Pioneer VSX-1019....pphhhhhhhhh!

[Lordoftherings]

Tomorrow is the future...

It's funny how the boat anchor analogy seems to come up again and again by people. But I think weight is somewhat of an indicator of what is inside of an AVR. I think a large transformer and large capacitrs are still used to provide decent current. Just look at the higher dollar Elite receivers now running the ICE amps. They still weigh 40 lbs plus. I wonder why???

Thank you very much for the provided pictures from your posts.

The most expensive part of a receiver is the transformer(s), then the heat sink(s), and the capacitors. Remember the Marantz SR-18EX and SR-14EX, with their two big caps, 56,000uF each capacitance? And the Denon AVR-5805ci with four big caps, 33,000uF each?

I don't know if you notice, but all the flagship receivers from all manufacturers, have double side walls that are quite heavy, internal braces, ticker steel tops, and some of them with thick aluminum face plates. (Some manufacturers use the face plate as a noise stopper.) Not mentioning the heavy weight of the transformer(s) and the heat sink(s).
Marantz use the bottom plate as a heat sink is some of their receivers.
Some transformers are over 40 pounds and more.

Some Cinepro amps have 3 kva transformer(s).
How much do you think one of these weights?

It is interesting too, noting the Pioneer Elite SC-05 and SC-07 are weighting just over 40 pounds each, with class D ICE amps. That's the same weight as the Denon AVR-4308ci with class A/B amps, same power rating as the SC-07.
Also, the Yamaha RX-Z7 with class A/B amps is 40.5 pounds, again same rating.
And the Marantz SR8002 (quite powerful receiver) is only 33 pounds.
And the Onkyo TX-NR906 again with class A/B amps and same rating, well 145 watts per channel (only 5 more), weights 54 pounds.

And some class D amps are very light (Rotel for example).

Yep, it is interesting to note the changements happening in the newer receivers compared to their previous models. But we live in the world of HDMI and room EQ, plus Ethernet and Internet, World radios (HD, XM, XMHD, Sirius, Internet...), USBs (MP3/WMA/WAV/Photo/music), FLAC, iPods, Gennum, Silicon Optix HQV Realta, HQV Reon, VRS ABT, Marvell Qdeo, PHD4, Faroudja DCDI, Network, Web browser, Wi-Fi networking, Netflix, BD-Live, AVCHD, GUI, standing wave reduction, phase correctors, time compensation, frequency anomalies, spatializers, distance adjustment, MPEG-4, XMB, transcoders, upscalers, downscalers, converters, downconverters, processors, compressors, parametric EQ, graphical EQ, Audyssey, DSD, LPCM, SACD, HDCD, YPAO, MCACC, SARS, MRAC, Net/PC/Mac audio via Ethernet, Web servers, DLNA, 12 V triggers, RS-232C, DSP, CEC, RIHD, xvYCC, Lip Sync, MIC, IR, Zones (M/2/3/4/5), 4:3, 16:9, 24fps, 30fps, 60fps, 48hz, 72hz, 96hz, 192hz, 248hz, 480hz, Dialog Lift, DRC, Bi-amp, Bridge, Macros, Scenes, Straight, Direct, Pure direct, 3D, HD3, Silent Cinema, Dolby headphone, Deinterlacing, Upconversion, MusicCast, Music server, Interface, and tons of other related features to the computer world and video high resolution with frame rate higher and more pixels.
Next is HDMI version 1.4, and Super High Resolution display of 4k.
And later on, Ultra High Resolution of 10k.

By the time Extreme High Resolution display of 20k hit the market, we'll be probably all dead. Or if not, certainly at 100k!

LOTR

 

[tom67]

Some sad facts:
1. We here on this forum probably respresent 5% or less of the market place.
2. The recession is causing price to drive design more than ever.
3.It looks like mfgs are chasing customers with new features, ie more silly HDMI updates vs wireless, which is where the R & D should be going...

 

[Hightower]

I'm considering getting the 819. Looks to be a rather feature laden AVR for a very reasonable price. I for one am not interested in pre-outs, but do care about features such as the iPod compatibility (I've got kids and iPods at home), HD audio codec support, 3 HMDI and all I need is 5.1.

For around 300 bucks give or take, I can't find anything to compare.

