Outlaw Audio LFM-1-EX Review

[gene]

Well, what exactly is a potential buyer supposed to do? Frustrating. It seems that both reviewers used the CEA standards, testing at 2m. If a shopper can only compare reviews done by the same tester because the testing methods are so variable, then it is really hard to make an educated choice. Most people don't have the time and don't want to pay return shipping in order to buy both and test in their own home. I guess it is what it is. Looking forward to the Audioholics review of the PB12-NSD, for sure.

Gene, where can you find the numbers SVS posted about the PB12-NSD's output? The only graph I see on their site is a frequency response curve and it says specifically that it should not be used to judge max output. How do SVS' numbers compare to the LM-1-EX that you guys tested?

As far as DVDIT's post, it seems that the PB12 might be a good option for your HT, given that it seems to have better ultra-low bass output than the Outlaw. I would guess that it would out perform a cheaper sub like the FV12, but that is pure conjecture on my part. Since you said price is not a factor, maybe you can get 2 of the models being discussed and settle the debate!

There are only 2 websites testing per CEA, us and S&V. Sadly Brent's #s haven't been very accurate and he is not open minded enough to even discuss them. We aren't perfect but we do have our data peer reviewed by the manufacturers prior to publishing. We've tested dozens of subs under CEA testing protocol and thus far only HSU disputed our results but of course they never published their own nor have they been repeated by anyone other than Brent who had to re-test the sub like 3 times to get agreeable results.

I will do a Preview article of the SVS sub and publish their CEA #s so you can compare. The SVS below 30Hz crushes the Outlaw and HSU sub as it should given the much more ample motor structure. This doesn't mean the Outlaw/HSU subs are bad. They are all good subs but personally I'd rather have the smallest box possible which I believe in this case is the SVS, but it is also more costly.

 

[ahblaza]

I haven't heard an HSU sub since the VTF-3 Mk2, but that sub was already pretty impressive. The Outlaw subs have always looked like a great value.



The purpose of the spikes was so that they would dig down into the carpet and make contact with a solid surface as well as keeping the sub from moving around.

Hi John, I know you have the Empire and I have it's little brother the Legend, would I benefit from a subdude or another type platform. How about a hard wood platform with spikes, I have thick carpet. I realize, correct me if I'm wrong, the dual side firing woofers kind of negate any side or front shifting of the sub (movement). I don't seem to have any problems with the sub shifting, how about you? Thanks John.
Jeff

 

[shadyJ]

As far as DVDIT's post, it seems that the PB12 might be a good option for your HT, given that it seems to have better ultra-low bass output than the Outlaw. I would guess that it would out perform a cheaper sub like the FV12, but that is pure conjecture on my part. Since you said price is not a factor, maybe you can get 2 of the models being discussed and settle the debate!

It looks like the LFM might do better in ultra low bass output in max extension mode, judging from S&V's review. It looks like the PB12 has now been tuned to 20 hz, where before, judging from Ilkka's measurements, it was tuned to, it looks like 16 or 17 hz. This may be a consequence of moving to a smaller enclosure or perhaps a filter.

 

[j_garcia]

Hi John, I know you have the Empire and I have it's little brother the Legend, would I benefit from a subdude or another type platform. How about a hard wood platform with spikes, I have thick carpet. I realize, correct me if I'm wrong, the dual side firing woofers kind of negate any side or front shifting of the sub (movement). I don't seem to have any problems with the sub shifting, how about you? Thanks John.
Jeff

I have a Gramma left over from my previous sub and it made no difference with the Empire, so I don't think you'll need one for the Legend. The cabinets are very sturdy and the dual opposed design means little vibration is transmitted from the sub to the floor.

 

[Ed Mullen]

Below is our CEA-2010 data set for the SVS PB12-NSD. This is 2 meters ground plane outdoors.

The data is dB Peak as reported by the software. For 1M add 6 dB. For dB RMS subtract 3 dB.

Excellent bandwidth uniformity is a primary SVS design goal. Note the max output of the subwoofer only varies 5 dB between 20 Hz and 80 Hz, indicating extemely good output uniformity.

We'll be getting a PB12-NSD over to AH and Josh for test/review soon. If you have any questions, fire away. Thx.

