Paradigm Signature S8's

[codexp3]

I guess it all comes down to subjectivity. I am very surprised anyone can find a major flaw with the S8v2s. They may not be everyone’s favorite, but it’s a real reach to consider them anything sort of excellent. I’m starting to think Chris caught a Paradigm engineer peeing on his front porch. That would explain why he’s so critical…

 

[TheFactor]

I guess it all comes down to subjectivity. I am very surprised anyone can find a major flaw with the S8v2s. They may not be everyone’s favorite, but it’s a real reach to consider them anything sort of excellent. I’m starting to think Chris caught a Paradigm engineer peeing on his front porch. That would explain why he’s so critical…

Now Thats funny

 

[TheFactor]

From Paradigm:

It’s the attention to (or more correctly, the obsession with) details that separates the very best high-end speaker designs from the rest. Take, as an example, our IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT butyl-rubber driver fastening system. Developed in response to the nemesis of all speaker designers – cabinet resonances and vibrations – our Isolation Mounting System (IMS) is simply another step on the road to audio perfection. Critically placed isolation inserts and gaskets actually decouple drivers from the speaker enclosure itself. This “baffleless” technology reduces driver/enclosure interactions and their associated resonances to inaudible levels. In Signature speakers the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated.

That the same type of mounting system in my Studios and no vibrations here either although im only running the 60's but my cc690 center is smooth as silk to and thats why I found it funny to hear that the S8 had Resonance issues on this thread when there in A different league than my Studios. Well its nice to hear the positive side now ...Paradigms FTW

 

[codexp3]

That the same type of mounting system in my Studios and no vibrations here either although im only running the 60's but my cc690 center is smooth as silk to and thats why I found it funny to hear that the S8 had Resonance issues on this thread when there in A different league than my Studios. Well its nice to hear the positive side now ...Paradigms FTW

The Studios are no slouch! I really thought price to performance they were a better value than the Signatures. I paid the premium simply because I love the tweeters in the Signature v2 line. I feel the Studios represent one of the best values in home audio right along with the Dynaudio focus line.

 

[WmAx]

From Paradigm:

It’s the attention to (or more correctly, the obsession with) details that separates the very best high-end speaker designs from the rest. Take, as an example, our IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT butyl-rubber driver fastening system. Developed in response to the nemesis of all speaker designers – cabinet resonances and vibrations – our Isolation Mounting System (IMS) is simply another step on the road to audio perfection. Critically placed isolation inserts and gaskets actually decouple drivers from the speaker enclosure itself. This “baffleless” technology reduces driver/enclosure interactions and their associated resonances to inaudible levels. In Signature speakers the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated.

The Studio 100 is also specified as using this decoupling system for the drivers. This last line, where the ad copy says.... "....the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated", does not appear to have much in the way evidence supporting it by looking at other speakers that use this same system that have been measured.

The Studio 100 cabinet is anything but low in measured resonance amplitude. The IMS mounting system seems to have done very little to help in this case example.

Stereophile Studio 100 V3 accelerometer measurement: http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/P100fig2.jpg

Ad copy simply does not mean much of anything it seems.

Of course, this is the Studio 100, not the S8. Maybe the S8 has relatively low resonance cabinets, but it seems unlikely as I have explained prior in this thread.

-Chris

 

[TheFactor]

The Studios are no slouch! I really thought price to performance they were a better value than the Signatures. I paid the premium simply because I love the tweeters in the Signature v2 line. I feel the Studios represent one of the best values in home audio right along with the Dynaudio focus line.

Nice !!! Thanks Im really happy with my Studios and enjoy them more everyday but the Signature v2 line is simply beautiful and bring the highs to a totaly different level I think as you say , the tweeters really are phenomenal . I know when im watching a movie with my Studios and a phone rings or someones doing dishes it sounds like its in my house and I catch myself looking towards the kitchen or looking to see if my phone lit up lol

 

[Davemcc]

So in other words you are in the process of selling those dynaudio's and picking up some B&W's? Since, according to him, the dynaudio's are surely inferior at the same price point.

Surely you are referring to Chris' reference to the Focus 220 floorstanders. I'm quite sure my Focus 140 bookshelf speakers do not share the resonance characteristics of the floorstanding model.

 

[no. 5]

...I found it funny to hear that the S8 had Resonance issues on this thread when there in A different league than my Studios.

The thing to remember about these resonance "issues" is who brought it up. That is, a person who feels that any resonance is too much, and in my opinion, having a speaker with no audible resonance is a worthy objective, but the fact is, it is an attribute that very few commercial speakers have.

But the thing is, "flawed" speakers still sound very good; in the research of Floyd Toole that WmAx brought up, the loudspeakers that scored highly, or won comparisons still had flaws. Revel Salon2's have some cabinet resonance, and they won double blind listening comparisons. Think about that; commercial speakers that have resonant cabinets can sound monumentally better than other commercial speakers that also have resonant cabinets. Why must the S8 be all that different?

For that matter, comments about how well the cabinet is constructed, or the extent of resonance are conjecture, as absolutely zero information has been provided as to construction or measured behavior of the S8's cabinet.

 

[syd123]

Chris,

Unless I'm mistaken, Paradigm's claim: "....the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated" is made only with respect to the Signatures.

