Paper, Kevlar, or Poly Plas Cones...?

S

SonomaComa

Enthusiast
I have been looking for some Bookshelf Speakers. I was checking out the JBL Website and was looking at the Studio L830 (3-way) and Studio L820 (4-way) Speakers, the List price is $650.95. Then I saw the Big Brother Floor-Standing Speakers, the Studio L880 & L890 (4-way). The smaller one is $50.00 less and the bigger one is $50.00 more than the Book Shelf speakers! The Studio L880 has the same little 6" woofers as the Book Shelf speakers, it just has 2 of them per speaker along with a 4" Mid, a 1"Titanium tweeter and a 3/4" Mylar tweeter.
Studio L880 | 4-way, dual 6†floorstanding speaker | JBL US

One thing I was wondering is that they all have PolyPlas Cones for the Mids and Woofers. How do they effect the sound compared to Kevlar or Paper cones? Would they have to be totally blasted real loud to sound Ok and get the full spectrum of sound frequencies? I have heard some paper cone speakers and they sounded really good despite of all the other composite material hype. Some manufacturers use Kevlar but JBL uses PolyPlas. The speakers will be used for a some what smaller room, a bed room, and probably won't be cranked up real loud very often. They will be used mostly for music-90% and TV sound once in a while.
Even this little 3-way, 5 1/4 looks good but a floor speaker is only 50 bucks more!
Studio L810 | 3-way, 5-1/4†wall or bookshelf speaker | JBL US

So I was wondering what is the difference between Paper, PolyPlas, and Kevlar Cones..??
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Cone material is really sort of a non-issue. The different materials do sound different, but ultimately it is the implementation of them as a speaker that makes the difference. I am not a fan of metal drivers, but a friend brought over one of his project speakers and it uses an aluminum tweeter and an aluminum midbass and it sounds as clear as anything I've heard with vocals. I wouldn't get hung up on the material so much as whether or not you like how the speaker sounds.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
As the man said:

I wouldn't get hung up on the material so much as whether or not you like how the speaker sounds.
That's like judging a woman by her hair color.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The materialization is more important than the materials. :D

The sum is more important than the individual parts. :D

There is no guarantee that $4,000 Diamond tweeters will sound better than $40 aluminum tweeters.
 
Philip Bamberg

Philip Bamberg

Audioholics Approved Vendor
Cone material is really sort of a non-issue. The different materials do sound different, but ultimately it is the implementation of them as a speaker that makes the difference. I am not a fan of metal drivers, but a friend brought over one of his project speakers and it uses an aluminum tweeter and an aluminum midbass and it sounds as clear as anything I've heard with vocals. I wouldn't get hung up on the material so much as whether or not you like how the speaker sounds.
+1

First of all, speaker driver unit manufacturers easily get more models by simply putting different cones on the same motor/basket/soft-parts combination. Then (laughably) people get obsessed over the sound and appearance of the cone, when in fact the common motor is what dominates the sound quality. Yes, the cones sound a little different, and implementation of the crossover will (should) also differ.

Important fact: All cones have high-frequency breakup modes in the treble band. These modes sound harsh/distorted. The modes can be subdued with greater or lesser success with the crossover topology.

PAPER
The problem I have with paper cones is that they vary from batch to batch. Weight, thickness, stiffness, etc. variations lead to a skewing of the bass alignment, sensitivity (= mismatch to the tweeter's loudness), and breakup modes (= a detuned crossover). Go out to listen to any local Friday night pub band, and you can quickly identify the scratchy sound of paper cone breakup from the PA style speakers.

POLYPROPYLENE
Polypropylene cones have been criticized for sounding a bit too smooth - i.e., dull, lifeless, boring, veiled, etc. However, if this cone is designed to have additional stiffness (e.g. on a large voice coil such as Morel, Dynaudio, Skaaning brands), then you regain detail, and retain its positive smooth qualities. IOW, this cone is a great choice if you listen to recordings that are not so stellar sound quality (e.g. harsh). (Note that what may sound boring initially can also be an indication of a low-distortion speaker!)

METAL
Metal cones are known for their transparency and detail. Criticism of a hard/harsh treble is warranted, but only when the crossover is not well designed (such as when outsourced to an inexperienced person/company). Otherwise, metal cones are very linear. IOW, they measure and sound very flat in the mass-loaded region (= midrange). So you get both transparency and flat/neutral response. (Note that too many listeners misinterpret distortion as detail, because harmonic distortion manifests at ever higher frequencies. So they misinterpret the metal cone woofer ringing as detail coming from the tweeter.)