I had a VSX-912K which of course had no HDMI configuration. Couldn't take advantage of the HD codecs, but I wondered if I could ever hear or distinguish any difference between a receiver that could process the codecs and one that could not. Well, curiosity got the best of my, so I started to look for a new receiver (Pioneer). I consider myself an above average audio/video consumer, but not an audio/videophile. My set up is 5.1.

What got me going on all this was BD. Go back 15 years and I was into Laser disks. Blew away VCR tapes and then came along the DVD. All in search of the clearest picture possible, not to mention the neat audio offerings. Now BD enters the scene. Oh oh....need a 1080P TV. Asked my wife if she'd be willing to co-fund the TV. Certainly was the response. Got a Panasonic 37". Nice. Then the Panny BD player of course had to follow.

My son had just purchased a 1018 but that was out of my price range. I saw the preliminary specs & pics from Pioneer back in January and decided to wait till their release to begin the shopping process. That commenced 3 weeks ago. I narrowed it between the 819 & 919. The 819 won as the features offered on the 919 were nearly identical to the 819 and at about a $100.00 more. MSRP for the 819 is $299.00. I picked it up on line for $267.00 delivered.

So, what do I think of it after two weeks of usage? I still could revert back to my 912 (less HDMI) if not satisfied. Not going to happen. More than satisfied with the 819 for my needs. Your mileage may vary. I think it is an excellent value for the money.

 

[croseiv]

Some sad facts:
1. We here on this forum probably respresent 5% or less of the market place.
2. The recession is causing price to drive design more than ever.
3.It looks like mfgs are chasing customers with new features, ie more silly HDMI updates vs wireless, which is where the R & D should be going...

4. It looks like some receiver manufacturers are adding new features at the cost of overall performance. What good are the features if the overall SQ seems below par because the amp/transformer section is super wimpy?

 

[PENG]

And the Marantz SR8002 (quite powerful receiver) is only 33 pounds.
And the Onkyo TX-NR906 again with class A/B amps and same rating, well 145 watts per channel (only 5 more), weights 54 pounds.

Exactly, and I repeat, weight is an indicator for sure but also consider the various types of the transformers, heat sinks, enclosure/chassis, in terms of the material (steel, copper, aluminum) used and the design (class D vs A/B for amps, toroidal vs EI etc.) and the cooling system(fan vs larger heat sinks). There are other factors as well.

I also guess those lighter Yamaha XX5 AVRs are less powerful than the XX3 and XX1 but I would not like to see people draw conclusions as soon as they see the weight. At the same price point I would take the light weight Marantz, Arcam, Denon any day over the heavier NAD and HK, based on everything I read and my own listening experience. Actually HK seems to have put their models on diet too lately so they are more in line other Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha (I mean the RX-VXXXX) models now. Onkyo/Integra's top models on the other hand have gone the opposite way but I keep wondering if some of their added weight are due to their choice of materials for the chassis/enclosure and heat sinks (they do have to cool that nice and hot Reon) among others, and beside a large transformer that boosts their ACD rating (a good thing if you need it).

 

[Lordoftherings]

LOL. Peng, this is all interesting and more...

We can talk for a very long time about all the changes and all the weights and different type of class amps, and the newest features, but we'll never finish...

You're absolutely right about the various materials used and all that, and at the end, I agree with you, it's the Sound Quality and power delivery into 4-ohm loads that I'm into.
That's the requirement of my speakers that dictates that (all below 4ohms or so). So, I have to aim higher than the small receivers (light weight).
So I go for the heavy weight and for 4-ohm performance. But that's my speakers again. Because what I know so far, is the heavier the amp or receiver, the best chance there is to drive 4-ohm loads with less difficulty.
One big reason that I pick the 805 and 876.

But now, FilmMixer got me interested in the Pioneer SC-07 from the other thread. And though I read Gene's review, which care me a bit.
But again, FilmMixer said that the SC-07 sounds much better than the 905!
He said, no comparison!
I'm waiting for more info on that, it got me very intrigued now.
And that Pioneer Elite SC-07 is ony $899.99 right now, heck of a deal!

What to do, what to do, my head is spinning...