Freq/dB Peak/% THD/Comments

10/NA/NA/Insufficient SNR
12.5/89.1/15.2/Limited by 3rd Order Harmonic
16/99.0/19.0/Limited by 3rd Order Harmonic
20/107.5/10.4/Amp Limited
25/110.3/12.1/Amp Limited
31.5/111.4/6.3/Amp Limited
40/111.9/6.9/Amp Limited
50/112.0/3.6/Amp Limited
63/112.3/3.5/Amp Limited
80/112.8/3.4/Amp Limited

 

[gene]

Below is our CEA-2010 data set for the SVS PB12-NSD. This is 2 meters ground plane outdoors.

The data is dB Peak as reported by the software. For 1M add 6 dB. For dB RMS subtract 3 dB.

Excellent bandwidth uniformity is a primary SVS design goal. Note the max output of the subwoofer only varies 5 dB between 20 Hz and 80 Hz, indicating extemely good output uniformity.

We'll be getting a PB12-NSD over to AH and Josh for test/review soon. If you have any questions, fire away. Thx.

Freq/dB Peak/% THD/Comments

10/NA/NA/Insufficient SNR
12.5/89.1/15.2/Limited by 3rd Order Harmonic
16/99.0/19.0/Limited by 3rd Order Harmonic
20/107.5/10.4/Amp Limited
25/110.3/12.1/Amp Limited
31.5/111.4/6.3/Amp Limited
40/111.9/6.9/Amp Limited
50/112.0/3.6/Amp Limited
63/112.3/3.5/Amp Limited
80/112.8/3.4/Amp Limited

Thanks Ed. Your CEA data makes a lot more sense based on the frequency response curve Brent published.

Also, I thought it would be interesting to compare 2 meter peak data between the PB-12NSD to the HSU VTF-15H we reviewed. Here is what I come up with when all peak data is translated to 2 meter.

• Frequency (Hz) HSU VTF-15H vs. SVS PB12-NSD
• 20Hz 103.9dB(HSU) 107.5dB(SVS)
• 25Hz 109.8dB(HSU) 110.3dB(SVS)
• 32Hz 113dB(HSU) 111.4dB(SVS)
• 40Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 111.9dB(SVS)
• 50Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 112dB(SVS)
• 63Hz 115.6dB(HSU) 112.3dB(SVS)

As you can see the SVS PB-12NSD has almost a +4dB output advantage at 20Hz while the HSU VTF-15H has about a 3dB advantage above 32Hz. The SVS more robust motor structure and more powerful amp is what makes it have more bass output down deep. You can't cheat the laws of physics.

 

[Ed Mullen]

Thanks Ed. You're CEA data makes a lot more sense based on the frequency response curve Brent published.

Also, I thought it would be interesting to compare 2 meter peak data between the PB-12NSD to the HSU VTF-15H we reviewed. Here is what I come up with when all peak data is translated to 2 meter.

• Frequency (Hz) HSU VTF-15H vs. SVS PB12-NSD
• 20Hz 103.9dB(HSU) 107.5dB(SVS)
• 25Hz 109.8dB(HSU) 110.3dB(SVS)
• 32Hz 113dB(HSU) 111.4dB(SVS)
• 40Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 111.9dB(SVS)
• 50Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 112dB(SVS)
• 63Hz 115.6dB(HSU) 112.3dB(SVS)

As you can see the SVS PB-12NSD has almost a +4dB output advantage at 20Hz while the HSU VTF-15H has about a 3dB advantage above 32Hz. The SVS more robust motor structure and more powerful amp is what makes it have more bass output down deep. You can't cheat the laws of physics.

Thanks Gene. With a larger cabinet, a 15" woofer, and similar amp power, I would expect the VT-15 to have a few dB advantage in the mid/upper bass region. The PB12-NSD closing the gap and pulling away down deep is likely a difference attributed to system tuning frequency, suspension stiffness, and motor force factor characteristics.

All subwoofer designs are essentially a series of compromises driving toward a stated performance goal achieved within specified size/weight/power/cost constraints.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Thanks Ed. Your CEA data makes a lot more sense based on the frequency response curve Brent published.

Also, I thought it would be interesting to compare 2 meter peak data between the PB-12NSD to the HSU VTF-15H we reviewed. Here is what I come up with when all peak data is translated to 2 meter.