OTHER
There are other materials that attempt to find a nice balance among the best qualities of the basic three. Kevlar, fiberglass, natural fibers, etc. Note that these will not be found in budget speakers.

All the above assumes also that the baffle step (naturally rising output with increasing frequency) has been properly tilted flat. Again, because the metal cone tends to rise "straightest" it has the potential to sound the most neutral. (I emphasize again that woofer breakup modes in the treble must be properly dealt with by an experienced designer.)

FREE ADVICE
My general advice is that your prudent choice for budget speakers is the polypropylene cone woofer. There is not sufficient profit margin for the manufacturer to add the necessary extra parts required by the metal cone woofer, nor will they be concerned about batch-to-batch variation of the paper cone woofer.

Another favorite tip of mine is to gently suggest listeners stop focusing on the tweeter and treble band, and instead pay more attention to the midrange for qualities like clarity, dynamics, focus, and neutrality. IMO it is much easier to get respectable treble performance from the tweeter than it is from the midbass woofer. Also, if it is too easy to listen to a speaker's treble and midrange bands, then the crossover has not been designed in such a way to get them to blend perfectly.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I like big soft cones.
:eek: especially when they are silky smooth
 
S

SonomaComa

Enthusiast
Wow, thanks Philip. You are a wealth of knowledge. I wasn't taking any of the other stuff into consideration when I was wondering about the cone material. There are so many different variables that come into play.
 
Philip Bamberg

Philip Bamberg

Audioholics Approved Vendor
You're welcome.

As is so often the case, it is what is not visible (motor behind the cone, or crossover quality inside the box) that makes a big difference. Big name budget speakers often have effort/cost put into the exterior looks in exchange for the design/build quality inside. OTOH, high quality design/build quality inside the speaker isn't justified by the customer unless the exterior look/finish quality is also high. So that is a double-whammy to cost/price for those speakers. I think this is one reason for the popularity of DIY.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
As is so often the case, it is what is not visible (motor behind the cone, or crossover quality inside the box) that makes a big difference. Big name budget speakers often have effort/cost put into the exterior looks in exchange for the design/build quality inside. OTOH, high quality design/build quality inside the speaker isn't justified by the customer unless the exterior look/finish quality is also high. So that is a double-whammy to cost/price for those speakers. I think this is one reason for the popularity of DIY.
Agreed, and I think this is also why companies like yours, and various other small speaker companies, are able to compete in a crowded marketplace. I suppose an economist might say that you are using personal passion to reduce the return on capital investment that you'll accept, while the "big names" have minimum returns that are more likely driven by their investors. For consumers willing to take a chance on ordering a speaker or subwoofer they usually can't see or hear until they've paid for it, the bang for the buck win can be huge. I have to admit that in my own case, when it came down to making a buying decision, I went with what I could see and hear, rather than taking a chance, and there's no question I paid for reducing uncertainty.
 
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Philip Bamberg

Philip Bamberg

Audioholics Approved Vendor
Your points are valid. While the biggest companies do have big money behind them and for which they must answer to, some medium size companies are privately owned. But even those are big enough to require margins to pay for big buildings, large staff, sweeping marketing campaigns, et al.

I will be the first to admit that fewer and fewer speakers sound truly bad anymore. Computerized methods and ever-increasing knowledge base leaves no one with any excuses to not make at least decent sound. Unfortunately there seems to be no end to hype and snake oil.

Still, the sum is greater than the parts, and I personally believe I have reached a certain "zen" to the art and science of speaker development. After 20 years I have my disappointments, but somehow have not become jaded.

When the new Series 3 monitors are ready, they will be available for risk-free in-home audition. I also believe that multiple unbiased reviews reduce the risk of ordering from the little guys.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
When the new Series 3 monitors are ready, they will be available for risk-free in-home audition. I also believe that multiple unbiased reviews reduce the risk of ordering from the little guys.
For small, easily shipped products, I agree that home auditioning does reduce the risk substantially. Unfortunately, for large floorstanding speakers and subwoofers the inconvenience and effort level is so high that buying and possibly returning them is daunting, at least for many of us. When I was shopping for subwoofers I almost ordered internet direct, but 18" subs weigh enough you don't take returning them lightly. (Sorry for the lame pun.)

