Out-Of-Phase Speakers

[mulester7]

.....(cupping hands to mouth)....HIGHFIIIIIIIGH, HAVE YOU TOOK THAT READING YET???.....

.....Guys, I gots to go watch my Grandson Keith pitch today in a tournament 25 miles away in Lonoke, AR....he's 9....have been working with him some....although I was never a pitcher really, I played baseball through college at UCA-Conway, AR....if they win at 5:15p, they play again at 8:30p....ladder.....

 

[CraigV]

How much current was he drawing when he pitched?

(Sorry, someone had to)

 

[mulester7]

How much current was he drawing when he pitched?

.....before or after the blonde in the blue-jeans walked by, Craig?....huh, missed a few readings there....47 minutes worth....

 

[Epetrone]

All the same

Since we are talking about AC, then wireing them backwards will have no effect on impedance. There is nothing in a crossover circuit that would limit current flow. Capacitors block DC so nochange there, resistors work either way (bi-directional), and coils (chokes) work both ways as well.

/-----c1------0 high output
/
(+)[
\
\-----L1------0 low output



(-)0--------------ground---------0
basic drawing, either way you wire it, current still flows through those same components.

 

[mulester7]

Since we are talking about AC, then wireing them backwards will have no effect on impedance. There is nothing in a crossover circuit that would limit current flow. Capacitors block DC so no change there, resistors work either way (bi-directional), and coils (chokes) work both ways as well.

/-----c1------0 high output
/
(+)[
\
\-----L1------0 low output



(-)0--------------ground---------0
basic drawing, either way you wire it, current still flows through those same components.

.....then why don't I get the same sound-quality wired either way, considering the AC current isn't experiencing any limiting from the components of the crossover?....does the order of going through the components of the crossover come into play?....we're not doing the standard 1-2-3 here, we're doing 3-2-1....whew, this is running me nuts....I stand to be admitted to The Drooling Academy before this thread is over.....

 

[Missionman]

if your speakers are out of phase, try checking polarity. positive terminal, to positive cable, to positive connector on your amp. and vise versa. and make sure both speaker cables are same length. no matter if ppl say its rubbish, it isnt, mine were badly out phased until i cut both cables same length, no phase out snyc now

 

[mulester7]

if your speakers are out of phase, try checking polarity. positive terminal, to positive cable, to positive connector on your amp. and vise versa. and make sure both speaker cables are same length. no matter if ppl say its rubbish, it isn't, mine were badly out phased until i cut both cables same length, no phase out sync now

.....you're right, MissionMan, both runs of speaker-wire to the mains, the surrounds, and signal-to-the-subs should be the same length, ideally.....what I'm talking about is to intentionally cross-wire a pair of speakers out-of-phase.....

.....this thread will resume within 24 hours, hopefully....get ready to hear the craziest thing you've ever heard in stereo history....won't apply very much to receivers, but certainly could....you Guys who have a couple of 2-channel amps that will bridge laying around you're not currently using, that work fine, will be most able to try what I'm doing.....

.....you Guys have now received enough information to be able to tell me what I'm doing....first correct guess gets some bbq-sauce for chikin mailed to them.....


.....eventually.....

 

[Votrax]

The speaker voice coil is a linear motor. If you swap the leads the speaker cone will move inward instead of outward. Since they are designed to move outward the efficiency is reduced. Having one out of phase will also cancel out the others to some degree.

 

[mulester7]

If you swap the leads the speaker cone will move inward instead of outward. Since they are designed to move outward the efficiency is reduced.

.....Votrex, you lose me on that last part....I honestly "hear" the efficiency of the speaker increase as per crispness, and don't really care what the impedance measured turns out to be, to be honest....if anyone tries any of this, don't be afraid to turn the volume up to reference-levels....play it like you do when she ain't home....but I'll warn you, you'll be satisfied with much lower volume/spl levels....now think of significant others....your front soundstage speakers will sound like they tripled in value....I'm serious.....

 

[highfigh]

and make sure both speaker cables are same length. no matter if ppl say its rubbish, it isn't, mine were badly out phased until i cut both cables the same length, no phase out snyc now

Believe that if you want but at 20KHz, to throw the signal 180° out of phase, you would need more than 98,000' of extra wire on one side, assuming C (Speed of light) = 186282 miles/sec. The signal moves about one foot in one nanosecond and our ears can't hear anything close to that kind of resolution.

 

[highfigh]

The speaker voice coil is a linear motor. If you swap the leads the speaker cone will move inward instead of outward. Since they are designed to move outward the efficiency is reduced. Having one out of phase will also cancel out the others to some degree.

Going in doesn't cost any efficiency by itself but when one moves in and one moves out, the phase cancellation does.

 

[Votrax]

Going in doesn't cost any efficiency by itself but when one moves in and one moves out, the phase cancellation does.

The sound wave is going the wrong way so I would say that is less efficient. So if you wire all your speakers out of phase there would be no difference since there would be no phase cancellation?