LOTR

 

[PENG]

LOL too! We don't agree on everything but I absolutely agree with you on this one that the power into 4 ohm (specifically highly reactive load too if you want to get technical) is a much better overall indicator for the amp's real power capability. And surely if every else being equal I'll take the heavy weight too. My 4BSST weighs 52 lbs and that's much lighter than a similarly rated EMO but if you look at the 4B you will see that almost the whole enclosure looks like a heat sink. The use of toroidal transformer also helps reduce weight because they typically offer a higher power output to weight ratio everything else being equal. May be the transformers have aluminum winding instead of copper but I will have to write to Bryston to find out if I get curious enough one day. As EE I always prefer the use of copper winding for industrial environment but for HT I have little concern about the use of aluminum as long as you can live with the resulting bigger box.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Bryston amps, way to go!

Canadian made too. Bravo!

And you're right again about toroidal weight and efficiency, windings construction and materials, and the enclosure used as a heat sink.
Everything has a definite function and the construction plus the position of all the different parts has it's efficiency. Quality of the power transistors and their matching characteristics, how many of them, where they are situated, the op-amps, the resistors figures and grades, the caps matching too, the inductors, the transients of the sum of all the parts, the quality control, the test measurements, the very generous 20 years warranty of all Bryston products, the...

Where should I send your prize?

 

[roshi]

But now, FilmMixer got me interested in the Pioneer SC-07 from the other thread. And though I read Gene's review, which care me a bit.
But again, FilmMixer said that the SC-07 sounds much better than the 905!
He said, no comparison!
I'm waiting for more info on that, it got me very intrigued now.
And that Pioneer Elite SC-07 is ony $899.99 right now, heck of a deal!
LOTR

Just an fyi, the sc-07 only does OSD-overlay with Pioneer displays. I was about to pull the trigger on the sc-05, then I found out about that. OSD was/is very important for me, since my receiver lives in the basement, and my tv is on the 1st floor and unfortunately isn't a nice Kuro.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Yep...

Just an fyi, the sc-07 only does OSD-overlay with Pioneer displays. I was about to pull the trigger on the sc-05, then I found out about that. OSD was/is very important for me, since my receiver lives in the basement, and my tv is on the 1st floor and unfortunately isn't a nice Kuro.

Ah, good to know, because I did not. Yeah, I know that these are nice to match with the nice Kuro plasmas. And I know that's what I sould have in the first place, a Kuro. But, I'm also considering that option (Kuro).
So the SC-07 will match nicely now.

Mmm... Decisions, decisions...

I just need more info on that 07 (sounds like James Bond, does it?).

LOTR

 

[rbw60]

Pioneer VSX 1019

I guess we all have a lot to learn like: This Pioneer is backordered everywhere you look, it is CNET best reciver of the year for sound quality and ease of use, I guess you get these kind of ratings with a "cheap amp"! I ordered mine last week because my last cheap Pioneer will not die and I need to upgrade because of my Sony Blue Ray and Toshiba cheap Plasma TV.

 

[Joeteck]

Just a little FYI, not sure if anyone else has noticed this with their pioneer, but my 816K has been getting softer and softer. I have to crank it up louder to be able to hear it. Maybe the amp is breaking down, and can't handle it.?? Electronics failing soon? I just started to notice this about 5 months ago...

 

[Lordoftherings]

I guess we all have a lot to learn like: This Pioneer is backordered everywhere you look, it is CNET best reciver of the year for sound quality and ease of use, I guess you get these kind of ratings with a "cheap amp"! I ordered mine last week because my last cheap Pioneer will not die and I need to upgrade because of my Sony Blue Ray and Toshiba cheap Plasma TV.

Hey, don't give up my friend, the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K will return very soon.
And don't call it a "cheap amp", because it is not. It's a very popular model, that is fully loaded with the latest and at a very attractive price too.
Good ratings come from all levels, budget, midrange, and high end models.

Hope you won't be waiting too long, exercise your patience, it's a great virtue.

* By the way, a big Welcome to the club.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[spokharkar]

Pioneer 1019ah

Hey, don't give up my friend, the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K will return very soon.
And don't call it a "cheap amp", because it is not. It's a very popular model, that is fully loaded with the latest and at a very attractive price too.
Good ratings come from all levels, budget, midrange, and high end models.

Hope you won't be waiting too long, exercise your patience, it's a great virtue.

* By the way, a big Welcome to the club.

Cheers,

Bob

Why this receiver is backordered for last two weeks? I called Pio and they said we can not give any info about why it's not in the market. Is there anything wrong or any glitch with this receiver? I heard it's very light in weight and some compatible issue with PSP? But Cnet has giver top rating so I am kind of interested in buying this one rather than Onkyo 607.

