Please Help with $5000 Audio Set-up

[whubbard]

Okay, So i'm not sure if anyone remembers my old posts, but I'm changing things up. I was intially going to to do a full rehaul of my 7.1 system, but considering that it is mainly used for music, and the only movies I watch are viewed on my 24" monitor I decided to use my money on a nicer 2 channel setup. All that I'm going to do for the 7.1 is add my two dayton 15" subs.

So I'm lost on exactly how to spend my $5000. The components that will be pluged into this audio system are a McIntosh MCD7009, a Rega P2 through a NAD PP-2, and a Micrsoft Zune. (<- I'm going to get better sources sometime...although I LOVE the MCD and Rega) I want this two be a really nice 2 channel setup. The music listened too will be classic rock, and some pop.

What I really need is something to connect these RCA's to the speakers, and I'm lost. Do I wan't just an amp? Do I want a Pre/Pro to an Amp? Do I wan't tube amps? How much should I spend on the Pre/Pro or Amp vs. the Speakers? If It will let me get better speakers I don't mind having to switch the RCA connectors manually depending on what I'm listening too...frankly I would prefer this so I can put together a better interconnect, and only have one (I'm a DIY guy...interconnects will be hand built, Cat5 speaker cables are also going to be made). I've been thinking about the B&W 804S...Is $1000 Enought for the amp? I probably wont be purchasing till summer, but if needed I can't wait a bit longer if I need more than $1000 for the amp, but I like the 804s.

THANKS

 

[WmAx]

Frankly, I was far more impressed by the newer B&W CM7, and it's much lower in cost. It sounded more neutral on high quality classical/acoustic recordings. Given your budget, I would get the CM7, get two good quality subwoofers, use one near each CM7, and use a Behringer DCX2496 to *perfectly* integrate the subwoofers with the mains. For amplifiers, no reason to spend much. Get an Emotiva for cost effective unit. Or for even cheaper price, a used Adcom from eBay. Something like a GFA-555II would do perfectly. Purchase a high quality used pre-amplifier from eBay. An Acurus or Adcom are generally superb technically, but low in cost. Spend the rest of your money on acoustic room treatments. The DCX2496 also has high precision equalizer functions -- and with a smooth response unit like the CM7 -- you can easily fine tune the sound signature to your preference. This combination will allow you to have very high dynamic range(unusually high). The only weaknesses I can really point out in the CM7 is the lack of low bass extension and low bass SPL -- both rendered not an issue using the active DSP crossover and stereo subs and the noticed cabinet resonance -- but almost all speakers have cabinet resonance issues. You need to move to something extreme like a B&W 802D to drastically improve on this issue.

You can get the 804 along with a higher cost amplifier and I believe it highly unlikely it would come close to the sound quality possible with the above recommended combination.

Before you discount my opinion, it may serve you well to search my posting history for an idea of the value of my technical recommendations in regards to speaker system(s) relative to the weighting of perceptual research. I do not make my recommendations loosely.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

Amplifiers power speakers, preamplifiers supply amplifiers with signal. An integrated amplifier is a preamplifier and amplifier combined into one package. A receiver is an amplifier, preamplifier and a tuner crammed into one package. I would recommend getting this combo from Emotiva (scroll to the bottom of the page to the RSP-1/RPA-1 combo.

http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

That preamp and amplifier combo would work great for what you would need. Speaker terminations are not done by RCA anymore, and when they did do that it was typically reserved for low budget gear. Line level connections between the CD player and record player will still be RCA however.

 

[WmAx]

Amplifiers power speakers, preamplifiers supply amplifiers with signal. An integrated amplifier is a preamplifier and amplifier combined into one package. A receiver is an amplifier, preamplifier and a tuner crammed into one package. I would recommend getting this combo from Emotiva (scroll to the bottom of the page to the RSP-1/RPA-1 combo.

http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

That preamp and amplifier combo would work great for what you would need. Speaker terminations are not done by RCA anymore, and when they did do that it was typically reserved for low budget gear. Line level connections between the CD player and record player will still be RCA however.

Be certain there is an external bypass loop from the integrated preamplifier to amplifier. Otherwise, always get separate units to enable external routing/processing such as that provided by a DCX2496, which can drastically increase your sound quality in proper use.

