Over 20 Dead...........WTF????

J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
You hit the nail on the head with nuclear. It is the cleanest mass energy source that we know of and can be harnessed by us right now.
Provided, that is, that we can solve the very significant problems of how to store the waste and how to prevent leaks.
 
T

trnqk7

Full Audioholic
Give me a suggestion Joe of a cleaner MASS energy source...and be sure to tell the rest of the world. You'll make billions. There are obviously issues with everything...storing it under the mountains and such has worked so far...and we have plenty of those left.
 
Alamar

Alamar

Full Audioholic
A chaotic system is very finely tuned (we mathematicians refer to it as "sensitive dependence on initial conditions", which has become more popularly known as "the butterfly effect".) This is why a very small change (perhaps one degree in average temperature) can have such huge, widespread effects.
What you said is more or less correct.

I do however want to clear up one possible misconception [not necessarily yours]. Just because a butterfly flaps its wings doesn't mean that we'll necessarily head for a permanent ice age or the end of the world even if we have a "chaotic" system.

IIRC a system can be chaotic [dynamic actually] but still have a set of "attractors" so that the fluctuations of behaviour within the system appear to be chaotic but they are [more or less] self correcting to a degree so that a minor disturbance will not dramatically effect the long-term behaviour of the system.

I suspect [but have no proof] that our climate would be governed by a set of attractors. Therefore this may explain why we know that what we're doing isn't good but we haven't killed ourselves yet --- we simply haven't disturbed our balance point enough to break free of the attractor that our global climate is close to.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
I suspect [but have no proof] that our climate would be governed by a set of attractors. Therefore this may explain why we know that what we're doing isn't good but we haven't killed ourselves yet --- we simply haven't disturbed our balance point enough to break free of the attractor that our global climate is close to.
Based on the magnitude of recent changes, the weather may be far enough off balance that it will shift to a completely different attractor than the one it has stayed close to for the last several centuries, which could prove tough on we humans.
(One change that coastal dwellers should be aware of is that when one hurricane churned up cold water, it temporarily stopped another from forming. The oceans may not remain cold enough to continue this process, so that hurricanes are liable to start forming in rapid succession.)
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
What you said is more or less correct.

I do however want to clear up one possible misconception [not necessarily yours]. Just because a butterfly flaps its wings doesn't mean that we'll necessarily head for a permanent ice age or the end of the world even if we have a "chaotic" system.

IIRC a system can be chaotic [dynamic actually] but still have a set of "attractors" so that the fluctuations of behaviour within the system appear to be chaotic but they are [more or less] self correcting to a degree so that a minor disturbance will not dramatically effect the long-term behaviour of the system.

I suspect [but have no proof] that our climate would be governed by a set of attractors. Therefore this may explain why we know that what we're doing isn't good but we haven't killed ourselves yet --- we simply haven't disturbed our balance point enough to break free of the attractor that our global climate is close to.
Excellent point. And a great read for the non-technical person is Order Out Of Chaos - Man's New Dialogue With Nature. It's written by Ilya Prigogine (Nobel Prize winner) and Isabelle Stendgers. It's not a new book, but it's still highly relevant.

I strongly recommend this book to anyone who is pondering the issues of nature that surround us. 'Tis one of my all-time favorite reads.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
It is good to see this post still going. Sure are a lot of very smart people that come to this forum. Just hope that continues. :):)
 
Alamar

Alamar

Full Audioholic
Based on the magnitude of recent changes, the weather may be far enough off balance that it will shift to a completely different attractor than the one it has stayed close to for the last several centuries, which could prove tough on we humans.
(One change that coastal dwellers should be aware of is that when one hurricane churned up cold water, it temporarily stopped another from forming. The oceans may not remain cold enough to continue this process, so that hurricanes are liable to start forming in rapid succession.)
While I obviously don't have proof [nor a doctorate in a related field] I doubt that we've already pushed the system to the breaking point because I would expect to see the weather fluctuations much greater than what we've seen so far.

The bad thing is that nobody really knows where the breaking point is. Just because we may not have "broke it" yet doesn't mean that we should necessarily ignore the potential issues. The bad thing is once it's broken it may be VERY difficult [nigh impossible??] to "fix".

*****************************************************
 
Alamar

Alamar

Full Audioholic
Based on the magnitude of recent changes, the weather may be far enough off balance that it will shift to a completely different attractor than the one it has stayed close to for the last several centuries, which could prove tough on we humans.
(One change that coastal dwellers should be aware of is that when one hurricane churned up cold water, it temporarily stopped another from forming. The oceans may not remain cold enough to continue this process, so that hurricanes are liable to start forming in rapid succession.)

Depending on who you listen to over the last 5-8 years ocean temperature haven't been going up .... NPR story
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Several reports indicate that 20% of US power needs will be wind powered by 2030. That's the same percentage of nuclear power in the US today. So yes it's all tied into the same grid, but more wind power means less coal burning. I think the calculation in the government report made it equivalent to taking something like 100 million cars off the road. 20% is pretty significant.
Wait until you get your electric bill when this happens. You would be amazed at how many people will be quick to jump off their soapboxes when they see a 100+ percent increase in their cost per kw/hour. Not to mention the fact that in order to generate that much power from wind alone, we would see wind farms from coast to coast, everywhere you look. It sounds nice on paper, but when you start calculating the costs of construction, restructuring the transmission and distribution systems, development, research, land purchases, permits, and materials - not to mention who wants to live in an area surrounded by 100-300 foot tall wind turbines (the whole, 'sounds great but not in my backyard' concept), it all just kind of starts falling apart at the seams. Solar? Forget it - as inefficent as wind energy is at solving our energy needs, solar ranks a good several notches below even that.

