Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[cpp]

We don't find it difficult to differentiate at all; it's quite easy if you spend a reasonable amount of time with each speaker, especially when you use tracks you're very familiar with. And yes, we remove the speakers from the room, or in the case of speaker shootouts or whatever we just get them away from the front wall where the pair being auditioned sits.

Sounds like a whole lot of trouble and a waste of valuable listening time. Why not just cover the eyes of the person(s) doing the listening before they enter the room and they won't have a clue which speaker their listening to. You can switch speakers, amps and sources at will. The blind see nothing. People that see already have made a mental assumption based on sight which in turn relates to the naming of the product. When I worked at Bell Labs we did a few interesting test on sight vs sound and sight being in force always compounded one's thinking.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...in the case of speaker shootouts we just get them away from the front wall where the pair being auditioned sits. You never want to have speakers sitting all next to each other...

But it's okay if they sit behind each other?

I could easily pull each pair of speakers out just like in a shootout. Since 3ft from the front wall is not enough, 4ft or 5ft is attainable. This is what I do with the Orion. That is why they are on the sides. They are light and very easily moved. Thus I pull them out so that they are 5ft from the front wall when I listen.

 

[Nuance AH]

. No, it is not alright to just put them next to each other. I meant you need to pull them off the front wall entirely and put them somewhere else. The other speakers should be nowhere near the pair of speakers that are being listened to, else they will interfere with the sound. That is a speaker auditioning 101. In regards to doing a blind listening session, we are going to have 25 people in attendance and 6 to 7 pairs of speakers so there isn't going to be enough time for that, nor is it an easy task. I've been involved and even helped run at least 1 blind speaker shoot out, and it was more trouble than it is worth. Most of the attendees will have never heard any of the brands that will be at the get together so we are not worried about bias.

 

[Nuance AH]

Pulling the speakers out will help, but it will not be as effective as having the pair that you are listening to be the only speakers on the front wall.

 

[cschang]

I agree the best way to listen to the speakers individually is clearing the room of the other speakers in the comparison, and place the speakers in the same spots for listening. I don't think this is practical when you don't have long periods for listening, and you are trying to compare several speakers.

There is also A LOT to be said for instant switching, and side by side comparisons. It makes comparing qualities A LOT easier. For shorter periods, you may not be able to discern what you like better, but you will be able to call out differences.

One thing that is often overlooked is single speakers side by side with a mono signal (or the same signal into each speaker) with instant switching. While this will not give you any imaging or soundstage comparisons, it makes listening to different tonal qualities very easy, much easier that when in stereo mode.

 

[cpp]

If you can see them you have already made your mind up.. that's the way the mind works, looks and cost in some peoples minds equals "it must be the best". Blindfold and do it right.

 

[cschang]

If you can see them you have already made your mind up.. that's the way the mind works, looks and cost in some peoples minds equals "it must be the best". Blindfold and do it right.

Agreed...but not just looks and costs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You guys are really bad influences, especially GranteedEV.

I could not bare to have my Denon AVR-5308CI power those precious KEF 201/2.

So I switched the AT3005 back to 201/2.

Which means the Phil3 would go back to Denon 3310.

But then I could not bare that.

So I just bought the ATI AT2004. All your faults.

All of it!

 

[Nuance AH]

If you can see them you have already made your mind up.. that's the way the mind works, looks and cost in some peoples minds equals "it must be the best". Blindfold and do it right.

Thanks for the recommendations, but we'll pass on the blindfold.

 

[cschang]

Thanks for the recommendations, but we'll pass on the blindfold.

A good blind test would take forever!

 

[Nuance AH]

A good blind test would take forever!

Exactly. If we were to do a blind test we' do it right, and that isn't going to fall within our time table for 25 guys and a possible 7 speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So it's not even going to be single-blinded, which means one person (Dennis) does the speakers switching and the rest gets to do the test?

How fair is that going to be?

Double-blinded would take forever. It would be impractical. Understandable.

But you have to do at least a single-blinded test, like Audioholics.

Unless the point is to just get together, have some fun, and listen to some great speakers play.

 

[Nuance AH]

So it's not even going to be single-blinded, which means one person (Dennis) does the speakers switching and the rest gets to do the test?

How fair is that going to be?

Double-blinded would take forever. It would be impractical. Understandable.

But you have to do at least a single-blinded test, like Audioholics.

Says the guy with four speakers crammed into a small room, all sitting next to each other; this being the manner he listens to them in.

Seriously, though, even single blinded is a pain in the butt. We want this to be fun, engaging, entertaining and not just about audio (interaction with actual people). Introducing any kind of DBT or single blinded scenario is stressful and instantly takes a few people out of the listening scenario, which we don't want to do. Everyone needs to get listening time. If you have overseen/run a speaker GTG you know what I am talking about. We're no Audioholics, nor are we trying to be. We want to enjoy ourselves and help those audition speakers they normally could not; then they can form their own opinions and make an informed decision.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Says the guy with four speakers crammed into a small room, all sitting next to each other; this being the manner he listens to them in.