• Frequency (Hz) HSU VTF-15H vs. SVS PB12-NSD
• 20Hz 103.9dB(HSU) 107.5dB(SVS)
• 25Hz 109.8dB(HSU) 110.3dB(SVS)
• 32Hz 113dB(HSU) 111.4dB(SVS)
• 40Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 111.9dB(SVS)
• 50Hz 115.7dB(HSU) 112dB(SVS)
• 63Hz 115.6dB(HSU) 112.3dB(SVS)

As you can see the SVS PB-12NSD has almost a +4dB output advantage at 20Hz while the HSU VTF-15H has about a 3dB advantage above 32Hz. The SVS more robust motor structure and more powerful amp is what makes it have more bass output down deep. You can't cheat the laws of physics.

Thanks to both Ed and Gene for helping clear up some of the confusion. So, it looks like the PB12 has greater output in the Ultra-low range than the LFM-1-EX and they are pretty similar above 31.5 Hz. The numbers from S&V seem pretty accurate 20-31.5 Hz but inflated 40-63Hz.

Final question. Is it better to have a sub that is flat 20-80Hz like the PB12 but can't reach as high dB overall or one that has response curve more like the Hsu which sacrifices some deep impact for higher volumes? Does it depend on the room and listening preferences?

 

[Ed Mullen]

Thanks to both Ed and Gene for helping clear up some of the confusion. So, it looks like the PB12 has greater output in the Ultra-low range than the LFM-1-EX and they are pretty similar above 31.5 Hz. The numbers from S&V seem pretty accurate 20-31.5 Hz but inflated 40-63Hz.

Final question. Is it better to have a sub that is flat 20-80Hz like the PB12 but can't reach as high dB overall or one that has response curve more like the Hsu which sacrifices some deep impact for higher volumes? Does it depend on the room and listening preferences?

While more headroom anywhere in the pass band is never a bad thing, as I alluded to above, the bandwidth linearity profile of the subwoofer is essentially a function of the stated performance goals and attendant design decisions. It's all a careful balance of suspension compliance, moving mass, sensitivity, motor force factor and inductance profile, available amp power, etc.

We place a priority on high bandwidth uniformity and excellent deep bass performance (at the expense of 1-2 dB of output in the upper bass regions), because under most conditions the subwoofer will reach its dynamic output limits at the deepest frequencies first. So we make sure the subwoofer performs as well as possible in the 20-40 Hz octave to maximize deep bass dynamics and minimize harmonic distortion and woofer overdrive artifacts.

 

[timoteo]

Is it also true that your room can play a very big factor in your deep bass response?

I ask this because i own a VTF-15h & just 2 weeks ago i did a frequency response measurement & found that i was getting a very big increase in dB from 25hz down through 16hz. This was with it in Max Extension mode. So for me to get a flatter response i had to set it in Max Output mode which cuts down on the ultra low bass & gives a higher db in the 31.5hz-50hz range. Doing this & a few other adjustments & EQ i was able to get a MUCH flatter response.

So im curious if having the SVS PB12-NSD would have benefited me or anyone else in a similar situation?
Would it be fair to assume that certain subs, with their different characteristics, perform better in different shape/size rooms? (if trying to get to as flat as possible)

I ask this because it seems to be the norm for people to recommend one specific/favorite sub to people, whether they have a large, small, closed or open room. Im no expert, im just a hand full of years into this & am honestly curious to some of these questions.

Thanks!!

 

[timoteo]

Simply put, it seems great that the PB-12NSD has such good output in the Ultra Low Bass but if your room naturally boosts those frequencies then wouldnt you want a sub that is stronger in the range you room doesnt boost?

 

[GEN II]

I recently got an empire, but not really happy with the SQ. Seems to boomy and more like a "hum machine" to me, which is most likely due to the size of the room.

My my room is 19X23 w/15ft vaulted ceilings, Def Tech Inwall RLS III speakers, Denon AVR 990, 60% music. I am able to get a HSU 15H for $700 or get the Outlaw, so i am kind of stuck on where to go for better sound.

HSU 15H
Legends x2
Outlaw LFM-1-EX

 

[Ricci]

It sounds like you have an issue with your room acoustics and/or calibration and integration with your mains. Both boominess and hum issues can be related to this. Try turning the subwoofer gain down and the SW channel level in your AVR up to compensate. This should reduce the hum problem. Have you level matched the mains to the Empire? Can you take any frequency response measurements?