 

[highfigh]

The sound wave is going the wrong way so I would say that is less efficient. So if you wire all your speakers out of phase there would be no difference since there would be no phase cancellation?

Half of the signal makes the speakers move inward, regardless of the wiring configuration. How does this conflict with your idea? You can wire all speakers with the negative wire, from the negative amp terminal, to the positive speaker terminal and the SPL will be the same. It's when one or more speaker is wired wrong that cancellations occur and acoustical energy is lost.

 

[Votrax]

Half of the signal makes the speakers move inward, regardless of the wiring configuration. How does this conflict with your idea? You can wire all speakers with the negative wire, from the negative amp terminal, to the positive speaker terminal and the SPL will be the same. It's when one or more speaker is wired wrong that cancellations occur and acoustical energy is lost.

The speaker should move outward first then inward and not the other way around. Try wiring all your speakers out of phase and tell me they sound the same. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Joeteck]

.....you're right, MissionMan, both runs of speaker-wire to the mains, the surrounds, and signal-to-the-subs should be the same length, ideally.....

You know this is almost impossible to do, right? You would have to have a perfect room. Either a square or a rectangle. The receiver needs to be in the absolute center of the room. All speakers to the left need to have their speaker wire go in that direction only, as well as the right side. But unfortunately, based on your wire theory, the surrounds would be out of phase with the mains, and visa versa with the back surrounds.. Seems like a loose loose situation. Only way this can be done is to have every speaker made to be wireless, which then every speaker would be exactly the same. But I still think its rubbish no matter how you slice it.

 

[mulester7]

You know this is almost impossible to do, right? You would have to have a perfect room. Either a square or a rectangle. The receiver needs to be in the absolute center of the room. All speakers to the left need to have their speaker wire go in that direction only, as well as the right side

.....Joe, I was careful to add the word, "ideally".....

But unfortunately, based on your wire theory, the surrounds would be out of phase with the mains, and vise-versa with the back surrounds..

.....I don't understand why you would say the surrounds would be out-of-phase if they're wired correctly.....

 

[Joeteck]

.....Joe, I was careful to add the word, "ideally"..........I don't understand why you would say the surrounds would be out-of-phase if they're wired correctly.....

Who brought up speaker wire lengths???

Well, you said that all the wires would have to be the same length to be in phase right? Well receiver to mains, and receiver to surrounds would be different lengths than the mains. therefore the speaker wires will be all different. I'm just repeating what you said.

Anyway, non the less, if you do what I think you're going to do, you're essentially doing matrix surround from two speakers. If you put them out of phase both speakers it will simulate sound coming behind you. Its pretty neat actually. I did this in the day when I used my Lafayette and Marrantz receivers. Canceled the lows out, but if you put another pair in phase what neat stuff happens!

 

[mulester7]

Who brought up speaker wire lengths???

Well, you said that all the wires would have to be the same length to be in phase right? Well receiver to mains, and receiver to surrounds would be different lengths than the mains. therefore the speaker wires will be all different. I'm just repeating what you said.

.....no, Joe, I said ideally the speaker-wires to the mains would be the same length, and surrounds speaker-wires would the be the same length also....nothing was said about mismatched wires bringing an out-of-phase condition.....

Anyway, non the less, if you do what I think you're going to do, you're essentially doing matrix surround from two speakers. If you put them out of phase both speakers it will simulate sound coming behind you. Its pretty neat actually. I did this in the day when I used my Lafayette and Marrantz receivers. Canceled the lows out, but if you put another pair in phase what neat stuff happens!

....neat stuff does happen, Joe, but I don't think the term matrix-surround applies....matrix-surround, when first introduced way-back, was a joke to me, and I suspect it hasn't gotten any better since....in matrix-surround, no cross-wiring out-of-phase happens to any speaker.....

 

[Joeteck]

.....no, Joe, I said ideally the speaker-wires to the mains would be the same length, and surrounds speaker-wires would the be the same length also....nothing was said about mismatched wires bringing an out-of-phase condition.........neat stuff does happen, Joe, but I don't think the term matrix-surround applies....matrix-surround, when first introduced way-back, was a joke to me, and I suspect it hasn't gotten any better since....in matrix-surround, no cross-wiring out-of-phase happens to any speaker.....

I know... But what you're going to do will simulate this in an analog environment.

For instance, take a 4 channel stereo receiver Main "A" Left channel out of phase of MAIN "A" right. MAIN "B" put the right channel out of phase of the MAIN "B" left. Try it.

 

[highfigh]

The speaker should move outward first then inward and not the other way around. Try wiring all your speakers out of phase and tell me they sound the same. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I understand that a positve impulse should make the speakers move out but have you ever measured the output from speakers with an RTA or SPL meter? It doesn't show a difference unless it's only one speaker or driver and phase cancellations are occurring.

I didn't say they will sound the same. In fact, I have posted in more than one thread that it sounds different but the acoustical energy is the same. I have reversed the polarity of my speaker wires on every system I have owned, in every place I have lived. in some rooms, it sounds better, some worse, but the difference has always been audible.