could move these to the rears and purchase Monolith THX-465Ts for the fronts if that is a wiser choice.

If you are not a DIY/handy guy, the likes of GIK acoustics offer 5to6 inch thick broadband traps at a fairly affordable cost. You can't just EQ your way out of any of this. Some forum knobs will suggest that room correction software is a magic fix for everything. It just doesn't work that way.

The Harman room mode calc. or similar will let you map out all your room modes. Unfortunately, It won't be accurate on a large open floorplan (depending on what your layout is, odd shaped, etc), but, with some measurements and a little bit of trial and error you can start to hone in your modal nulls. If your listening position is impacted by certain modal harmonics under 80 hz, you can remove these nulls completely by just moving your current subs to a null point of that harmonic. In fact, even with 2 subs, you could possibly address a few modes especially/or at least the ones that are impacting your listening position, (ie if you can't change your listening position). Above these sub frequencies, you need treatment.

Interesting points about room treatments and one I should have considered. We are adding furniture to the room and we had removed our rug many months back (due to an aging dog) that will be replaced. How great of impact would adding a large rug and a few furnishings make?

Focus on quality bass (not quantity) first and an improved understanding of your room's acoustics...Try to approach it like a fine jewelry maker, not a lumberjack...

Solid point.

Your information is much appreciated, thank you. I think I may have overestimated the importance of filling the room with bass. The more I realize that, barring numerous subs in ideal positions and/or monster ported subs (which I am unwilling to do for aesthetic reasons), I should focus on the thing we do most - watch movies/TV in our 'theater area'.

 

[Am_P]

I appreciate the suggestions but, due to room layout, this would end up putting subs out in the main walkway of the room.

I was listening to a few of the tracks in the Bass Candy thread. The sweeps started off sounding great but as they progressed lower I perceived a change audible/physical to physical then to the subwoofer making mechanical noise but not producing anything audible/physical.

Sweeps? Are you listening to music or sweeps? I am a bit confused by this...

I've got 9" from the wall to the back of my Monolith THX-365Ts. 4' would put them on my ottoman and my dog would need to be displaced. Perhaps I am asking too much from these mini towers? I was going to buy another set of the same for rears but I could move these to the rears and purchase Monolith THX-465Ts for the fronts if that is a wiser choice.

Interesting points about room treatments and one I should have considered. We are adding furniture to the room and we had removed our rug many months back (due to an aging dog) that will be replaced. How great of impact would adding a large rug and a few furnishings make?

Solid point.

Your information is much appreciated, thank you. I think I may have overestimated the importance of filling the room with bass. The more I realize that, barring numerous subs in ideal positions and/or monster ported subs (which I am unwilling to do for aesthetic reasons), I should focus on the thing we do most - watch movies/TV in our 'theater area'.

Ideally, you would need to scale it up with capable mains/bedlayer speakers and more surface area/output for the mid bass drivers, mid drivers, etc for a large room. Tiny li'l LCRs paired with an army of ported subs ?!?! well, that's more of an absurd av forum obsession i.e., keep increasing the ported subwoofer count when everything else is subpar... If you're in a large room, you also need bed layer speakers that mean business.

Since you have your speakers 9 inches from the wall, you would add your speaker's depth to it (19ish inches?), and you have sbir issues above your sub crossover and under 200hz. This would be well above the typical crossover point for your subs and hence you can't resolve it with your subs. This is one of the reasons that it is recommended that one pulls speakers about 4 ft from the front wall a.k.a imaging/soundstage/etc improves and you can push SBIR impacted frequencies under the sub crossover point. If you can't do that, you would need to 4 to 6 inches of broadband absorption panels behind your speakers at least (not high in the sky, but right where your woofers are) and behind your listening position. If you pushed your speakers closer to the wall, sbir frequencies get pushed higher up and you can get away with thinner panels a.k.a the higher the frequencies, the thinner the panels you can get away with, but, now you're compromised with imaging etc. So, it's a bit of a balancing act i.e. if you don't have the freedom to pull it way out from the front wall.

 

[cbecker33]

Sweeps? Are you listening to music or sweeps? I am a bit confused by this...

Both. I have odd tastes.

Ideally, you would need to scale it up with capable mains/bedlayer speakers and more surface area/output for the mid bass drivers, mid drivers, etc for a large room. Tiny li'l LCRs paired with an army of ported subs ?!?! well, that's more of an absurd av forum obsession i.e., keep increasing the ported subwoofer count when everything else is subpar... If you're in a large room, you also need bed layer speakers that mean business.

I have a feeling you wouldn't like my car then, either.

Seriously, though:

1. These 'Tiny li'l LCRs' use two 6.5” bass drivers, a 2” midrange dome, and a 1” dome tweeter and reviewed quite well on this site. They are certainly not towers but I can add those if more is needed up front.
2. Army of ported subs? I don't even own one.
3. Unless I am misunderstanding I don't think the 'bed layer speakers' will make up for the lack of low (low?) lows I perceive.

Since you have your speakers 9 inches from the wall, you would add your speaker's depth to it (19ish inches?), and you have sbir issues above your sub crossover and under 200hz. This would be well above the typical crossover point for your subs and hence you can't resolve it with your subs. This is one of the reasons that it is recommended that one pulls speakers about 4 ft from the front wall a.k.a imaging/soundstage/etc improves and you can push SBIR impacted frequencies under the sub crossover point. If you can't do that, you would need to 4 to 6 inches of broadband absorption panels behind your speakers at least (not high in the sky, but right where your woofers are) and behind your listening position. If you pushed your speakers closer to the wall, sbir frequencies get pushed higher up and you can get away with thinner panels a.k.a the higher the frequencies, the thinner the panels you can get away with, but, now you're compromised with imaging etc. So, it's a bit of a balancing act i.e. if you don't have the freedom to pull it way out from the front wall.

Either you guessed extremely well or you took the time to look at the dimension of my speakers. If it is the latter, I appreciate it. In my experience, it's rare to find someone online offering help based on research and expertise!

This I can do - I will look at purchasing some panels to play around with. I need to go back through and set things up with greater care. Perhaps after my army or ported shows up...