Seriously, though, even single blinded is a pain in the butt. We want this to be fun, engaging, entertaining and not just about audio (interaction with actual people). Introducing any kind of DBT or single blinded scenario is stressful and instantly takes a few people out of the listening scenario, which we don't want to do. Everyone needs to get listening time. If you have overseen/run a speaker GTG you know what I am talking about. We're no Audioholics, nor are we trying to be. We want to enjoy ourselves and help those audition speakers they normally could not; then they can form their own opinions and make an informed decision.

That's why I'm not the guy who claims that a certain speakers sound better than all the rest even though I've never listened to them in the same treated room in my life.

I think we already know which speakers you will pick as the best......months ago.

I'm just the guy who collects great sounding speakers. And ATI amps. And Denon. I love the way they look. I love the way they sound.

And I will never claim that one speaker sounds the best, especially when I own that brand of speakers and everyone thinks I'm a 100% biased fanboy.

Anyway, joking aside, the point of this GTG is to just have fun and allow guys to audition some speakers. It is not to conclude which speakers sound better and which one sounds best.

We already know which one sounds the best.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

So it's not even going to be single-blinded, which means one person (Dennis) does the speakers switching and the rest gets to do the test?

How fair is that going to be?

Double-blinded would take forever. It would be impractical. Understandable.

But you have to do at least a single-blinded test, like Audioholics.

Unless the point is to just get together, have some fun, and listen to some great speakers play.

Just for the record, Dennis won't be anywhere near this GTG--He'll be playing in a tango orchestra at a gig in Falls Church, VA. Obviously, blind tests are better, and obviously they're a pain in the posterior. And obviously listening to one pair of speakers standing alone in a listening room is better than listening with them all lined up next to each other if you're not going to do any quick switching among the speakers. But I do the latter all the time because I think instantaneous or really fast (volume-compenstated) comparisons are essential to reliable comparisons. That's how I check my own designs, and I would feel seriously disadvantaged if I didn't have the ability to do so. That's not to say that a lot of useful information and good times can't be generated by the kind of GTG Nuance and friends are conducting. Perfection usually isn't practical, and certainly not worth the cost.

 

[cpp]

So how many speakers do you has to "audition" ?

 

[adwilk]

While you're moving, make a side trip to the Philharmonic Audio R&D Labs in Bethesda, MD, just outside of Washington, DC. In one afternoon, you'll be able to hear the Phils and a Salk SoundScape 10, along with who knows what else. Dennis will talk you into getting Phil 2s and talk you out of the Orions .

Well, it would be a few hours out of the way but I just might look into this. I'm headed from the Charleston, SC area back to Missouri. I'll only have some audio gear and all my golf equipment in the car with me so this could be feasible.

Does this require an appointment, I assume? What happens if I NEEEEEED to get speakers while I'm there?

 

[Nuance AH]

Good post, Dennis. A sweet preamp like Dennis has where you can instantly switch would be awesome, and if we had such we'd re-think our listening approach for the GTG. I forgot to mention Dennis can't make it now; just far too expensive unfortunately (stupid airlines). He's still sending his speakers, though, which we're all very happy about.

That's why I'm not the guy who claims that a certain speakers sound better than all the rest even though I've never listened to them in the same treated room in my life.

That's the thing; you don't need them in the same room to know which is best, not if they are well designed. Weren't you just preaching (along with grant) that a great speaker will sound great in most rooms (of which I agree with)? So which is it buddy?

I wasn't ripping on you, by the way; just encouraging you to do what everyone's been wanting you to do: listen to each one at time without other speakers around. You'd be surprised how good your acoustic memory is when you're very familiar with the audition material and you put in some real listening time with each speaker (not just an hour or two: serious up close and personal time). Instantly switching is awesome, but even you can't do it fast enough to be useful, unless I am missing something. Dennis' preamp is something we should all own!

By the way, I'm not saying we're going to spend a ton of time with each speaker at the GTG; there just isn't time for such audition sessions. What I am asking ADTG to do is not what we're going to do at the GTG. Now if I had all of his speakers in my house, I'd listen to each for a week without any other speakers in the room using reference tracks I'm very familiar with. When you spend a lot of quality time with a speaker the differences become very apparent, as does which you prefer the most. Instant switching is great at picking out immediate differences, though; it's just something we cannot all do (in case you couldn't tell I am jealous of Dennis' preamp).

I think we already know which speakers you will pick as the best......months ago.



We already know which one sounds the best

I've heard all the speakers already except the Phil's, so this event isn't for me; I'm not looking to see which sounds best. *But if I had to guess, I'd say it'll be the Phil 2's and the SoundScapes. *We'll be waiting until the "noob" attendees post their impressions before ours, though, as not to influence anyone's decision...not that it would happen...

So how many speakers do you has to "audition" ?

Who?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...back to Missouri...

That is next Oklahoma.

One of those Tuesdays, man.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...You'd be surprised how good your acoustic memory is...

My acoustic memory probably sucks.

I think it's pretty good, but is it really?

But really, no way in hell I'm moving my 190lbs x 2 Salon2, 75lbs x 2 Orion, 85lbs x 2 Phil3, or 30lbs x 2 KEF 201/2 out of my room.

Only thing I'm moving is my body to grab a bottle of cheap $15 wine..