Please help! Thinking of replacing my receiver!

[Steve81]

Hi Mark,

From the linked article:

To start, it is worth taking a look at an equal loudness curve. You’ll notice that the threshold of hearing varies by frequency (it takes a large amount of acoustic output for us to hear a 20Hz tone, relative to 1kHz for example), and if you study the curves closely, you’ll being to see how the ear perceives jumps in SPL. At 1kHz, a 10dB gain correlates with a perceived doubling of loudness in some frequency ranges. As you go down in frequency, however, you’ll find that the lines start to compress together: Instead of needing a 10dB gain to double perceived volume, you will need roughly 4-5dB in the deep bass frequencies. Further, remembering that we feel as well as hear deep bass, and taking into account that a 6dB gain corresponds with a doubling of acoustic pressure, one may better appreciate the previous example of the SVS PB12-Plus versus the PB12-NSD.

Just to illustrate:

At the 10 phon line, you need 10dB at 1kHz, but ~75dB at 20Hz; at 90 phon, you need 90dB at 1kHz, but instead of needing a comparable 80dB rise at 20Hz, you only need 45dB to meet that same jump.

Keep in mind that we're talking the entire audio spectrum, not a narrow band of frequencies. I've heard of someone drowning in 6" of water, too.

That's why my original statement was qualified with "down low"

 

[markw]

So, exactly what frequencies were you referring to? Subwoofer frequencies?

 

[Steve81]

So, exactly what frequencies were you referring to?

The "squeezing" is most evident in the bottom octave, though even at 100Hz, you'll note the 100 phon line is ~105dB vs the 10 phon line at 30dB, indicating that doesn't need a full 10dB to double perceived loudness either.

Subwoofer frequencies?

What do you have against bass? As near as I can tell, it'd be a shock to some people if you told them there was more to music than the bottom two octaves.

 

[markw]

The "squeezing" is most evident in the bottom octave, though even at 100Hz, you'll note the 100 phon line is ~105dB vs the 10 phon line at 30dB, indicating that doesn't need a full 10dB to double perceived loudness either.


What do you have against bass? As near as I can tell, it'd be a shock to some people if you told them there was more to music than the bottom two octaves.

What makes you think I have anything against bass? I like bass fine, but that wasn't the subject under discusion here. The rest of us were discussing receivers, which just happen to reproduce everything else except deep bass.

It's nice to know that you'll try to derail an otherwise viable thread just so you can throw in some pedantic fact in an attempt to impress that really has nothing to do with what's being discussed.

 

[Steve81]

What makes you think I have anything against bass? I like bass fine, but that wasn't the subject under discusion here. The rest of us were discussing receivers, which just happen to reproduce everything else except deep bass.

It's nice to know that you'll try to derail an otherwise viable thread just so you can throw in some pedantic fact in an attempt to impress that really has nothing to do with what's being discussed.

Except that the OP hasn't mentioned having a subwoofer, so his receiver may very well be asked to produce deep bass (hence why I asked). Further, it was only a note in passing to avengineer until you took it upon yourself to try and call me on it.

 

[avengineer]

The Decibel (dB) Scale & Audio Rules 101 | Audioholics

The section titled "A Word on Human Perception of Loudness". Granted, it's ostensibly a self-reference, but that tidbit of knowledge was dropped by Ed Mullen, and makes sense when you look at the equal loudness curve.

Your article sort of misinterprets what the equal loudness curves represent. The paragraph referenced below:

"To start, it is worth taking a look at an equal loudness curve. You’ll notice that the threshold of hearing varies by frequency (it takes a large amount of acoustic output for us to hear a 20Hz tone, relative to 1kHz for example), and if you study the curves closely, you’ll being to see how the ear perceives jumps in SPL. At 1kHz, a 10dB gain correlates with a perceived doubling of loudness in some frequency ranges. As you go down in frequency, however, you’ll find that the lines start to compress together: Instead of needing a 10dB gain to double perceived volume, you will need roughly 4-5dB in the deep bass frequencies."

The curves show the SPL required to achieve equal loudness to a mid band reference and does not reflect the general perception of a doubling of loudness at all. The rate of loudness change for a single critical band (the bottom one) is different from that of the mid band, that is true, but since loudness perception is by nature a composite of all critical bands, and concentrated in the more central critical bands, the fact that the low extreme changes at a different rate does not materially figure into the perception of a doubling of loudness.

You are correct in specific, but it's meaningless when talking about power amplifiers output power and the resulting loudness change potential. In addition to perceived loudness being weighted away from the low extreme, the change in potential maximum loudness from a power amp upgrade occurs at the high SPL end where the LF curves are farther apart, and more similar to that of the mid band.

 

[Steve81]

I'll send a PM since someone got upset that I derailed the thread.

 

[ImcLoud]

I'll send a PM since someone got upset that I derailed the thread.

Steve I wouldn't worry about it, I think the OP got scared away by now, lol...

As far as loudness goes, I personally think 20% is a huge difference when you are already around 95db... If someone has a system {like the op} that he or she is not happy with {in the loudness sense}, then they would be best served spending $30 on a db meter, testing their current level, then visiting a showroom and testing the level they want to be in. If their current system is 95DB and they figured out they want to be at 105db, then add the appropriate amount of power and be done with it {assuming the speakers are capable}.. because if you spent money on the system and you are not happy with it, its kind of a waste...