That said, I even question your claim about the 100's being "anything but low in measured resonance"

Note John Atkinson's (who conducts these measurements) comments:

I haven't said anything about coloration. That's because, despite the variety of program material I auditioned on the Studio/100s, I was never made aware of any persistent problem in this area. This is one neutral speaker.

With respect to their cabinets, Paradigm states:

Enclosures use acoustically inert high-density hardboard and strategically located radial braces as needed to limit unwanted resonances, increase enclosure stiffness and prevent “ballooning” effects.

Acoustical damping material eliminates internal standing waves. Low-diffraction grills minimize interference from enclosure edges. High-velocity, low-noise ports allow maximum bass efficiency with minimum turbulence distortion.

You do realize that these are a full-range speaker that retail for a modest $2300/pair? Given this, I find their measured and, more importantly, observed performance to be quite impressive. I spent quite a bit of time listening to these speakers before electing to go up to the Signatures. ..The 100's are very well built, very substantial, and - I think - compare quite favorably with other speakers in their price range.

 

[TheFactor]

The thing to remember about these resonance "issues" is who brought it up. That is, a person who feels that any resonance is too much, and in my opinion, having a speaker with no audible resonance is a worthy objective, but the fact is, it is an attribute that very few commercial speakers have.

But the thing is, "flawed" speakers still sound very good; in the research of Floyd Toole that WmAx brought up, the loudspeakers that scored highly, or won comparisons still had flaws. Revel Salon2's have some cabinet resonance, and they won double blind listening comparisons. Think about that; commercial speakers that have resonant cabinets can sound monumentally better than other commercial speakers that also have resonant cabinets. Why must the S8 be all that different?

For that matter, comments about how well the cabinet is constructed, or the extent of resonance are conjecture, as absolutely zero information has been provided as to construction or measured behavior of the S8's cabinet.

Thats a pretty good perspective on both sides of the fence I must say and may I add it must be very hard to satisfy WmAx in the audio world because he does seem to be very critical of many if not almost all commercial manufactures excluding DIY Projects IT "APPEARS" . I dont mean that in a sarcastic manor either I really dont, it actually must be kind of sad to be that knowledgeable and well versed in the audio world about speakers, amps, subs ect. to not be able to enjoy something for what it is and the good things it has to offer instead of only finding the negative things if indeed there are, I mean it must be really hard for him to enjoy any type of HT equipment when your that critical . Just my 2cents

 

[syd123]

The thing to remember about these resonance "issues" is who brought it up. That is, a person who feels that any resonance is too much, and in my opinion, having a speaker with no audible resonance is a worthy objective, but the fact is, it is an attribute that very few commercial speakers have.

But the thing is, "flawed" speakers still sound very good; in the research of Floyd Toole that WmAx brought up, the loudspeakers that scored highly, or won comparisons still had flaws. Revel Salon2's have some cabinet resonance, and they won double blind listening comparisons. Think about that; commercial speakers that have resonant cabinets can sound monumentally better than other commercial speakers that also have resonant cabinets. Why must the S8 be all that different?

For that matter, comments about how well the cabinet is constructed, or the extent of resonance are conjecture, as absolutely zero information has been provided as to construction or measured behavior of the S8's cabinet.

I think you've done a good job of summarizing this thread. ..And your comments about how speakers that measure imperfectly may nontheless sound terrific are spot on.

As an FYI, it was acknowledged early on that none of the reviews (all glowing) provided data on cabinet resonances. In a couple of the reviews the cabinets were highly praised as "inert" but, admittedly, no accelerometer measurements on the cabinets were provided (as far as I know only Stereophile does this and these speakers were never reviewed by Stereophile. ..Though they did receive a stellar review in their sister A/V mag).

Chris siezed upon the lack of cabinet measurements and told the OP it would be a "definite downgrade to go from B&W 802's to the S8's" because of cabinet issues. He was unequivocal. He made this remarkable statement even as he admitted that he personally had never heard them, never measured them, nor had read anywhere that their cabinets had measureable or audible resonances. In fact, I don't think he mentioned having ever personally seen them.

I mentioned the numerous positive reviews where NOT ONE reviewer noted resonances (and where the speakers measured remarkably flat) only to say, "c'mon, how can you KNOW FOR CERTAIN these speakers have problems with resonances when NONE of these reviewers observed ANY cabinet issues?"

Later, Paradigm's claims (however unsupported by incontravertible evidence) for their decoupling system (claimed to reduce reduce resonances to inaudible levels); mention of their use of double-blind testing & thorough analysis, in-house designed & manufactured drivers, Canada's NRC's and their own anechoic chamber, etc. etc.. were all served up as information to be considered and weighed in comparison with Chris's equally unsupported claims.

 

[Alex2507]

Well the search function came through for me, I was merely guessing. Just do an advanced search and with his username, type in different speaker manufacturer's, and you'll see outside of B&W, Behringer & Harman/Infinity/Toole they all suck. Based on never hearing them but reading some research of course.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323973&highlight=dynaudio#post323973

I been stalking Chris for some time now but thanks for the tip on the advanced stalk function.

You seem to have an ax to grind. Good luck with that.

 

[Matt34]

I think we just witnessed the Paradigm fanboies trumping the Def Tech fanboies as the most tenacious defenders of the brand.