 

[Seth=L]

Be certain there is an external bypass loop from the integrated preamplifier to amplifier. Otherwise, always get separate units to enable external routing/processing such as that provided by a DCX2496, which can drastically increase your sound quality in proper use.

The Emotiva RSP-1 does have the external processor in/out feature for Equalization.

 

[whubbard]

Thanks!!! You just saved me a fair bit of money...and time.

That setup seems very appealing to me, especially as I really like emotiva. They were the first amp i thought of, but then I thought I would wan't two seperate amps, but this makes much more sense.

If you think I should include subs, I'm going to use my dual 15" dayton RS HF subs which I'm building. I will uses these with the behringer feedback destroyer for calibration. I've got a good SPL meter, and REW all set up. Won't that work just fine?

I also plan to put together 2 DIY power cables, DIY Cat5 Speaker cables, and DIY RCA interconnects (VH-Audio). I feel like they will be worth it, what do you think?

p.s. I can still return my BFD...so if you think i should use the DCX2496 let me know...I'm just not totally sure how the 2496 hooks into the system...after the pre/pro, but before the amp?

Thanks

 

[WmAx]

Thanks!!! You just saved me a fair bit of money...and time.

That setup seems very appealing to me, especially as I really like emotiva. They were the first amp i thought of, but then I thought I would wan't two seperate amps, but this makes much more sense.

If you think I should include subs, I'm going to use my dual 15" dayton RS HF subs which I'm building. I will uses these with the behringer feedback destroyer for calibration. I've got a good SPL meter, and REW all set up. Won't that work just fine?

I also plan to put together 2 DIY power cables, DIY Cat5 Speaker cables, and DIY RCA interconnects (VH-Audio). I feel like they will be worth it, what do you think?


Thanks

No need for the Feedback Destroyer. Use the DCX. It also has parametric bands. You will need the DCX to properly integrate to the CM7 speakers. As for the bass amplifier -- if you are going DIY -- go ahead and use a Behringer EP2500. It is more flexible, and probably better built than the plate amplifiers.


-Chris

 

[whubbard]

Already got the EP-2500 for my Subs

So my hookup would be:
Source
to
Emotiva Pre/Pro
to
DCX2496 to EP-2500 to Subs
to
Emotiva Amp
to
Speakers

Also, I have heard the CM7 and 703s are very similar expect the 703s have a 'wider soundstage'. Do you feel this is the case?

Also would I be able on the DCX2496 to take the one XLR input and have it Output to 2 XLRs for the subs?

THANK!

EDIT: I looked at the previous posts, and the back of the emotiva. Do I use the External Processor In/Out?

 

[WmAx]

I have never used the Emotiva. You need to check with Emotiva to be sure that the OUT of the loop is AFTER the pre-amp gain stage so you have volume control out to the DCX. Otherwise, you need to use seperate components.

The DCX has 3 analog inputs and 6 analog outputs. You can configure/distribute these in any way you can imagine - it is not limited. You can even apply a different EQ and crossover to every single output if you so desire.

BTW, if you send the DCX output XLR to a consumer level(RCA) input, you need to ideally use either a 10db L-Pad resistor network(or premade attenuation inline adapters) on an adapter cable or use an ART Cleanbox. But you can directly connect consumer level output to DCX input with just an adapter cable.

As for soundstage -- these are monopole speakers with very similar off axis response we are talking about here. You will best address 'soundstage' with room treatments and positioning as well as subtle EQ with the DCX. BTW, there are excellent DIY options available now for DIYers. One such excellent example are Ready Acoustics Chamelon frames. They are about $30 each, and high quality metal, and all you have to do is wrap some cheap fabric around some low cost mineral wool board and insert it into the frame. It's hardly DIY, but low cost, easy and looks great. Do not underestimate the value of room treatments. They are critical in optimizing your sound quality. If you really want to optimize 'sound stage', you can buy an extra set of the CM7 tweeters and make a small cosmetic enclosure to sit on the top of the cabinets and point the tweeters to the rear; use the small low cost Emotiva amp to power the tweeters and route the 2 unused DCX channels to the small tweeter amplifier. Crossover at about 3000-4000Hz and vary volume. This will SUBSTANTIALLY increase the apparent realism and ambiance in a properly treated room with proper set up/placement. Warning: you need 3.5-5 feet from the rear of the speakers to the back wall for this trick to work. I have checked with B&W and they sell the drivers separate. The tweeter is between $70-80 each.