Suhas

 

[Lordoftherings]

Why this receiver is backordered for last two weeks? I called Pio and they said we can not give any info about why it's not in the market. Is there anything wrong or any glitch with this receiver? I heard it's very light in weight and some compatible issue with PSP? But Cnet has giver top rating so I am kind of interested in buying this one rather than Onkyo 607.

Suhas

Hi Suhas, and a big Welcome to Audioholics Forums.

The Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K is the latest Pioneer receiver model. It's been released only a few months back.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that receiver, and no glitch either.
Well, it might have some problems with the PS3.
I see that you did your research already.
* The Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K weights 19 pounds and 3 ounces (19.2 lbs).
Here: @ http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/AV-Receivers/PioneerReceivers/ci.VSX-1019AH-K.Kuro?tab=B

Are you from the United States of America?
Because, if you are, it should be widely available.
Because it is availavle at Best Buy and also at J&R. It sells for $399.
Here: @ http://www.jr.com/pioneer/pe/PIO_VSX1019AHK/

* Me, personally, I would pick the Onkyo TX-SR607 in a heart beat.
I really believe, with a very strong conviction, that the 607, is a better choice.
In fact, I must say it's almost, if not, a fact.
But that's just me.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[spokharkar]

Pioneer 1019

Thank you Bob.

Yes! I live in USA. So far most of the online sites Pioneer 1019 is back ordered and also I don't find anyone selling for $399. If you know any online site or local shops let me know.

The reason I am interested in buying Pioneer 1019 is because of video up conversion to 1080 which I believe is not present in Onkyo 607 and also ipod connectivity. And also Cnet rated as best receiver in this price range.

 

[rnatalli]

Between the Pio 1019 and Onkyo 607, I'd go with the Onkyo. Its amp section is better and Audyssey is generally better than MCACC. Another option in this price range is the HK 254 which is a nice receiver so long as you're running firmware 97.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Thank you Bob.

Yes! I live in USA. So far most of the online sites Pioneer 1019 is back ordered and also I don't find anyone selling for $399. If you know any online site or local shops let me know.

The reason I am interested in buying Pioneer 1019 is because of video up conversion to 1080 which I believe is not present in Onkyo 607 and also ipod connectivity. And also Cnet rated as best receiver in this price range.

All right, cool Suhas. Now, I know for sure that you live South of the border.

I just gave you the link from J&R, and trust me, The Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K is selling for $399. I wouldn't say that, if it was not true.
I do extensive research before and after each and everyone of my posts.
I don't guess things, or assume, or presume; I simply state the FACTS.

Speaking about fact, the Onkyo TX-SR607 is the one you should get.
At his current price, you'll be more than please. And you'll thank me later to not have make the mistake of getting the hard to get Pioneer. Also, as you are well aware, the 1019 will give troubles with your PS3. I know, I read about it from various audio forums. Like I just said, I do a lot of research before I commit.
I just simply cannot afford to be wrong. It's bad for me, it's bad for you, and it's bad for everyone else too.
Also, C-net is one of the most awful place for true valuable reviews, that you just cannot based your purchase on. Take it from a guy that knows.

If you want a true valuable review, don't look any further than this:
@ http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/onkyo_tx-sr607_av_receiver/

And for the place to buy it, look no further than right here:
@ http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR607BLK/Onkyo/TX-SR607-7.2-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

Bob

P.S. I'm sure of this, or I wouldn't mention it in first place. Plus, it's only $369.99

 

[TjMV3]

you are perceptive and Yamaha just did the same thing where up to $600, their units weigh 19 lbs....I would assume if there were true advances allowing the weight loss while maintaining the quality, they would have extolled the virtues of the new designs...they did not....I think the goal is to scare up the entry level price for those wanting to go from mediocracy to quality from about $300 to $700. That niche is small but significant, perhaps 15%. Then the other 85% who could care less about specs will be paying 3-$600 for weak amps and could care less....

You think it's a coincidence that two different manufactors put out two Receivers, in a similar price bracket, they both trimmed features and component weight down to the same 19 lbs?

I don't.

I suspect that Pioneer and Yamaha are not the only companies OEMing cheap Receivers and slapping their brandname/trademarks on the faceplates.

At these prcie points, I'd bet most of them are cheap OEM pieces.

 

[tdepas]

Anyone have a link to where the 1019 has problems with the PS3? I just picked mineup this weekend but if it doesn't work well with a PS3 then I might have to look for another option.