One service internet direct companies can and should offer that is very useful is a database of current owners willing to demo the products in their homes. When I was shopping for main speakers I was very interested in Linkwitz Orions, and I was able to find an owner willing to demo them for me. I didn't end up with the Orions, but they were high on my list, and they would not have been on the finalist tally at all if not for the ability to hear them and see them.

As for reviews, they sometimes get me interested in a product, but except for the measurements I can't use them for buying decisions on speakers. One person's great imaging may not be another's, for example. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I've got to listen under reasonably good conditions before I buy products worth thousands of dollars.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
A list of owners willing to audition is almost a must for an ID company, IMHO, but you can't control where people are buying your products from. So that only gets you so far.

Depending on the company, I think that demoing a pair of bookshelves is a perfectly resonable way to determine if the towers are worth looking at. If the bookshelves and towers are voiced very similarly, then you can at least have an idea of what to expect from the towers, minus bass response and possibly a few other things here and there. Obviously that's not a perfect way of doing things, and hearing the speakers you're interested in is definitely a first choice, but a bookshelf demo is better than nothing. I expect Mr. Bambergs bookshelves would sound excellent, and more similar than different to his towers (minus bass response), at least giving someone a reasonable idea of what to expect.

Then again, thousands of dollars ain't exactly peanuts and only an indivudal can decided how much risk they're willing to take to get the reward they're looking for. I know I haven't regretted my sight unseen/heard buy of the Phil 3's. YMMV.


For small, easily shipped products, I agree that home auditioning does reduce the risk substantially. Unfortunately, for large floorstanding speakers and subwoofers the inconvenience and effort level is so high that buying and possibly returning them is daunting, at least for many of us. When I was shopping for subwoofers I almost ordered internet direct, but 18" subs weigh enough you don't take returning them lightly. (Sorry for the lame pun.)

One service internet direct companies can and should offer that is very useful is a database of current owners willing to demo the products in their homes. When I was shopping for main speakers I was very interested in Linkwitz Orions, and I was able to find an owner willing to demo them for me. I didn't end up with the Orions, but they were high on my list, and they would not have been on the finalist tally at all if not for the ability to hear them and see them.

As for reviews, they sometimes get me interested in a product, but except for the measurements I can't use them for buying decisions on speakers. One person's great imaging may not be another's, for example. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I've got to listen under reasonably good conditions before I buy products worth thousands of dollars.
 
Philip Bamberg

Philip Bamberg

Audioholics Approved Vendor
For small, easily shipped products, I agree that home auditioning does reduce the risk substantially. Unfortunately, for large floorstanding speakers and subwoofers the inconvenience and effort level is so high that buying and possibly returning them is daunting, at least for many of us.
+1.

One service internet direct companies can and should offer that is very useful is a database of current owners willing to demo the products in their homes.
+1. However this supports the more established companies, and penalizes the upstarts.

As for reviews, they sometimes get me interested in a product, but except for the measurements I can't use them for buying decisions on speakers. One person's great imaging may not be another's, for example. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I've got to listen under reasonably good conditions before I buy products worth thousands of dollars.
+1. Reviews these days are often "arranged" to prevent (or not include) negative impressions. This is OK if there are circumstances that cause a degradation of the gear's true performance. And as I said, there is no excuse for bad sound anymore. Still, there are SO many speaker companies now, and the positive/negative performance areas have become more nuanced.

Depending on the company, I think that demoing a pair of bookshelves is a perfectly resonable way to determine if the towers are worth looking at. If the bookshelves and towers are voiced very similarly, then you can at least have an idea of what to expect from the towers, minus bass response and possibly a few other things here and there. Obviously that's not a perfect way of doing things, and hearing the speakers you're interested in is definitely a first choice, but a bookshelf demo is better than nothing. I expect Mr. Bambergs bookshelves would sound excellent, and more similar than different to his towers (minus bass response), at least giving someone a reasonable idea of what to expect.
+1. This is certainly true for my models. I am very careful during the R&D to have the SPL track the reference target, including polar targets. Generally one can infer that the bigger model will sound more powerful and full-range (duh). Even so, you should be able to quickly determine if the voicing of the monitor alone is to your liking, and many customers already have a subwoofer that they can adjust to fill in the bottom end on a temporary (or permanent) basis. Bottom Line: (IME) Tonal Balance is the first and last thing audiophiles judge a speaker by.
 

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