-Chris

 

[whubbard]

Hehe...Already got the ART Cleanbox as well...I come prepared. (I needed it for the BFD)

All ask emotiva if the OUT Loop is after the Gain stage. If it turns out that it isn't, what do I do?

Also, on the 703 vs. CM7...?? I hear the 703 has a bigger soundstage...which I like...then again, is it worth the $1000. I also hear people like the 683.

 

[WmAx]

Hehe...Already got the ART Cleanbox as well...I come prepared. (I needed it for the BFD)

All ask emotiva if the OUT Loop is after the Gain stage. If it turns out that it isn't, what do I do?

Also, on the 703 vs. CM7...?? I hear the 703 has a bigger soundstage...which I like...then again, is it worth the $1000. I also hear people like the 683.

Please read my last paragraph. I added some info about how to drastically enhance soundstage/ambiance.

As for the in/out of that integrated unit, if the volume is not before output to preouts, it is useless for this application. You will have to find separate pre-amplifier and amplifier.

I can see no reason to suggest anything over the CM7 unless you are prepared to go to a unit like the 802D. This will get you substantial upgrade in sound quality, due to the completely inaudible cabinet system utilized.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

I have never used the Emotiva. You need to check with Emotiva to be sure that the OUT of the loop is AFTER the pre-amp gain stage so you have volume control out to the DCX. Otherwise, you need to use seperate components.

What do you mean seperate components? Like a preamplifier and amplifier seperate? Or do you mean that it doesn't fit the criteria? The Emotiva RSP-1's external processor loop should work just like any other preamplifier external processing loop, what other purpose would it have?

 

[whubbard]

This all makes a lot of sense now. Here is my cost breakdown:

$2000 - B&W CS7s
$1980 - DIY: 3 power cables, 4 rca interconnects, 2 pairs of XLR interconnects, Cat5 Speaker cables
$1299 - Emotiva RSP/RPA
$750 - 6 Chameleon Acoustic Traps
$450 - Panamax 5400-PM
------
Total = $6479

 

[Seth=L]

This all makes a lot of sense now. Here is my cost breakdown:

$2000 - B&W CS7s
$1980 - DIY: 3 power cables, 4 rca interconnects, 2 pairs of XLR interconnects, Cat5 Speaker cables
$1299 - Emotiva RSP/RPA
$750 - 6 Chameleon Acoustic Traps
$450 - Panamax 5400-PM
------
Total = $6479

Woah, hold the phone. You have a budget for cables that almost matches your speaker budget, not to sound rude, but that is an aweful waste of your hard earned money. If you want to build your own cables there are certainly much more cost effective alternatives. Buying from monoprice or bluejeans cables will get you stellar quality (already made cables) for much less than what you are looking to spend. I say cut that cabling budget down to $200 and spend more on speakers. Where on God's Green Earth where you planning to order your cabling from?

I also don't think there is much point in making speaker cables out of cat5 cabling. Don't believe the hype, cables don't enhance your sound. Fancy spade connectors don't enhance the sound. What determines your sound are your recordings, speakers, room acoustics, and after that it becomes trivial to a point. Amplifiers would be the next logical impact on your sound quality, but this is mainly an issue of "can it deliver the power I need for my speakers in my room for my listening habits?". There are some other small factors in amplification like the noise floor and the same goes for preamps. The front end can be trivial as well. Not saying there is anything wrong with having a nice CD or record player, because it can make a difference (like mechanical noise with the CD player, cheap players make lots of noise sometimes) and the record players typically get better the more you pay (cartridges and all that good stuff). The last thing that, and it really shouldn't be on the list, would be cabling. They make little to no impact assuming the gauge is high enough and it is sheilded.