The experience that I had with the Empire was that it was far from boomy. If anything it had a "lean" character to it being a sealed subwoofer with a gradual roll off towards the deep bass. I would expect the other subs mentioned to also sound boomy in your room. Possibly worse.

 

[timoteo]

All 3 subs you are considering are very capable & accurate. I agree that it is most likely a problem with your placement & possible your phase setting.

Have you tried reversing the phase on the Empire?

Have you at least done the "bass crawl" to locate a good spot to place the sub in your room?

Making sure you have the phase right & placement right can make ALL the difference in the world with SQ!!!

Boomy bass is normally due to room interaction coupled with the location of your seat. So before you go out & spend a dime try placing your subwoofer where you set, play some songs with steady bass or play some test tones between 20hz-80hz. Then just crawl around the room (yes crawl) & listen for the area in the room where the bass sounds trong but clean. Not bloated or weak. Then (if possible) place your sub in the location that sounds the best. If you have an SPL meter you can carry it in your hand while crawling & see where you get good output. Remember to check both Phase settings on the Empire. Have the SPL meter in hand at your seat & see which setting gives you more output.

This is a very stripped down version of finding a good location but it can help tremendously if you havent do e it yet. This may give you much better bass & save you a lot of $. If you have your sub in a bad spot it wont matter what sub you place there they will all sound horrible. But if you place it correctly it may suprise you to the Empire performance.

Only after doing all this would i recommend thinking about a different sub!! Because the Empire being a sealed sub should be less prone to boominess.

Now if you still dont like the Empire then id recommend the HSU VTF-15h. I have one & it is one of the best subs ive ever heard. But the Emlire should do you just fine!

Hooe this helps!!

 

[GEN II]

Really appreciate the insight and will try the things you suggested.

 

[shadyJ]

If you can get a VTF15h for 700, I say just do that simply because you can get one for 700. It won't solve all the problems you are having with the Empire, but that's a great deal!

 

[timoteo]

$700 for the 15H IS a good price & if i had my choice between the Empire & the HSU i would personally prefer the 15H. But definately check the phase & placement first!

(Holy... i re-read my previous post & didnt realize how many mispelled words i had typed. Guess i should slow down a bit when typing!! Haha)

 

[GEN II]

Yeah, I know it is a good price and hard to justify until i go through the process of this one. There is always a risk buying something used.

One advantage appears that i can turn the HSU sideways and the empire cannot since it has 12" on both sides and it would be against the wall on 1 side.

Like i said, I expected a lot more for $700. I recently put a 8" JL sub in my 55 Chevy truck and it made a tremendous difference and it was well worth the $300. Sounds awesome!

 

[timoteo]

A good 8" can do some damage, specially in a small cab like the 55'. One thing to remember though, you cant compare car audio to home audio. They are 2 totally different beasts. It is much easier to make the small space of a car sound killer. When you have a large area to fill combined with the different distances, phase alignment, room modes etc etc it becomes a math game.

Stoked to hear that the JL made a nice improvement though!!! I just bought a 10" Boston G2 for my work van. Im drawing up the enclosure plans. Gonna make my own box/center console. Im going sealed. I want it clean & tight......"thats what she said!"

Probably gonna power it with a Fosgate Punch amp. Gonna research the amp options a bit more.

ANYWHOOO!!

Keep us informed on whether or not the phase/placement recomendations helped!! If you get the Empire all dialed in correctly & find it doesnt impress you, then id consider the 15h. But my bet is that you'll be happy with the Empire.

PS: 15" subs hit low but not as hard as a 12"'IMO. If you want that chest thump, id ad either an HSU MBM-12 or a Buttkicker. I have both added along with my 15H & it gets scary just a thought....

 

[GEN II]

Not to keep this going, but i have a question about the 1 vs 2 sub thing after playing around with them last night.Since i am more concerned about SQ vs. impact and want more of the room evenly filled, why would 2 Empires of LFM-1-ex's not provide this result?

I hooked up the empire and my current ML dynamo 10" dynamo, placed in opposite locations and it appeared to me to fill the room better and gave me flexibility to to adjust vs. pushing the single empire.

Maybe i did get a bad one? When standing next to the ML, it sounds tighter, has more physical impact, but it just too small.