Now I am thinking the op's issue is most likely a set up issue. Im thinking he has no {or not enough} sub, the fronts aren't crossed correctly... A properly sized sub with that speaker/avr setup should be enough for a pretty large room... his fronts have a sens rating of 91.5db with the avrs amp section pushing over 125w, that should be plenty for anyone. UNLESS they have hearing loss or a huge room with the speakers placed far away from the listener.... At 15 feet with 125 watts he should have almost 100db, I dont think I have ever watched a movie at 100db.... Something is wrong with the setup or equipment...

 

[Adam]

Yikes. I think that I got a little back splash from the p*ssing contest going on here. No, no...I didn't like it. Much.

No reason for the tension, guys. It's all good info. Mark, more people than Steve were talking about subwoofers, bass, and power to drive speakers because that's a viable theory for why the OP thought his system lacks dynamics. Plus, the OP asked if the 7125 amp would be enough to drive his speakers.

 

[avengineer]

Everyone sees things differently. I never thought it was a p***ing contest at all, but rather a few people sharing ideas and trying to clarify concepts for those less familiar with them. Steve was exactly correct in what he said about low frequencies, and others (myself and Mark in post #20) pointed out what kind of full spectrum power changes do to actual SPL. The only problem here was that nature of posting in forums is sort of "push-to-talk" vs full duplex conversation. We could have clarified everything in a minute or two if we were all out having lunch. I think all players probably recognize that in general the OP needs to grab an SPL meter to determine what he has/needs for volume and how to get there, and a sub or two if he doesn't have them, or turn on the sub if it's there and not working. The way it goes is sort of the nature of forums, it's a shame, and it burns time, but buried in here is good info.

 

[Adam]

I never thought it was a p***ing contest at all...

I was mostly kidding , but I was referring to posts #24, #25, and #27.

 

[ImcLoud]

"pissing contests" are all fun and games until someone loses an eye...

 

[RichB]

For movies, I adjust the volume until I am comfortable with the center channel level.
Once this is achieved, my subject volume rankings are:

• 1 DB increase is noticable
• 3 DB is significatant,
• 6 DB is large, and
• 10 DB is huge.

I understand the pysics but I also think that an amp with headroom, Speakres that do not compress much, and a room that is not completely dead, all come contribute to the perceived "liveliness".

- Rich

 

[Steve81]

No reason for the tension, guys.

No worries; things have been worked out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder if the 975/7125 combo would drive the Focal 826V's

I use just a Denon 3312 w/ my 826V and play to 100dBC from 4m just fine. So I think the 7125 will do just fine.

The 826V has a sensitivity of about 91dB. So it takes 100 watts x 2 ch to produce a SPL of 100dB from 2 speakers at a distance of 5 meters, or 64 watts from 4m distance. So 125+ watts should be fine IMO.

 

[markw]

FWIW, those Focals might be great speakers, at least for music, but from looking at their specs, one really sholuldn't be expecting too much from them on the low end to begin with, particularly for home theatre usage, no matter how much power you throw at them. Here's Stereophiles take on than, just in case.

Trying to get home theatre quality deep bass out of them that way is like putting a band-aid on a cut that requires stiches.

If deep, loud HT bass is what he craves, he needs to look into a subwoofer or two.

Also, that "dull and lifeless" comment makes me wonder as well. I really don't think any amp will change that. Just because many people or reviewers say a speaker is great, the final abritrator on how good a particular speaker actually is, is ones own ears. Did OP listen carefully to these before purchasing them, and with what equipment?

 

[panteragstk]

If deep, loud HT bass is what he craves, he needs to look into a subwoofer or two.

Also, that "dull and lifeless" comment makes me wonder as well. I really don't think any amp will change that. Just because many people or reviewers say a speaker is great, the final abritrator on how good a particular speaker actually is, is ones own ears. Did OP listen carefully to these before purchasing them, and with what equipment?

The "dull and lifeless" statement is what makes me wonder if there is some sort of configuration issue. Now if he think it's "lifeless" because there isn't thunderous bass, that's where your sub recommendation comes in.

Wish the OP would post so we could find out.

 

[RichB]

FWIW, those Focals might be great speakers, at least for music, but from looking at their specs, one really sholuldn't be expecting too much from them on the low end to begin with, particularly for home theatre usage, no matter how much power you throw at them. Here's Stereophiles take on than, just in case.

Trying to get home theatre quality deep bass out of them that way is like putting a band-aid on a cut that requires stiches.

If deep, loud HT bass is what he craves, he needs to look into a subwoofer or two.

Also, that "dull and lifeless" comment makes me wonder as well. I really don't think any amp will change that. Just because many people or reviewers say a speaker is great, the final abritrator on how good a particular speaker actually is, is ones own ears. Did OP listen carefully to these before purchasing them, and with what equipment?

An amp might help, from the Sterophile article you cited:

The Chorus 826W offers a higher-than-usual voltage sensitivity, my estimate coming in at 90.1dB(B)/2.83V/m on its tweeter axis, which is close to the specification. The speaker is also specified as having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, with a minimum magnitude of 2.9 ohms at 118Hz. Fig.1 shows that while the impedance does remain above 8 ohms for most of the bass and treble regions, it varies a lot, with a minimum of 2.6 ohms at 119Hz. There is also a current-hungry combination of 3.83 ohms magnitude and –53° electrical phase angle at 94Hz, a frequency where music can have high energy levels. This speaker should be used with a good amplifier rated at 4 ohms.

- Rich

 

[markw]

"pissing contests" are all fun and games until someone loses an eye...

Kinda serves one right for getting their face that close to the business end of the weapon

 

[markw]

An amp might help, from the Sterophile article you cited:
- Rich

You really think that'll give HT quality bass, eh?