 

[WmAx]

This all makes a lot of sense now. Here is my cost breakdown:

$2000 - B&W CS7s
$1980 - DIY: 3 power cables, 4 rca interconnects, 2 pairs of XLR interconnects, Cat5 Speaker cables
$1299 - Emotiva RSP/RPA
$750 - 6 Chameleon Acoustic Traps
$450 - Panamax 5400-PM
------
Total = $6479

Cable budget way too high. Reduce that $1980.00 to about $300.00. I don't recommend CAT5 cables. Capacitance in the general construction method of these DIY CAT 5 speaker cables is high, which can cause some amplifiers to oscillate and self-destruct. If you want a fancy cable type, highly recommend an alternative construction.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

Cable budget way too high. Reduce that $1980.00 to about $300.00. I don't recommend CAT5 cables. Capacitance in the general construction method of these DIY CAT 5 speaker cables is high, which can cause some amplifiers to oscillate and self-destruct. If you want a fancy cable type, highly recommend an alternative construction.

-Chris

LOL I didn't know that cat5 was dangerous.

 

[WmAx]

I don't see the stereo subs listed above or the DCX2496. Nor the additional tweeters and the small Emotiva BPA amp for the tweeters. I did recommend a system configuration that can yield results exceeding what one could ordinarily expect.

Here is the item breakdown as I would do it:

You stated you already have two Dayton Reference 15" subs you are building and an EP2500 and ART Cleanbox. So I will not include these in the list. These are, of course, CRITICAL in the configuration I have presented.

-$1800.00 B&W CM7
-$699.00 Emotiva RPA-1
-$629.00 Emotiva RSP-1
-$129.00 Emotiva BPA-1 for rear firing boxes
-$275.00 Behringer DCX2496
-$150.00 2 Spare CM7 Tweeters for the rear firing boxes
-$300.00 Cables
-$500.00 Power protection

-$4482.00 TOTAL

Use the $518.00 left over for acoustical treatments. Spending more is better, as you should have more than 6 panels. But you must realize, I am overkill in audio, and I have hundreds of square feet of acoustic panels/treatments, so I am used to being able to set them up in any way I see fit. If you go total DIY on the panels, you can build twice as many for the same price. But it's hard to give up the convenience of the slick looking Ready Acoustics frames.

You can save several hundred dollars if you want to buy used amplifier/pre-amp on eBay.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

You can save several hundred dollars if you want to buy used amplifier/pre-amp on eBay

Right, the before mentioned Adcom and Acurus are good choices in the used market. Parasound and Rotel also come to mind. Audiogon is another good place to look, especially if you are looking to find something that is in good condition and will be packed well.

 

[whubbard]

Well I was planning on building silver inconnect wires from VenHaus, I was also going to build Flavor power cables from VenHaus, but when I think about it...it does make sense that I should use that money for a better Pre/Pro and Amp.

Thanks sooo much for knocking some sense into me! Maybe if I was buying $100,000 speakers I should spend that on cables!! I just get sooo sidetracked when its DIY, as I think im getting a bargain.

Now I did end up deciding to go with the 804s, I really want that soundstage and my parents will be getting them for me as a gift, so I just saved myself a bit, and I'm getting better speakers.

I'm really liking the look of the Parasound Halo JC 2 / A 21 . The only thing that concerns me is how I will power my subwoofers. Will I just use the outs on the DCX as a bass output?

I'm also going to get an HD Radio, now that I have the extra cash. Sangean HDT-1X

I really don't know what I was thinking with those cables!!

p.s. I've always loved Blue Jeans Cable (have about 300ft of stuff combined from them)...really don't know what I was thinking (i'm so ashamed right now)

What is even more sad is that cables are not even part of the budget anymore...i've got enough good ones already.

 

[whubbard]

Whoa, Didn't realize the price on the JC 2...damn.

What do you all recommend for a 200W Pre/Pro and Amp for around $2000-2500.
I'm leaning towards the parasounds right now...but would like your input. (parasound P3 / A21)

The only other thing I'm thinking is that I wouldn't mind spending $2500 on a really good amp and then switching the interconnect manually. (I'd connect the source to the DCX for correction first) Is there any downside to doing this? I mean...hell, if it means I get better sound, I'll deal with the 30 second change.

I like the emotiva, but its only 100W and I really want to make sure I give the 804s enough power.