As a Field Manager for a Consulting firm working directly with all areas of the Commercial Power industry, I have a ton of insight on what will work and what will not.

My company has several teams of commissioning personnel currently out working at various coal-fired facilities installing "Scrubber" units, more officially known as FGD's (Flue Gas Desulfurization) units, which remove nearly 100% of the SO2 from the emmissions of coal plants. SO2 (Sulfur dioxide for those unfamiliar) is a leading contributor to acid rain. Furthermore, we have worked with dozens of utilities and EPC's putting in SCR's (Selective Catalytic Reduction) units, which removes NOx emissions from both coal fired units and natural gas combustion turbine plants. On the horizon - Carbon capture technology which is going to remove the big evil in everyone's mind... CO2 - at which point, emissions from coal fired plants will be about as harmless as the water vapor from the spout of your tea kettle. I will maintain and attest to the fact that we as mankind are not the great evils so many people are making us out to be, and our impact pales in comparison to most natural events that we have control over. Still, they want to put scrubbers and Carbon Capture units in place - fine, we'll carry our voices silently all the way to the bank, the more the EPA orders further units to be built and put in place. In our business, as much as we disagree with the concept behind it all, I have no problem getting behind it from a business standpoint. :D

This will take years to implement of course (CC tech), but is far more cost effective in the long run, and will extend the time we have to research more viable options of renewable sources, as coal (and even nuclear eventually) are a finite resource. Nuclear will be around for a very long time, like it or not, and it will only increaes in capacity, even as safety measures continue to be refined, waste disposal and handling becomes more efficient and secure, and (most impact on all) costs are kept in check and within reason (which most directly affects you - the customer).

Enough said for now - good topic (right up my alley), and good discussion.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
This is why I'm not a huge fan of wind for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm not a fan of anything with moving parts. And yes, I would jump off my soapbox if my bill went up by 100%. But for a few bucks, why not.

It's not impossible to have clean energy. Take Switzerland for example which is 57% hydroelectric, 37% nuclear, 3% renewable, and 3% fossil fuels. Granted, Switzerland is about 9 million people, but large or small, it's a matter of organization. I don't recall having a large electric bill when I was there. Interestingly, not much wind power being used by the Swiss and solar isn't as wide spread as their other systems. Perhaps it didn't favor their geography or they realize it plains sucks. I don't know.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
This is why I'm not a huge fan of wind for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm not a fan of anything with moving parts. And yes, I would jump off my soapbox if my bill went up by 100%. But for a few bucks, why not.

It's not impossible to have clean energy. Take Switzerland for example which is 57% hydroelectric, 37% nuclear, 3% renewable, and 3% fossil fuels. Granted, Switzerland is about 9 million people, but large or small, it's a matter of organization. I don't recall having a large electric bill when I was there. Interestingly, not much wind power being used by the Swiss and solar isn't as wide spread as their other systems. Perhaps it didn't favor their geography or they realize it plains sucks. I don't know.
Well, it's more than a simple matter of organization when you are talking a difference in scale between a country of 9 million people and a country the size and population of the US. Energy isn't something you can just wave a magic wand and make appear - infrastructure is the key, and simply maintaining it is a challenge that smaller countries like Switzerland don't have to contend with on the same scale. Not only do we face record demands in usage, which involve increased generating capacity, but keeping the existing infrastructure updated and able to handle the increased demand without failing. You see this in more rural areas, where substations and T&D haven't had any significant improvements since they were installed over a half a century ago. Just ask TLS Guy... :)
 
T

trnqk7

Full Audioholic
Or me...seeing how I work for a rural distribution coop...:)

Actually, we're doing quite good to stay ahead of the game as most of our line has been upgraded to 25kV from 12.47kV, and what hasn't, will be in the next few years. We are light years ahead of some other coops that participate in a listserv I belong to.

Long story short-we are trying to keep up with infrastructure upgrades/maintaining said infrastructure. Most of the time, we get it...sometimes, we don't. Like anything else. Demand is one of our biggest issues, especially as we control a couple areas that used to be rural, but have turned into rather "large" small towns now.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Or me...seeing how I work for a rural distribution coop...:)

Actually, we're doing quite good to stay ahead of the game as most of our line has been upgraded to 25kV from 12.47kV, and what hasn't, will be in the next few years. We are light years ahead of some other coops that participate in a listserv I belong to.

Long story short-we are trying to keep up with infrastructure upgrades/maintaining said infrastructure. Most of the time, we get it...sometimes, we don't. Like anything else. Demand is one of our biggest issues, especially as we control a couple areas that used to be rural, but have turned into rather "large" small towns now.
Well, TLS Guy and I had gotten into a lengthy discussion on the power infrastructure and delivery in his area a while back, as he was having significant issues with undervoltage and THD on the lines a good while back. That's why I mentioned him, but you are definitely correct - hardly any such thing as a "small" town anymore in terms of power usage. :)
 
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